GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

I saw some speculation on Wccftech about the number of cache chiplets on Ryzen 7000X3D. For example, a 7900X3D or 7950X3D might have two core chiplets but AMD might only give one of them the 64 MB of extra cache.

Aside from making it cheaper and allowing AMD to send more cache chiplets to Epyc customers, it could also get the market and developers prepared for AMD's own hybrid designs. There was a rumor about Zen 5 + Zen 4C for the desktop. The main difference in Zen 4C chiplets is likely to be a massive reduction in L3 cache to make it smaller. You could end up with 8 big, fast cores with regular or 3D cache, and 8-16 cores with less cache, Renoir-like amounts.

 

[Kikkoman]

Is there any significant reason to upgrade from my msi b450 tomahawk motherboard when going from a 2600x to a 5600x? From what i've read its not looking worth the extra $150-$200 to get a b550/x570.

 

[Gatdam Animal Person]

Is there any significant reason to upgrade from my msi b450 tomahawk motherboard when going from a 2600x to a 5600x? From what i've read its not looking worth the extra $150-$200 to get a b550/x570.

I considered the same thing, though my PC has a MSI b350 tomahawk motherboard instead, which doesn't "officially" supports Zen 3 cpus. I searched online and found a beta BIOS update that would allow me to upgrade, at the cost of USB 3 ports.

If you can run your new CPU just fine, then don't bother with a new MB.

 

[Lichen Bark]

Are the GPU manufacturer's ever going to fix this "coil whine" issue? What would be involved with correcting this at a hardware level? Are we stuck with GPU's sounding like they are frying the worlds tiniest basket of french fries forever?

 

[Judge Dredd]

Is there any significant reason to upgrade from my msi b450 tomahawk motherboard when going from a 2600x to a 5600x? From what i've read its not looking worth the extra $150-$200 to get a b550/x570.

No. But I do see B550s going for £40 used, so if your country has a better second hand market than the UK, you can get them really cheap if you're willing to go second hand.

Are the GPU manufacturer's ever going to fix this "coil whine" issue? What would be involved with correcting this at a hardware level? Are we stuck with GPU's sounding like they are frying the worlds tiniest basket of french fries forever?

I was told coil whine was a thing of the past. I couldn't find any information on it when looking for a montherboard.

 

[Just Some Other Guy]

I was told coil whine was a thing of the past. I couldn't find any information on it when looking for a montherboard.

It isn't, and I've seen many more mentions of it with this current gpu generation.

 

[Manul Otocolobus]

It isn't, and I've seen many more mentions of it with this current gpu generation.

Yeah, due to the nature of coil whine, it cant really ever be "solved". It's going to happen now and forever, just to varying degrees.

 

[Judge Dredd]

So what's the best way to avoid/minimise it? I thought it was bad shielding between the motherboard and gpu?

 

[byuu]

So what's the best way to avoid/minimise it? I thought it was bad shielding between the motherboard and gpu?

Coil whine is caused by the coil physically vibrating like a speaker. You don't need shielding, you need dampening.

 

[Kosher Dill]

Coil whine is caused by the coil physically vibrating like a speaker. You don't need shielding, you need dampening.

It needs to be tunable so you can make your GPU talk.

 

[Manul Otocolobus]

So what's the best way to avoid/minimise it? I thought it was bad shielding between the motherboard and gpu?

Nope, not a shielding issue. It's due to high current in the coil causing vibrations which cause coil whine. The only way to minimize it is to run less current through it, but on high workloads, that isn't reasonable, unless you are willing to sacrifice performance. Undervolting may reduce it some.

It needs to be tunable so you can make your GPU talk.

Actually, it is possible to change the frequency and amplitude by varying the current through the coil, so it is tunable.

Also, it is possible to confuse coil whine and capacitor squeal. They sound very similar. Capacitor squeal is much worse, since that means failure of the cap is imminent.

 

[TheRedChair]

I saw some speculation on Wccftech about the number of cache chiplets on Ryzen 7000X3D. For example, a 7900X3D or 7950X3D might have two core chiplets but AMD might only give one of them the 64 MB of extra cache.

Aside from making it cheaper and allowing AMD to send more cache chiplets to Epyc customers, it could also get the market and developers prepared for AMD's own hybrid designs. There was a rumor about Zen 5 + Zen 4C for the desktop. The main difference in Zen 4C chiplets is likely to be a massive reduction in L3 cache to make it smaller. You could end up with 8 big, fast cores with regular or 3D cache, and 8-16 cores with less cache, Renoir-like amounts.

The problem with this is that AMD really have not IMHO changed course with their Infinity Fabric. This still means that there are going to be issues with CPU memory clock speeds that will effect performance.

The concept of the Infinity Fabric is over 6 years now. This is old tech. It's not bad but it is also not game changing. IMHO AMD let Intel off the hook and now they are becoming competitive once again. When you are in business and you have an good advantage over your competing businesses, you do as much as you can to continue that. IMHO they did not.

Next about the X3D? Why am I going to pay a premium for a CPU that is essentially a 1 trick pony.
The biggest seller as I remember a few weeks ago was not the 5800X3D which was going for $450, it was the 5700X @65 watts. for 299 back then, It has gone down in price to around $250 last week.

People are getting more concern with their electric bill right now than having their computer be turned into another space heater.

and IMHO Wccftech is the Enquire of tech sites which I don't ever bother to look at them anymore.
If you want a solid tech site either guru3d.com or techpowerup.com

 

[Manul Otocolobus]

If you want a solid tech site either guru3d.com or techpowerup.com

I second both of those sites. I also suggest notebookcheck.com (if it comes up not in your preferred language, click the flag at the top to change it) for detailed laptop info.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

The problem with this is that AMD really have not IMHO changed course with their Infinity Fabric. This still means that there are going to be issues with CPU memory clock speeds that will effect performance.

The concept of the Infinity Fabric is over 6 years now. This is old tech. It's not bad but it is also not game changing. IMHO AMD let Intel off the hook and now they are becoming competitive once again. When you are in business and you have an good advantage over your competing businesses, you do as much as you can to continue that. IMHO they did not.

Next about the X3D? Why am I going to pay a premium for a CPU that is essentially a 1 trick pony.
The biggest seller as I remember a few weeks ago was not the 5800X3D which was going for $450, it was the 5700X @65 watts. for 299 back then, It has gone down in price to around $250 last week.

People are getting more concern with their electric bill right now than having their computer be turned into another space heater.

and IMHO Wccftech is the Enquire of tech sites which I don't ever bother to look at them anymore.
If you want a solid tech site either guru3d.com or techpowerup.com

I second both of those sites. I also suggest notebookcheck.com (if it comes up not in your preferred language, click the flag at the top to change it) for detailed laptop info.

I use all four of those sites. TechPowerUp mainly for the GPU database.

Wccftech is fun because it posts most of the leaks, a lot of news stories every day (covering a wider range of topics than e.g. Guru3d does), and it has rowdy comment sections full of fanbois trolling each other. The new redesign is kinda shit though.

In theory, X3D is not a one trick pony. The Milan-X Epyc CPUs with 768 MB of L3 cache certainly aren't being used for gaming. In practice, most consumer/personal software doesn't know what to do with 96 MB of cache per core. At least for now.

Yes, the price is not right, but that goes for most of the Zen 3 lineup until recently. The $450 MSRP of the 5800X (no V-Cache) was pure milking, but obviously people paid that price. In some cases because the 5600X was hard to find.

Ideally, enlarged 3D caches will become a standard feature on all but the budget CPUs, without a significant premium. That isn't going to be the case with Zen 4 this year, but the gap between the release of normal and X3D parts could be shorter this time around. So the prices might drop in tandem, unlike the 5800X and 5800X3D. 5800X3D might just disappear off the market as stock runs out, like other infamous Ryzen CPUs.

AMD is making improvements to Infinity Fabric, although they might be completely irrelevant to consumers. Also, it has been noted that the 5800X3D's cache improves the gaming performance of the CPU when using slower memory. So if a 7800X3D was only +$50 over a 7800X, it could be worth shifting budget from the RAM to the CPU.

 

[nigga that crab pollack]

the real problem is that you have to be a fucking nerd to understand this shit. i understand the minutae of all of these performance metrics and high end overclocking, but to the average person things are quickly becoming difficult to make sense of. that $50 value proposition is completely correct but the issue is how are you going to communicate that to a new PC buyer who doesn't even know what the fuck ram speed is?

there are so many factors at play to determine performance that you can't even give an honest 'that is better' when someone asks you what parts they should go with because they're trying to predict the future in a chaotic environment without a base of knowledge. and half of the time the marketing is outdated because the axioms people use like 'amd has better single thread performance than intel' are subject to change or haven't been true in years. i had some kid try and explain the intel tick-tock cycle like two years ago and it's like bro that hasn't been a thing since sandy bridge, who the fuck is telling you this shit?

 

[Judge Dredd]

the real problem is that you have to be a fucking nerd to understand this shit. i understand the minutae of all of these performance metrics and high end overclocking, but to the average person things are quickly becoming difficult to make sense of. that $50 value proposition is completely correct but the issue is how are you going to communicate that to a new PC buyer who doesn't even know what the fuck ram speed is?

there are so many factors at play to determine performance that you can't even give an honest 'that is better' when someone asks you what parts they should go with because they're trying to predict the future in a chaotic environment without a base of knowledge. and half of the time the marketing is outdated because the axioms people use like 'amd has better single thread performance than intel' are subject to change or haven't been true in years. i had some kid try and explain the intel tick-tock cycle like two years ago and it's like bro that hasn't been a thing since sandy bridge, who the fuck is telling you this shit?

It's not really a new thing either. Here's a video making fun of Hi-Fi shops in the late 70s early 80s.

What put an end to hi-fis being like was all-in-ones for the plebs. I don't know if audiophiles mocked them at the time the way the "PC master race" mocks console users, but I imagine it's the same.

A family member once got a computer and asked me if it was worth upgrading to the "gaming" package, which came with a 1030*. I told them no, but they went ahead and got it anyway. Of course, the teen in question never used it because it couldn't play anything they wanted so they stuck to their ps4.

For PC building to become normie friendly, system builders and parts makers need to stop pulling that shit. Settle on a few naming schemes would be a start. Stop selling low tier parts with names that imply something they aren't fit for.


*I think it was a 1030, but the 1030 plays "e sports" games well. So either he was playing games that were more demanding, or it was a worse card.

 

[nigga that crab pollack]

the thing is though, consoles are fucking their userbase pretty hard when it comes to hardware availability and stupid corporate DRM software bullshit. the fact that computers are even an option and offer some level of price options makes people with literally zero base of knowledge really want a computer. they've gotten very popular recently among people that, five years ago, wouldn't have bought a computer.

distant parents buying their kids things were doomed from the start, but my dipshit coworker who could hold down a managerial position willing to drop 2 grand on a prebuilt still ends up buying garbage. he's a dumbass but he's also done his research - he made the wrong decisions but he was also told the wrong information and he didn't second guess it. this shit is just complicated and people shouldn't listen to youtube reviewers or dumb charts unless they are seeking specific information. i'm an autistic retard so i like looking at charts, but the people who don't are fucked

 

[Blimp]

DDR to DDR2 wasn't particularly impressive and so on. At the initial speeds/timings that is

DDR2 ran somewhat hot, and it didn't help that if you wanted the speeds/timings that made it a worthwhile jump, you had to overvolt the high speed kits, the cheaper ones at least. DDR3 was a nice jump in the sense that it didn't feel like it was a mini-Challenger explosion waiting to happen, for example: before their SSD's, OCZ's reputation came from their interesting/unstable RAM that gave the finger to JEDEC standards, with fun heatspreaders that fittingly resembled a radiator grille. You got low latency and Corsair speeds at PNY prices, but the fact their Newegg pages stated in bold you HAD to bump most kits to 2.0v+ for full speeds means you're flipping a coin come Memtest



The perfect mid-2000's companion for your CoolerMaster V8, IME 3.0, and neon-lit Antec 1080

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

AMD throws shade at Nvidia over quality of graphics drivers​

https://www.techradar.com/news/amd-throws-shade-at-nvidia-over-quality-of-graphics-drivers

Yeah, I mean... the drivers are fine but why are fucking hotkeys enabled even when disabled? You have to enable hotkeys in the radeon menu, delete all of them, then turn it off, or it will hijack what you are doing. Even on Studio drivers! Jesus fucking christ! I don't want to record 9 seconds of desktop then I miss a key. Something like ctrl-shift-i should not screengrab photoshop. It's way worse than the Windows Xbox gamer shit, both of them are almost a virus.

It's sort of the old "we have solutions" vs "I don't have a problem".

 

[Stasi]

I wasn't looking to upgrade from my i7 4790 but just started a new job and one of the corpo perks is a 60% discount on certain purchases including PC components. Its a use it or lose it perk so I'm leaving money on the table if I don't utilize it so thinking of building a new PC. I've got an RTX 3050 so would be building around that and dual 1080p and 1200p 60Hz monitors.

I'm leaning towards an AMD processor, can't say why, I think its just media exposure - most of the tech channels I follow focus on emulation and iGPUs and its very AMD focused. Is there a significant difference between say R5 5600/g/x or 5700/g/x. There is a decent price increase from a 5600 up to 5700x and I don't know if its better used towards more RAM or storage. It would be for web browsing, vidya and emulation. I don't do any media editing or anything like that.