George RR Martin, his fanboys, and former fanbase

[The Great Chandler]

My most generous interpretation is he just took a warped aspect of historical monarchies (Europe, Pharoahs) and turned it up to 11 for his fantasy society. But yeah ...

If he at least said it was just his own imagination of a hyperrealistic fantasy and not an attempt on medieval historical realism, it'd be at least easier to forgive his work.

 

[Chris_Stuckmann]

For all its faults, ASOIAF is still one of the greatest fantasy series of all time. George RR Martin is no Tolkien, but he's still better than most fantasy writers (hell, writers period) when it comes to prose, character, and story. I'd rather have GRRM over Brandon Sanderson any day of the week.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

I also hated how Tyrion, blindly supported her throughout this, because he "believed in her". It was completely out of character based on earlier seasons.

I think D&D just took this one popular theory they've read (I know they have an account in Westeros.org) and used it because they love Tyrion and think they understood the character. Personally, I think it's Victarion the one who's gonna meet Dany, take her to Westeros, and tell her all about her father without any lie or embellishment, because that's how Victarion is. Tyrion will or try to help Dany, of course, but he has nothing to bargain with. Victarion has the fleet and men that Dany needs.

 

[TheHarbinger]

For all its faults, ASOIAF is still one of the greatest fantasy series of all time. George RR Martin is no Tolkien, but he's still better than most fantasy writers (hell, writers period) when it comes to prose, character, and story. I'd rather have GRRM over Brandon Sanderson any day of the week.

The series is not even finished. If the books end like the show it will be a dead franchise within a decade of the final book. The only way to truly save the ASOIAF franchise in terms of relevance is a full scale reboot of the entire universe like Marvel or DC Comics do every couple of decades. Reboot the entire series starting with maybe Robert's Rebellion or a generation before that. And license the series to literally anyone who wants to write in it like Marvel or Star Wars or some major franchise where there are so many characters and stories that no one can keep track.

ASOIAF is becoming more and more like Star Wars at this point and it is not even done with its first story. It is just mass marketed garbage that too many big companies have their hands in so it gets endlessly promoted due to corporate influence more than actual word of mouth. Star Wars has not been good since the 80s. But it has been a cultural powerhouse since then because the brand is everywhere. Roller coasters, video games, toys, comics, books, movies, shows, posters, commercials, and so on. How many people really care about Star Wars? Yet how many people know about Star Wars?

This is how ASOIAF is. Everyone knows about Game of Thrones. But no one cares. No one cares. So GRRM is doing like George Lucas did. And letting every company have his license for ASOIAF to churn out whatever they want. Card games, toys, posters, video games, comics, prequels, art books. Sure GRRM has not put out another book in the main series in a decade. But dozens of other ASOIAF projects have come out in that time to keep the brand active.

ASOIAF is like Coca Cola or Pepsi. Everyone knows Coca Cola and Pepsi. Yet they spend more on advertising than almost any companies in the world. Why? Because they are building brand loyalty and getting you to invest in the name to the point where you see 'Pepsi' and you instinctively buy. They put Pepsi products near the checkout to get those impulse buys and place the logos at eye level for maximum exposure. Just like when House of the Dragon premiers it will be mass promoted more than anything HBO has ever done. Log into HBO Max guess what show will be promoted? Do you need cancer causing bubbly liquid? No. But the brand is a huge part of your life because it has been mass advertised to you. Do you need more garbage fantasy novels and stories from GRRM? No. But the mass advertising will convince you that you do.

You need to watch House of the Dragon because everyone is. Do you want to miss out on the cultural phenomenon that is Game of Thrones Part Two? Do you want to see the greatest fantasy adventure of all time? Do you want to fuck hot chicks and have eight pack abs like the models in the Coca Cola advertisements do?

 

[Chris_Stuckmann]

The series is not even finished. If the books end like the show it will be a dead franchise within a decade of the final book. The only way to truly save the ASOIAF franchise in terms of relevance is a full scale reboot of the entire universe like Marvel or DC Comics do every couple of decades. Reboot the entire series starting with maybe Robert's Rebellion or a generation before that. And license the series to literally anyone who wants to write in it like Marvel or Star Wars or some major franchise where there are so many characters and stories that no one can keep track.

ASOIAF is becoming more and more like Star Wars at this point and it is not even done with its first story. It is just mass marketed garbage that too many big companies have their hands in so it gets endlessly promoted due to corporate influence more than actual word of mouth. Star Wars has not been good since the 80s. But it has been a cultural powerhouse since then because the brand is everywhere. Roller coasters, video games, toys, comics, books, movies, shows, posters, commercials, and so on. How many people really care about Star Wars? Yet how many people know about Star Wars?

This is how ASOIAF is. Everyone knows about Game of Thrones. But no one cares. No one cares. So GRRM is doing like George Lucas did. And letting every company have his license for ASOIAF to churn out whatever they want. Card games, toys, posters, video games, comics, prequels, art books. Sure GRRM has not put out another book in the main series in a decade. But dozens of other ASOIAF projects have come out in that time to keep the brand active.

ASOIAF is like Coca Cola or Pepsi. Everyone knows Coca Cola and Pepsi. Yet they spend more on advertising than almost any companies in the world. Why? Because they are building brand loyalty and getting you to invest in the name to the point where you see 'Pepsi' and you instinctively buy. They put Pepsi products near the checkout to get those impulse buys and place the logos at eye level for maximum exposure. Just like when House of the Dragon premiers it will be mass promoted more than anything HBO has ever done. Log into HBO Max guess what show will be promoted? Do you need cancer causing bubbly liquid? No. But the brand is a huge part of your life because it has been mass advertised to you. Do you need more garbage fantasy novels and stories from GRRM? No. But the mass advertising will convince you that you do.

You need to watch House of the Dragon because everyone is. Do you want to miss out on the cultural phenomenon that is Game of Thrones Part Two? Do you want to see the greatest fantasy adventure of all time? Do you want to fuck hot chicks and have eight pack abs like the models in the Coca Cola advertisements do?

Holy projection. You're criticizing ASOIAF by bringing up a bunch of irrelevant shit that got released after Dance with Dragons. The actual five books that make up the series are good. I'm not going to watch House of the Dragon. I didn't even watch the entirety of the Game of Thrones TV show. Nor have I watched the last four or five installments of the Star Wars franchise. Nor do I drink Coca Cola. Just because you're heartbroken over the TV show turning to shit doesn't mean I have to be. I dropped the show after season 6 lol.

If the biggest problems you have with ASOIAF are that it's unfinished and has too much crappy merchandise, that means the series is probably good. ASOIAF has decent prose, well written characters, and an engaging plot. It will still have those things even if it never finishes.

 

[Pokemonquistador2]

My most generous interpretation is he just took a warped aspect of historical monarchies (Europe, Pharoahs) and turned it up to 11 for his fantasy society. But yeah ...

If you read any summary or watch any dramatization of the real life Ptolemaic Dynasty, you realize they were pretty fucked up. If they weren't marrying or raping their siblings or offspring, they were killing them, because that's the way power was distributed. Any family members you didn't marry were just rivals you had to pick off lest they pick you off first. That sounds like something a "degeneracy taken to 11" fantasy story might do, but as far as I know, that's the only real life dynasty that's ever gotten that bad.

 

[Coptakhenaten]

If you read any summary or watch any dramatization of the real life Ptolemaic Dynasty, you realize they were pretty fucked up. If they weren't marrying or raping their siblings or offspring, they were killing them, because that's the way power was distributed. Any family members you didn't marry were just rivals you had to pick off lest they pick you off first. That sounds like something a "degeneracy taken to 11" fantasy story might do, but as far as I know, that's the only real life dynasty that's ever gotten that bad.

The Julio-Claudian Dynasty got pretty crazy but there is a lot of propaganda made way after the fact against them from Flavian and Antonine era writers, meanwhile the Severan Dynasty was a disastrous hodgepodge of power politics, depravity, and corruption, and even contemporary sources were saying this. They might be the closest to the Ptolemaoi but their insanity (Well in Alexander's case, his weakness and meekness) at least only lasted 40 years.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

So GRRM is doing like George Lucas did. And letting every company have his license for ASOIAF to churn out whatever they want. Card games, toys, posters, video games, comics, prequels, art books.

I think the comparison is unfair to Lucas. Up until the fatal move of selling the franchise to Disney, it seemed he cared about it and the content made was generally alright, even the prequels had, for all their faults, a sense of motivation behind them. If GRRM cared he would have finished the series rather than let it stagnate into irrelevancy.

 

[RandallBoggs]

Why people think Dany's the one who's turning mad at the end and not Jon when he's also a Targaryan? Aerys the Mad King was normal when he was young. Show Dany isn't book Dany: Book Dany is more contemplative and more able to self-reflection. She also has more emotions than Boss Bitch™ as in the show, where she never smiled or laughed. For all the shit she's gone through, she's still able to show compassion and enjoy simple things. The only moment when she's been ruthless is when the slavers crucified children to spit her, so she crucified them and it was very justified. Jon, otoh, has had a couple moments of rage and violence and he has a tendency to brood like his father. Yet, nobody says "oh, he will go mad like his grandfather!"

The whole "Targaryens are mad!" idea is very exaggerated, imo. They're eccentric for being royals and very entitled because they considered themselves almost gods, but that's not the same as being insane. Then most of our current politicians would be also considered schizophrenic.

For me it's mostly the incest thing. Jon has outsider genes while Dany is like 10 generations of inbreeding, so logically speaking between the two she has more of a chance to get kooky

Thank you for the clarification. I am glad at least in the book, her rampage through Essos has notable consequences, plus her young age explains her missteps. Obviously, the TV adaptation had to make her older, but I believe they should have adjusted her personality to better match her age. The only time, when I was somewhat invested in her story arc in the show, when she liberated the Unsullied. I thought she was finally going to do something interesting, other than fumbling around, but no. She had to settle down, tried to rule, royally fucked it up, promptly decided she is ready to take on Westeros and left Essos behind, in a mess, as you said. I also hated how Tyrion, blindly supported her throughout this, because he "believed in her". It was completely out of character based on earlier seasons.

Another thing you just reminded me of regarding Tyrion is that in the books he hasn't met Daenerys yet IIRC but he agrees to consul her not because of the faggy "I believe in her" show reasoning but because he's so bitter and hateful he just wants to destroy Westeros and murder his family, so of course he'd "join" Dany's side and encourage her to wreak havoc. But even that doesn't happen because now he's with JonCon and Young Griff (tl;dr book only plot about a kid who claims to be Rhaegar's supposedly murdered son Aegon but in actuality is much more likely to be a Blackfyre [tl;dr;tl;dr Targaryen branch house] and he's on his way to Westeros to basically do Dany's S7/S8 conquest plot) and Tyrion is very obviously manipulating him into doing stupid shit that will only end up in chaos and ruination because that's all he cares about anymore. He's not some benevolent kindly mastermind, he's quite literally a villain. ASX made a really good video on this
ETA I was wrong it's the other way around, he's with JonCon first and now on his way to meet Dany but the rest is essentially the same

 

[The Great Chandler]

I think the comparison is unfair to Lucas. Up until the fatal move of selling the franchise to Disney, it seemed he cared about it and the content made was generally alright, even the prequels had, for all their faults, a sense of motivation behind them. If GRRM cared he would have finished the series rather than let it stagnate into irrelevancy.

Not sure where I got this from, but I heard that George Lucas tried to find a director that would help him produce a proper prequel. It so happened to be that a lot of filmmakers were pretty deathly scared of taking charge in one of the most famous franchises, which gave him no choice, but to take on his own with a bunch of yes-men.

Though I could be wrong.

I'm still thankful for the cool prequel content that came out of it.

 

[Stalphos Johnson]

Not sure where I got this from, but I heard that George Lucas tried to find a director that would help him produce a proper prequel. It so happened to be that a lot of filmmakers were pretty deathly scared of taking charge in one of the most famous franchises, which gave him no choice, but to take on his own with a bunch of yes-men.

Though I could be wrong.

I'm still thankful for the cool prequel content that came out of it.

From what I've heard, it was more due to Lucas angering the Director's guild and Screenwriter's guild while making the OT, which wouldn't let any of their members work for Lucas. The writers and directors outside the system pretty much refused to touch the prequels for the reasons you said though.

 

[AnyballLecter]

Saturday Quiz.​

This slide is from a video by which passionate Martin defender and Youtuber?

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

This thread suddenly made me remember this video

 

[Gar For Archer]

Saturday Quiz.​

View attachment 3520952

This slide is from a video by which passionate Martin defender and Youtuber?

That's gotta be tongue-in-cheek, right? Even amongst book fans, his sex scenes are considered to be hilariously bad.

 

[AnyballLecter]

That's gotta be tongue-in-cheek, right? Even amongst book fans, his sex scenes are considered to be hilariously bad.

No, 100% sincere from the mystery pundit. The man is barely capable of irony.

I'm catching all these 'lunacy' stickers because my post does truly contain lunacy. Is the KF server going to judge me - just the messenger - to be the lunatic?

 

[The Great Chandler]

Saturday Quiz.​

View attachment 3520952

This slide is from a video by which passionate Martin defender and Youtuber?

The Dragon Demands?

 

[Open Window Maniac]

Show Euron is one of the silliest characters of all time. He reminded me of Jarjar Binks from Star Wars in terms of how over the top immature and idiotic his character was. Him dying and saying "I will be remembered.....as the man who killed Jaimie Lannnister" was probably one of the most absurd moments in the entire show from start to finish. Probably a worse line than Bran's "why did I come all this way" but overshadowed because the character was so inconsequential overall.

That was really weird because they way he looks towards the camera when he says it makes it come across as a fourth wall break. It's jarring to have that type of thing in a show that was very serious and self-contained in tone as Game of Thrones was.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

Never finished to watch it, did Euron really killed Jaime? I would have thought he got killed by the same brick that killed Cersei. I mean, it's like poetry, it rhymes.

I do agree that George's sex scenes are lame (most of them are, with very few exceptions), but they make sense in the plot. Perhaps the most infamous one is when Sam and Gilly have sex, but it makes sense for them to do it when they do it because both of them are grieving and needed human comfort after all the shit they went through. Sex scenes from the show are more like "LOOK, EVERYBODY, it's time for the shockingly nude scene of the week" like they need a quota. Theon having sex with Ros or "Play with her ass" scene added nothing to the plot except for memes, maybe.

 

[nikma]

Sex scenes in the books are mostly pointless and written because GRRM likes to write about little girls fucking .

He is a pervert

 

[Foltest]

The rightful bearer of the title "American Tolkien" is Robert Jordan. Change my mind.

View attachment 3510001

And not just in his writing. Jordan (real name James O. Rigney) was an absolute Chad, a Renaissance Man.

• Decorated Vietnam veteran
• Majored in physics at the Citadel (the West Point of the South)
• Worked as a nuclear engineer
• Theater and dance director
• Hunter, fisherman, poker player
• Pipe collector

Jordan was also very productive.
Between jan 1990-2000, he wrote 9 books and published 9 books in the WoT series, two of them in the same year ( I think he wrote both of the books at the same time or so).
I think he would have finished WoT way faster if he didn't die at the age of only 58.
He wrote also in different genres. Western, historical fiction and fucking dance critic.