George RR Martin, his fanboys, and former fanbase

[Ishtar]

Someone somewhere else(who I personally despise) wrote a fanfic on the battle of the green fork-where Tywin's plan ends up with him and Tyrion dead and the Lannister army routed, so poorly did they think of the plan's "realism".

I don't recall all the details, but a salient part I remember is Tywin is trying to kill Tyrion. That's it. And also banking Robb Stark will be present at the battle and take the bait of his left flank routing.

Some fans argue that Roose could have won the battle but literally threw it because he was already planning on betraying Robb-I don't agree with this, given that the war's outcome was an open game at that point. Roose may be ambitious but he's not an idiot. The most I can see is him doing what Martin confirmed-he kept his own bannermen back, and win or lose preserved his own vassals.

If he loses, then he retreats(as he does) in good order, his men preserved, if the Lannisters break then he defeated Tywin Lannister and Robb Stark is going to be obligated to give him a lot of rewards for such a stunning upset victory.

But yeah-also the battle of the blackwater doesn't work as much either. Firstly-medieval troops didn't disembark on the shore a la normandy, (at least that I recall-someone correct me), but would have done so further afield. Tyrion uses the chain wrong-it ought to have been used to keep Stannis' ships out of the blackwater rush. Yes the wildfire tricks kills thousands and destroys a lot of Stannis' ships-but they already are directly across the shore and in the books-the wreckage(the ships are concentrated in the river) allows Stannis' ground based forces on the southern side to use them as a bridge.

Simply keeping them out entirely, and using the wildfire as fireships were used in RL would have allowed Tyrion to hold the city much longer(as it happens the city is on the verge of falling within hours-when similar sieges in history-the defenders held out for days at least).

Not to mention Tywin and the Tyrells somehow made it hundreds of miles to hit Stannis just before they would have broken the walls-crossing this distance on barges is also...implausible.

 

[A Sentient Cloud]

It's a different continent. You might as well ask why the Italian city-states are more or less a footnote in the history of wars in the Islamic world. They're safe behind their fleets and armies, their mercenaries are getting rich, etc.

Africa and Europe are different continents too, and that hasn't stopped them from having economic and diplomatic contact since the Bronze Age. Look at the map. We're not talking about Easter Island here, Essos and Westeros are right next to each other. On a clear day you can probably see Tyrosh from Dorne. Hell, the Summer Islands are closer to Dorne than much of Westeros. King's Landing is as close to Pentos as it is to Oldtown. There should be way more interaction between the two landmasses than we see in the books, where the rest of the world might as well be Mars as far as Westeros is concerned.

I understand the GRRM's sense of geography is fucked, inasmuch as a trip from Westeros to Asshai and back and depicted as taking years, when going from the map Asshai is barely further from Westeros than the length of Westeros is from Dorne to The Wall.

 

[Ishtar]

Eh...Asshai is pretty far away. Like, its on the other side of the known world.

And there is plenty of contact between Westeros and Essos-Tywin hires that mercenary company in the books from Essos, and there are Essosi traders, merchants, an exiled summer islander prince, and the like present.

My read on the free cities is they are basically a combination of greek city states and italian ones. Thus they are more concerned with their own squabbles over trade, and likely see Westeros as a market for goods. None of them are technologically advanced enough to penetrate the continent beyond trade ties.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

What keep Westeros and Essos apart is full racism. Each think the other is a primitive savage and they might be both right...

 

[CivilianOfTheFandomWars]

The show doesn't have Strong Belwas, so there's no point in watching it.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

More issues I have with the supposedly good commander Tywin and his elaborate tactic at the time:

It kind of gets worse than that.

He sets this up to "Eliminate his Son and his Son's Dirty Peasant Tribesman"

Your..Son has shown up with..effectively a free army who ask for.."Weapons" and to have a couple of people talk in the war meetings..You know kind of like lords. YOU ARE GETTING A GOOD DEAL HERE YOU RETARD because no matter what force shows up you are going to have to arm them, and Half their price is arms. You are a master Politian you can listen to their requests when they wish to talk and listen to any good advise they might have.

What keep Westeros and Essos apart is full racism. Each think the other is a primitive savage and they might be both right...

"Everyone involved is a Retard" - A Song of Ice and Fire in a Nutshell.

 

[The Great Chandler]

Just wondering, but how does GRRM hold up military writing? Because it doesn't seem to hold up as well as many fans thought.

As mentioned above, for all of GRRM's supposed penchant for realism, he sure treats medieval warfare like it were the 20th Century (even 21th Century sieges like Fallujah in 2004 lasted waaaaay longer than just days).

 

[Oats12345]

Just wondering, but how does GRRM hold up military writing? Because it doesn't seem to hold up as well as many fans thought.

As mentioned above, for all of GRRM's supposed penchant for realism, he sure treats medieval warfare like it were the 20th Century (even 21th Century sieges like Fallujah in 2004 lasted waaaaay longer than just days).

But but but.... Rape and Whores!!

 

[Foltest]

Just wondering, but how does GRRM hold up military writing? Because it doesn't seem to hold up as well as many fans thought.

As mentioned above, for all of GRRM's supposed penchant for realism, he sure treats medieval warfare like it were the 20th Century (even 21th Century sieges like Fallujah in 2004 lasted waaaaay longer than just days).

his military writting is pretty much shit.
He makes a big deal out of Storms end was under siege for a year and the people was already eating leather on their boots.
For a Castle of Storms ends size, they would have stocked up on supplies so that they could last years.

 

[TheHarbinger]

his military writting is pretty much shit.
He makes a big deal out of Storms end was under siege for a year and the people was already eating leather on their boots.
For a Castle of Storms ends size, they would have stocked up on supplies so that they could last years.

His provisioning for the winters also makes very little sense. Like in this world of multiple year long winters every single castle should have store rooms and glass gardens or extreme provisioning methods for even the worst of winters. A place like Storm's End would have enough on hand likely for years in the event of a randomly quick winter or famine or drought. Especially considering how unpredictable and supernatural the weather is in Westeros. And with how often war is there should be advanced measures for rationing and barricades and blockades that effect food supplies.

A place like Winterfell that opens its gates for the surrounding smallfolks during winters would need to be significantly larger than it is described in the books and how it is presented on the show. Considering how harsh the winters are, Winterfell would essentially need to open its gate to the entire surrounding area for many miles. We are talking tens of thousands of people? Hundreds of thousands? And their animals? Are they just left in the cold to die every decade or so when a bad winter comes?

Like it could make sense that a bad winter means nothing anymore for Westeros when dragons can melt the snow and rescue a frozen city. But before and after the Targaryens they would be dead to the cold wreaking havoc on the wildlife and vegetation almost every decade. But even the dragons make no sense. GRRM tried to write in some realistic dragon related lore describing their diets but he went overboard and required dragons to eat like an army of sheep and cows every week. Dragons would be endangering the populations of the animals that they eat pretty quickly once they reach adult size.

 

[The Great Chandler]

Like it could make sense that a bad winter means nothing anymore for Westeros when dragons can melt the snow and rescue a frozen city. But before and after the Targaryens they would be dead to the cold wreaking havoc on the wildlife and vegetation almost every decade. But even the dragons make no sense. GRRM tried to write in some realistic dragon related lore describing their diets but he went overboard and required dragons to eat like an army of sheep and cows every week. Dragons would be endangering the populations of the animals that they eat pretty quickly once they reach adult size.

I find it odd how he treats dragons like they're mammals with high metabolisms, even though actual voracious reptiles like snakes and komodo dragons can go on many months without hunger just fine. At least 5 sheep can keep GRRM'S dragons going for a year or half at least.

 

[Stoneheart]

I find it odd how he treats dragons like they're mammals with high metabolisms, even though actual voracious reptiles like snakes and komodo dragons can go on many months without hunger just fine. At least 5 sheep can keep GRRM'S dragons going for a year or half at least.

Reptiles have a super high metabolism as long as they are active, the difference is that they have a super low one while inactive.
a dragon could sleep on a good meal for weeks but only fly for a day or 2.

 

[Mega Black]

His provisioning for the winters also makes very little sense. Like in this world of multiple year long winters every single castle should have store rooms and glass gardens or extreme provisioning methods for even the worst of winters. A place like Storm's End would have enough on hand likely for years in the event of a randomly quick winter or famine or drought. Especially considering how unpredictable and supernatural the weather is in Westeros. And with how often war is there should be advanced measures for rationing and barricades and blockades that effect food supplies.

This has always been a problem to me. On one hand, Winters that come for years at a time sound like a cool worldbuilding concept but with the methods used to preserve food and the way the nobility treats peasant farmers (ala murdering and raping them at every available opportunity) there's no way any of the noble families would survive a fucking five year Winter.

GRRM tried to write in some realistic dragon related lore describing their diets but he went overboard and required dragons to eat like an army of sheep and cows every week. Dragons would be endangering the populations of the animals that they eat pretty quickly once they reach adult size.

The problem with trying to approach all of this stuff realistically is that, like most fantasy authors, George is pretty bad at math. If you aren't really decent at it then you should probably eschew these things. His ideas regarding realism are more courted around the idea that life is miserable and shitty without air-conditioning and football games to watch, anytime he tries to do realistic number stuff regarding size, biology, or armies he tends to flub. It's not a deal breaker necessarily but it is pretty dumb.

Reptiles have a super high metabolism as long as they are active, the difference is that they have a super low one while inactive.
a dragon could sleep on a good meal for weeks but only fly for a day or 2.

That would honestly be more realistic and pretty cool. As a Targaryen, when you aren't using it or training it, your dragon is probably spending most of the day lounging or sleeping, sun-bathing, typical big lizard shit. You keep food on hand for when you need it to wake up and burn some shit, but you wouldn't fly it constantly. Kind of explains why dragons spend most of the day asleep with their hoards of gold (not an ASOIAF thing, I know, but still a neat little explanation.)

I guess this is why most authors just go 'it's magic lmao' and make dragons giant monsters that don't necessarily need to eat a bunch.

 

[AnyballLecter]

I think he just made it all up.

 

[The Great Chandler]

This has always been a problem to me. On one hand, Winters that come for years at a time sound like a cool worldbuilding concept but with the methods used to preserve food and the way the nobility treats peasant farmers (ala murdering and raping them at every available opportunity) there's no way any of the noble families would survive a fucking five year Winter.

The problem with trying to approach all of this stuff realistically is that, like most fantasy authors, George is pretty bad at math. If you aren't really decent at it then you should probably eschew these things. His ideas regarding realism are more courted around the idea that life is miserable and shitty without air-conditioning and football games to watch, anytime he tries to do realistic number stuff regarding size, biology, or armies he tends to flub. It's not a deal breaker necessarily but it is pretty dumb.

That would honestly be more realistic and pretty cool. As a Targaryen, when you aren't using it or training it, your dragon is probably spending most of the day lounging or sleeping, sun-bathing, typical big lizard shit. You keep food on hand for when you need it to wake up and burn some shit, but you wouldn't fly it constantly.

A good plot point would be how they have to stop the Targaryens' dragons. Learn where they keep them and kill them at their tiredest instead of just "well we starved them out lol" since that wouldn't be so simple to concoct. Though that would mean going through hoops like patrolling guards, corridors, and the chance of waking one up and having them turn you into a crispy human tender before you ever jab a spear into their exposed underbelly.

 

[Agarathium1066]

But yeah-also the battle of the blackwater doesn't work as much either. Firstly-medieval troops didn't disembark on the shore a la normandy, (at least that I recall-someone correct me), but would have done so further afield. Tyrion uses the chain wrong-it ought to have been used to keep Stannis' ships out of the blackwater rush. Yes the wildfire tricks kills thousands and destroys a lot of Stannis' ships-but they already are directly across the shore and in the books-the wreckage(the ships are concentrated in the river) allows Stannis' ground based forces on the southern side to use them as a bridge.

Generally in ancient or medieval battles if a force was attempting to land and there was an enemy presence waiting for them they'd attempt to land elsewhere. An example of this is the roman conquest of Great Britain when the celts shadowed them and did not let them land unopposed. You really don't want to fight on sand and if the enemy hits you before you can form up they'll have an advantage. The romans still managed it despite being attacked but that was due to their veterancy and discipline. In other such attempts the attackers would sometimes just fuck off because landing was like asking to have your army slaughtered. Going back and trying another time is a lot cheaper.

A direct attack on a city the way Stannis did it would likely never happen and would just turn into an easy way to lose a shitload of soldiers. Assaulting walls or any fortified position is always going to be vastly in the defender's favor. That's why the defenses are built and why they maintain garrisons. The Lannister troops at the capital were not equal in number but there was still enough that the force multiplication from having those defenses would have made it a suicidal move. There's also the simple fact that even if you have a titanic force taking the walls, then pushing through to clear the city, THEN assaulting the castle citadel as well (if there aren't even more internal walls which usually there are) would take a shitload of time. By then the relief forces would arrive without much difficulty and catch you with your pants down.

Mind you so is launching a bunch've Greek Fire +1 at the water and ships just outside your city when it could potentially blow back and set fire to your own city. Aforementioned city also has a fucking huge hidden store of MORE of the fire formula which could erupt like a bomb and kill you all but Tyrion's the sort who'd be desperate enough to use it.

 

[12345]

I find it odd how he treats dragons like they're mammals with high metabolisms, even though actual voracious reptiles like snakes and komodo dragons can go on many months without hunger just fine. At least 5 sheep can keep GRRM'S dragons going for a year or half at least.

This video popped up in my suggested and I thought about this thread. Granted it's the ocean but it's pretty informative.

 

[Ratzinger]

I find it odd how he treats dragons like they're mammals with high metabolisms, even though actual voracious reptiles like snakes and komodo dragons can go on many months without hunger just fine.

To be fair, there is no reason to assume dragons are literally reptiles. They could be more like dinosaurs, who were warm blooded.
Given that we see dragons fly over icy wastelands without signs of discomfort or lethargy, it seems highly likely they have effective way of heat management.
Then again, if we speculate about cold blooded creatures that SPEW FIRE AT WILL, all comparisons with real world creatures are off.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

This has always been a problem to me. On one hand, Winters that come for years at a time sound like a cool worldbuilding concept but with the methods used to preserve food and the way the nobility treats peasant farmers (ala murdering and raping them at every available opportunity) there's no way any of the noble families would survive a fucking five year Winter.

Really if those massive winters (aren't they more like ice age? How do you even calculate a year?) were a standard thing then you'd have most of the agricultural plants and animals survive pretty much every temperature since evolution would make everything else die in that huge span of time.

 

[Oats12345]

My main problem. Was Martin being a shit head with Aragon becoming king in Lord of the Rings. "What's his tax policy?"

Yet in his story a cripple dude becomes king just on the spot.

Also I don't here anyone talk about tax policies in Game of Thrones or his books just noting but sex and incest. How shocking it is because it kills characters at random. When in reality it's just George realizing he wrote too many characters and needs to get raid of them somehow.