The Final Fantasy Thread

[Zeke Von Genbu]

The most impressive thing about FFXII is that it has the worst protagonist in the entire series. Say what you want about Tidus, but he has good qualities. The protagonist could’ve been Balthier, Basch, or even Ashe. But no, it’s Vaan. Who even is Vaan? What does he have compared to a successful sky pirate, a knight, and a princess?

Vaan is more a in-universe audience member who's designed to ask questions for the audience, he's not really the protagonist of the story you just play as him first. It is like the Locke vs Terra vs Celes situation in 6 where the protagonist changes as the story goes. You can technically not even use Terra or Locke in the world of ruin, but Celes you get a decent bit later then Locke or Terra. It is weird, but not something FF hasn't played with before. Ashe is the closest thing to a consistent protagonist of FF12.

 

[El Goblina]

Vaan is more a in-universe audience member who's designed to ask questions for the audience, he's not really the protagonist of the story you just play as him first... Ashe is the closest thing to a consistent protagonist of FF12.

Yeah, imagine this. Your introduction to the game is Basch and Balthier discussing the intricacies of Dalmascan politics. To make it believable, neither character discusses matters he knows the other already understands. It would be opaque and obtuse to a new player the way FF13 was deliberately. Even 13 had newbies to explain things to for the sake of a comprehensible narrative. This is a specific case of the "Foil" trope. IDK if there is a more specific one. Explaining things to an ignorant character in-universe as a mode of narrative is a common trope. Gotta have a name somewhere, but I know the pattern, not how people discuss it.

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

Yeah, imagine this. Your introduction to the game is Basch and Balthier discussing the intricacies of Dalmascan politics. To make it believable, neither character discusses matters he knows the other already understands. It would be opaque and obtuse to a new player the way FF13 was deliberately. Even 13 had newbies to explain things to for the sake of a comprehensible narrative. This is a specific case of the "Foil" trope. IDK if there is a more specific one. Explaining things to an ignorant character in-universe as a mode of narrative is a common trope. Gotta have a name somewhere, but I know the pattern, not how people discuss it.

The term you're looking for is probably more something like "Stand-in for the audience" as Vaan "stands-in" for the audience's need for information by not knowing what's going on that character's in-universe would naturally know. When a piece of information is brought up that in-universe that the adults know, then Vaan is meant to ask "What's that?" which a reasonable audience member might have the same question.

Vaan has his issues, but he does his role as an audience stand-in fine.

 

[PS1gamenwatch]

Isn't XII in the same universe as Tactics?

 

[El Goblina]

Isn't XII in the same universe as Tactics?

The world is called "Ivalice" in both, but whenever I've looked at maps, they look nothing alike. I don't get this either.

 

[Dr. Geronimo]

Isn't XII in the same universe as Tactics?

The world is called "Ivalice" in both, but whenever I've looked at maps, they look nothing alike. I don't get this either.

From what I recall they were going to combine them, but was retconned to not be the case.

FF12 does share the same universe as the tactics advance games though.

 

[Local Degenerate]

The world is called "Ivalice" in both, but whenever I've looked at maps, they look nothing alike. I don't get this either.

This is allegedly due to the games being so far apart in time, the map has significantly changed.

In reality, it's because Matsuno is a coomer hack who just uses the same name world despite it being
1) A world with only humans
2) Literally imaginary
3) A world were combat is treated as a sport
4) Star Wars
or 5) A small nation in FFXIV

depending on the game.

 

[PS1gamenwatch]

Tactics did have a Cloud appearance

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

5) A small nation in FFXIV

This was just a Tactics/FF12 fan service section like many sections in FFXIV. It even has Ramza, Orlandeau, Agrias, and Mustadio who are considered Warriors of Light (chosen ones more or less for non-FFXIV people) in FFXIV's canon. Also Delita was actually Ramza's friend in that canon and mourned his death. It is just a giant "what if?" section.

Ivalice in FFXIV's canon was somewhere in the Dalmasca (actual nation in FFXIV's setting, which also has a Doma from FF6) area and had faded out of existence and was considered a myth for decades.

 

[Local Degenerate]

This was just a Tactics/FF12 fan service section like many sections in FFXIV. It even has Ramza, Orlandeau, Agrias, and Mustadio who are considered Warriors of Light (chosen ones more or less for non-FFXIV people) in FFXIV's canon. Also Delita was actually Ramza's friend in that canon and mourned his death. It is just a giant "what if?" section.

Ivalice in FFXIV's canon was somewhere in the Dalmasca (actual nation in FFXIV's setting, which also has a Doma from FF6) area and had faded out of existence and was considered a myth for decades.

This would be much easier to accept if the lore for slut bunnies Nu-veira were not a 1-1 lift of the lore from XII, right down to the location, and characters were directly lifted from the game. Right down to the model, IIRC.

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

This would be much easier to accept if the lore for slut bunnies Nu-veira were not a 1-1 lift of the lore from XII, right down to the location, and characters were directly lifted from the game. Right down to the model, IIRC.

Half the races are from FFXI with different names and marginal design changes, Hrothgar are called Ronso in a parallel world. Only the Au'ra/lizard people and to an extent that Roegadyn aren't some kind of reference and the latter are Galkas without tails. Hyur are just humans, Miqo'te are the Mithra, Lalafell are the Tarutaru, and Elezen are just elves.

Viera aren't even consistent within Ivalice as half the time they're furries and the other half they're bunny girls like Fran.

Fran is also in a very different position in FFXIV then she is in FFXII because she's some rebel general in 14's canon and Balthier doesn't exist, Fran if anything has more character in FFXIV then in FFXII. Ba'Gamnin is also in FFXIV and is an entirely different character in that game as he was actually part of the noble guard of the former royalty for the Ashe stand-in they haven't revealed.

FFXIV half the time is half its own thing and half some random reference to something else. That's just how the game is, FFXII's only unique because it got a whole raid series dedicated to it.

 

[Coldgrip]

Delita may be an asshole, but I don't think he is sociopathic or narcissitic enough to not feel he had done a good job by the end.

By the end Delita had become the very things he hated and originally fought against. Him killing Ovelia at the end then falling to his knees asking "My god, what have I done?" makes me think it dawned on him that he'd become the very monster he fought against.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Well, Tidus was memorable, for all the wrong reasons (HAHAHAHA).

Which is the best Final Fantasy and why is it 10?

Best Protaganist: Tidus. Most FF protags are either depressed or barely have any emotion. Tidus was very upbeat even when he should be more depressed.

Best Love Interest: Yuna. She’s a resilient, tenacious character with nothing but love in her heart.

Best Villain: Jecht. The constant threat of the whale, followed by Jecht being a hostage of circumstance.

Best Non-Human Character: Kimahri. Ummovable bannerman against bullism and a strong example of what it means to stand your ground and not GAF.

Best Town: Zanarkand. The Dream version of the city is great and I like the tall skyscrapers and the pillar of water which cuts through the city. The ruined Zanarkand is so melancholy and gets two of the best tracks in the game ("To Zanarkand" and "Someday the Dream Will End").

Best Minigame: Blitzball. Got hooked on the "Five-a-side" type gameplay.

Best Summon: Shiva. Descends from the heavens, "Here hold my shawl bitch" and damn near one-shots Anima.

Best Airship: Fahrenheit. Shit is big enough to run around in, has a shop and might as well have a fuckin' food court. Blackjack is a good contender, but functionality is lesser to the Fahrenheit.

 

[eternal dog mongler]

Delita may be an asshole, but I don't think he is sociopathic or narcissitic enough to feel he had done a good job by the end. Ramza not being rewarded for his efforts like Delita was feels more in-line with the virtues he genuinely cares about.

Delita wasn't an asshole though. His goal was to become king so he could essentially abolish the nobility and make them and commoners equal, and he used everyone in his way to get there. The only people he killed were scheming nobles. Well, and that one guy who pretended to be Cid during the execution but whatever. Cid, Valmafra and Orran were all good people so he let them go free.

Ovelia never knew what was going on because he kept everything to himself, and in fact in that one scene where Orran is about to tell Ovelia about Delita's plans to betray Glabados he ushers her away because she doesn't want her to get involved in this shit. Unfortunately, that led to her thinking he was a scheming tyrant just like what she grew up with, and she got stabby. But maybe she was right?

He's a pretty complex character overall and some of Matsuno's best writing.

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

Delita wasn't an asshole though. His goal was to become king so he could essentially abolish the nobility and make them and commoners equal, and he used everyone in his way to get there. The only people he killed were scheming nobles. Well, and that one guy who pretended to be Cid during the execution but whatever. Cid, Valmafra and Orran were all good people so he let them go free.

Ovelia never knew what was going on because he kept everything to himself, and in fact in that one scene where Orran is about to tell Ovelia about Delita's plans to betray Glabados he ushers her away because she doesn't want her to get involved in this shit. Unfortunately, that led to her thinking he was a scheming tyrant just like what she grew up with, and she got stabby. But maybe she was right?

He's a pretty complex character overall and some of Matsuno's best writing.

I haven't gone through Tactics as a whole in a handful of years so my memories might be foggy on some of the littler details and I may have missed a sentence or two that contradicts how I should interpret Delita's character.

Delita to me felt like he was purposefully trying to manipulate and groom Ovelia with his secretive nature and how he intended to make his plan work, whether he'll admit to that or not, so he could obtain the throne through her. Regardless of how he actually felt about her and her plight, Ovelia is a means to his ends and he will use her without question because to him it is justified given the current state of Ivalice and how he personally feels about nobility. Ramza even points this out and Delita can't deny him, but instead deflects by saying he'll give his life for her, but he still won't answer if Ramza is correct. It is more like he is trying to be right, but in some subconcious way he knows he is wrong.

Delita's goal to me felt like he was putting himself in charge to get back at all the nobles who treated him and his sister like dirt, especially the prick asshole Argath. It has its positives don't get me wrong, but Delita is driven by the events that affected him in the past which is why he is so distant and sometimes hostile with Ramza. Delita is unbending in his convictions, like he can't process that he might be doing something wrong. He mentions he'll give his life for Ovelia, but to me Ovelia didn't want to be part of any of this yet he has forced her hand to do so anyway. Delita wants his cake and to eat it too, he will not give up his own goals and that's what makes him and Ramza similar but also so different. I think because Ramza is such a self sacrificing person, Delita's unbending compromises come off worse then they are. Just something about the way Delita and Ovelia are just rubs me the wrong way, even if I would agree Delita ultimately made a better Ivalice with Ramza. Ovelia stabbing Delita is that moment where Ovelia finds out that she was used and make a last stand to do something that is wholly her choice.

He is still a king, just a more fair king and thus all the problems of monarchy will exist in due time. It isn't like he tried to upend the monarchy, he's just going to run Ivalice his way where he is at the seat of power. I find Delita an actually morally grey character as he kind of doing the right thing but he goes about it in some less then virtuous ways when is in stark contrast to Ramza who is just a very virtuous hero to an extreme. Delita's a great character and I love his dynamic with Ramza, but I still think he isn't really a great guy and I find his relationship with Ovelia is just not right. I personally felt extremely bad for Ovelia so maybe that's why I think Delita is an asshole.

 

[Someone in a Tree]

Isn't XII in the same universe as Tactics?

Square was really pushing the idea of connected Final Fantasy worlds around that time. They labeled all the Matsuno and Matsuno adjacent games as The Ivalice Alliance. There was also the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII and the Fabula Nova Crystallis umbrella they had for Final Fantasy XIII

 

[eternal dog mongler]

He mentions he'll give his life for Ovelia, but to me Ovelia didn't want to be part of any of this yet he has forced her hand to do so anyway.

Yeah, but what was the alternative? She'd get used by Larg or Goltana anyway, much like Ramza would eventually murdertrain the Templar Knights because they needed his sister so he sent them on the path to Cardinal Delacroix get it poppin' early.

He's basically "the means justify the ends" incarnate.

 

[Coldgrip]

Yeah, but what was the alternative? She'd get used by Larg or Goltana anyway...

Shit would of been different if she went with Agrias.

He's basically "the means justify the ends" incarnate.

He who fights with monsters...

Delita didn't start out that way, but by playing the power game and winning at any cost he became the monster he detested. The whole "ends justify the means" I always thought was a product of becoming said monster.

 

[Zeke Von Genbu]

Yeah, but what was the alternative? She'd get used by Larg or Goltana anyway, much like Ramza would eventually murdertrain the Templar Knights because they needed his sister so he sent them on the path to Cardinal Delacroix get it poppin' early.

He's basically "the means justify the ends" incarnate.

I'd say that if he wanted to be a heroic and good person, he'd stand for what he said and do she can to try to give what Ovelia actually wanted and not try and play her so he could get what he personally wanted then convince Ovelia she will be happy this way by being his queen when you have your own ambitions that give you a huge bias to convince Ovelia. Delita is not Ovelia's knight protector, he is an angry man who will cut down the world to get what he wants and he needs Ovelia. Delita put himself before Ovelia in the end and is punished for it when his pawn stabbed him, that is not a good guy thing. Is it pragmatic? Absolutely and is the much safer choice, but that's not being a hero or a great person.

Delita is a pragmatic and ambitious person, but those don't inherently mean you're not an asshole. Maybe by the ending he realizes his errors and tries to make it up to her on her birthday, but the foundation for their relationship is just fucked and he didn't really try to fix it until it was too late. Delita did too little too late.

 

[Berrakh]

View attachment 3663410

Which is the best Final Fantasy and why is it 10?

View attachment 3663492

Best Protaganist: Tidus. Most FF protags are either depressed or barely have any emotion. Tidus was very upbeat even when he should be more depressed.

View attachment 3663494

Best Love Interest: Yuna. She’s a resilient, tenacious character with nothing but love in her heart.

View attachment 3663509

Best Villain: Jecht. The constant threat of the whale, followed by Jecht being a hostage of circumstance.

View attachment 3663497

Best Non-Human Character: Kimahri. Ummovable bannerman against bullism and a strong example of what it means to stand your ground and not GAF.

Best Town: Zanarkand. The Dream version of the city is great and I like the tall skyscrapers and the pillar of water which cuts through the city. The ruined Zanarkand is so melancholy and getss two of the best tracks in the game ("To Zanarkand" and "Someday the Dream Will End").

Best Minigame: Blitzball. Got hooked on the "Five-a-side" type gameplay.

View attachment 3663518

Best Summon: Shiva. Descends from the heavens, "Here hold my shawl bitch" and damn near one-shots Anima.

Best Airship: Fahrenheit. Shit is big enough to run around in, has a shop and might as well have a fuckin' food court. Blackjack is a good contender, but functionality is lesser to the Fahrenheit.

X without voice acting would have been kino