World of Warcraft

I think part of the issue with people being sick of the woke questing/dialogue system already is that the devs think they're actually writing an RPG. Nobody in WoW is talking to questgivers in order to know more about them. They want their quests. If you want to give people information about the NPCs, seamlessly bake it into the quest text, don't just give people a wall of text, followed by dialogue options.
I disagree here with a caveat. I think people do wonder about details on a character like Fiona. Thinking back, at one point one of the Paladin Pals bring back some flowers for Fiona, but it's very unclear how she receives them. Is it flirtatious? Is it just friendly? Is it to playfully spite the other guy? All three characters are different races and inter-racial remantic relationships are largely taboo by omission in WoW.

My point is that the character interaction is better served by dropping it there, and not having a branching dialogue tree exploring their feelings from every angle. The player's imagination fills in the gaps better than Danuser's horny scribbles every could. Much like the addon scene and encounter design, it's something best ignored rather than catered to, even though the interest in there. Blizzard filling in the blanks ruins it.

Well since at the end of Cata they made the dragons all infertile they've decided that being gay is the way to go.

Much like draenei and demon lore, edited for convenience. Honestly the fertility never should have been altered from a writing standpoint, the Dragon Soul blowing up should've just been a "you lose immortality now" like the first World Tree wiping out Night Elf immortality.
 
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He raises the point that folks bitching about a trans character in and of itself is stupid, but then challenges people to question what exactly is it accomplishing, using a quote from the writer who said that they "consciously choose to add as much diversity as possible" in the content they write, saying that it's more self-congratulatory to pat yourself the back for what was effectively a blink-and-you'll-miss-it throwaway line.
I'll go a step further

There is no trans representation in WoW. A magical dragon or magical arbiter changing gender with 0 consequences isn't real. For people in reality - it's a major fucking decision that has massive consequences even for the "right people".

There's a huge money cost, a gigantic time cost, a huge health cost, a gigantic social cost - both small and large scale. The people who tell you it's a good idea might not have your actual best interest at heart and if you change your mind your entire (new) social support system entirely evaporates. The choice is irreversible and often doesn't "fix" whatever problem you were trying to fix.

None of this is represented in WoW and WoW quite simply isn't the game to address it in. It isn't just bad writing, it's just borderline inappropriate with how the game handles NPCs (as in they are mostly very minor) and the setting it's in (constant, never ending world-scale devestation with no rest periods).

It isn't just transgenderism - WoW as a game is frankly too immature to handle anything other than "Good Guy Good, Bad Guy Bad" or "My <FACTION> good, other <FACTION> bad" and at it's absolute peak of story telling can handle "Maybe Good Guy Corrupted and Become Bad" or "Maybe Bad Guy not So Bad".

WoW is written like a childen's cartoon or an anime. What happened last week is gone and it's only this week that matters. Not only should they not even think about approaching issues like transgenderism - they shouldn't touch homosexuality, genocide, war crimes, the morality of being a soldier, the morality of trophy hunting, man's place in the food chain, time travel, transhumanism, or racism. Not because those topics are "too taboo" - just because they don't have the writing talent or story driven game to actually explore that in.
 
I do agree with Tamer, the writers are trying to make WOW this progressive awe-inspiring game that battles issues when being so ignorant of the tone of their entire game. Wow is so a weird steampunk fantasy game with talking scaley porn dragons. It used to quip at real-world references etc. It's kind schizo like that but nothing I ever took seriously for the story. Now lore is different, lore is rules it sets itself which it always contradicts.


This shit popped up on my feed, what the fuck the art is horrible. People were not lying about the voice acting. This does not feel or even look like a finished product.
 
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I disagree here with a caveat. I think people do wonder about details on a character like Fiona. Thinking back, at one point one of the Paladin Pals bring back some flowers for Fiona, but it's very unclear how she receives them. Is it flirtatious? Is it just friendly? Is it to playfully spite the other guy? All three characters are different races and inter-racial remantic relationships are largely taboo by omission in WoW.

My point is that the character interaction is better served by dropping it there, and not having a branching dialogue tree exploring their feelings from every angle. The player's imagination fills in the gaps better than Danuser's horny scribbles every could. Much like the addon scene and encounter design, it's something best ignored rather than catered to, even though the interest in there. Blizzard filling in the blanks ruins it.
I think we're agreeing from different angles. My point is that NPC characterization is better done through questlines, emotes and open conversations between NPCs, not just blocks and blocks of text and dialogue trees. Fiona's caravan is an amazing example of that: you learn about the characters as you follow them through the Plaguelands, but that I remember you never had to stop and ask them any questions outside of "so, what else needs doing?". You were offered information about the characters from their quests and the little bits of dialogue and/or actions they did while in camp.

What grates people about this idea that your character is actively asking the NPCs to talk about themselves is that it's trying to force the players to care because their characters supposedly do. It's insulting the players' intelligence just so the writers feel "validated", while the players themselves want to play the fucking game. If I wanted to read I wouldn't be playing a quest-centric theme park MMO, I'd be replaying fucking Mass Effect or KOTOR.
 
For some reason Blizzard thinks we're all really interested in the NPCs themselves, as opposed to their quests.
One would almost think that they hired a bunch of dangerhairs and other untalented degenerates who are only interested in, and only capable of, writing for themselves. Which means lots of forced diversity, a majority of the characters being waifus, husbandos and/or self-inserts, and characters designed for their authors to squee over their relationship because their inner lives are so empty they exist through relating to fictional characters.

The relative mainstreaming of fan fiction has been a disaster for all forms of writing, both the content being produced and the people who get writing gigs.
 
I'll go a step further

There is no trans representation in WoW. A magical dragon or magical arbiter changing gender with 0 consequences isn't real. For people in reality - it's a major fucking decision that has massive consequences even for the "right people".

To clarify, the quote above was talking about Baldur's Gate and the bizarre "trans" character that was shoehorned in there. But the sentiment expressed in the video applies perfectly for the exact reasons you're outlining.

If, if World of Warcraft wanted to take their story more seriously, there's nothing wrong with that. It could be one strategy amongst many at shifting gears and maintaining player retention. It'd be risky, sure and almost assuredly lost on its intended audience (I'm sure you've seen the many instances of retards completely missing the boat over plot points in the XIV thread.)

But just churning out the same shitty writing with the same nuance as you stated (written like a children's cartoon or anime) isn't giving "representation." It's a reductive, simplistic approach that does a disservice to complex societal issues.

The most lauded story beat in the game's history was pretty much a Saturday morning cartoon villain ranting and raving (Wrathgate) and when that's your high mark? Hoo boy.

There's nothing wrong with homosexual characters just being there. But the preaching & pulpits that drag you out of the game and remind you that the NPC you're interacting with isn't in Azeroth, but in Earth? Doesn't work.

Like you said, they need to hire way better writers.
 
I think we're agreeing from different angles. My point is that NPC characterization is better done through questlines, emotes and open conversations between NPCs, not just blocks and blocks of text and dialogue trees. Fiona's caravan is an amazing example of that: you learn about the characters as you follow them through the Plaguelands, but that I remember you never had to stop and ask them any questions outside of "so, what else needs doing?". You were offered information about the characters from their quests and the little bits of dialogue and/or actions they did while in camp.

What grates people about this idea that your character is actively asking the NPCs to talk about themselves is that it's trying to force the players to care because their characters supposedly do. It's insulting the players' intelligence just so the writers feel "validated", while the players themselves want to play the fucking game. If I wanted to read I wouldn't be playing a quest-centric theme park MMO, I'd be replaying fucking Mass Effect or KOTOR.
Come to think of it, how long have dialogue trees even been in WoW? The only instance I remember in my whole run with the game was one quest in Cataclysm where you had to "persuade" a NPC in I think Hyjal to do something by picking one of three dialogue choices - it was insultingly obvious which the right one was, and the whole format felt very jarring and out of place. Afterwards, I never saw anything like that again until I quit towards the end of WoD. And with good reason; besides how weird it felt, WoW and its quest interface are simply not built for that kind of interaction. A static text box is a good medium for telling the player to do X thing, not for dialogue, and the game's linearity precludes the multiple choice aspect from being really meaningful. All this is good for, besides disguised fetch quests like the one in Cata, is asking characters for information, and I don't remember that ever being very high on the list of anyone's priorities for WoW.
 
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I do agree with Tamer, the writers are trying to make WOW this progressive awe-inspiring game that battles issues when being so ignorant of the tone of their entire game. Wow is so a weird steampunk fantasy game with talking scaley porn dragons. It used to quip at real-world references etc. It's kind schizo like that but nothing I ever took seriously for the story. Now lore is different, lore is rules it sets itself which it always contradicts.


This shit popped up on my feed, what the fuck the art is horrible. People were not lying about the voice acting. This does not feel or even look like a finished product.
why the fuck did the chromie port onto the chest for no reason?

What grates people about this idea that your character is actively asking the NPCs to talk about themselves is that it's trying to force the players to care because their characters supposedly do. It's insulting the players' intelligence just so the writers feel "validated", while the players themselves want to play the fucking game. If I wanted to read I wouldn't be playing a quest-centric theme park MMO, I'd be replaying fucking Mass Effect or KOTOR.
that really depends how it's pulled off. asking some bloke that wants you to collect boar testicles "why?" isn't that far fetched, but then it also shouldn't be shoved down your thrown (but then you might not wanna read it in the first place, and the little writer's ego can't have that). it's also much cheaper and faster to cram whatever you want in a quest dialog than rig up a NPC script and hire someone to do voicelines etc.

you can have those kind of dialogs, but again that's a WoW problem. quests aren't a singular event (think runescape), but hundreds of mundane chores, where after a certain point you just zone out and click through it - although I think they changed it at some point by having less of it at the same time but longer questlines in the form of follow-up quests. that doesn't really fix it tho since most people grab all the quests in a hub, work them off one by one and then get the next batch. it's like reading 2-3 books at the same time.

to go back to ESO (I know I know), it's as themepark as it gets too, but since the amount of quests is much smaller, and there's a clear separation between "main/zone quest" (which gets all the effort in voicelines and scripts) and sidequests, it's much easier to remember what happened at that location and who was involved.
said sidequests are almost always around a single 3-4 quests chain per hub, which all tell their "own" story. the dialog itself is always the same size and format, 1-2 pages of text after which you get the quests, with 2-3 extra options to ask about. this way people can grab the quest quickly and follow the compass, storyfags can read up on everything they want.
on top of those quests there are dozens of books scattered around like you'd expect from an elder scrolls game, either part of the quest going into more detail/explain what happens (journals and stuff) and general lore books.
there's also the little know fact that every sidequest you complete you usually have those same NPCs show up at the big celebration after you complete the final quest of the main story (think that eastern plaguelands story), which again gives you a nice info what the NPCs were up to in the meantime and plan to do. and that's not even considering you'll run into some of those very same NPCs a few times more in later content, which again adds some nice little arc to otherwise faceless, dime-a-dozen distributors of chores.
there isn't really preventing WoW from doing the same if they want.

TLDR: less is more, and more is optional.

To clarify, the quote above was talking about Baldur's Gate and the bizarre "trans" character that was shoehorned in there. But the sentiment expressed in the video applies perfectly for the exact reasons you're outlining.

If, if World of Warcraft wanted to take their story more seriously, there's nothing wrong with that. It could be one strategy amongst many at shifting gears and maintaining player retention. It'd be risky, sure and almost assuredly lost on its intended audience (I'm sure you've seen the many instances of retards completely missing the boat over plot points in the XIV thread.)
old WoW lore was pretty serious in itself, it was just presented in a lighthearted way. like you can show death in a kids cartoon and deal with it, or go full edgelord and have a live 20 minute vivisection to show how "mature" your story is.
there has been more than enough said about modern writing, but in essence current year writers don't take anything serious nor handle it with respect, that's why even when they want to do sErIoUs ToPiCs it comes across as stunted and immature because that's how they treat everything else. old WoW worked because the levity was few and far between and otherwise treated it's characters "authentic" (in lack of a better word), even if it was just a simple quest dialog. lot of people also confuse "for kids" with "excuse to be shit", when kids itself can smell bullshit far easier than people think. ask yourself, why are transformers and the main chunk of old-school saturday morning cartoons so beloved (even "cringe" stuff like he-man and his advisory at the end?).

Come to think of it, how long have dialogue trees even been in WoW? The only instance I remember in my whole run with the game was one quest in Cataclysm where you had to "persuade" a NPC in I think Hyjal to do something by picking one of three dialogue choices - it was insultingly obvious which the right one was, and the whole format felt very jarring and out of place. Afterwards, I never saw anything like that again until I quit towards the end of WoD. And with good reason; besides how weird it felt, WoW and its quest interface are simply not built for that kind of interaction. A static text box is a good medium for telling the player to do X thing, not for dialogue, and the game's linearity precludes the multiple choice aspect from being really meaningful. All this is good for, besides disguised fetch quests like the one in Cata, is asking characters for information, and I don't remember that ever being very high on the list of anyone's priorities for WoW.
because other games do it and the writer really want's you to care about the npc (and their struggle/self-insert/message) - for better or worse, there's nothing wrong in itself and probably helps write better NPCs, on the other hand it's easy to end up with something like this:

as @Well Intentioned said it really comes down to better writers. for example, why is mankrik's wife still remembered? there's nothing special about the quest itself, 2 dialogs (one being a single line) and a single interactable.
 
old WoW lore was pretty serious in itself, it was just presented in a lighthearted way. like you can show death in a kids cartoon and deal with it, or go full edgelord and have a live 20 minute vivisection to show how "mature" your story is.

Old WoW lore was all over the place. The preceding stuff (WC2&3) is rife with retcons (biggest/most obvious being Azeroth's geographical location WRT Loedaeron) but there were stories that were serious and done fairly well given the medium we're talking about (Fordring quests in EPL, Darrowshire, Mor'ladim, the Fallen Hero of the Horde questline in Blasted Lands, etc.) that mixed with less serious storylines/quests.

In a game like an MMO, I think it's important to have that shit co-exist. All serious, all the time just leads to tedious edgelord shit like Hatred (regardless of it was serious or parody it's the same one note played over and over), but all wacky all zany all the time just leads to tedious neckbeard shit like Lowtax's or Doug Walker's brand of comedy.

The important thing is tone and balancing it out. Otherwise you end up with Tim Buckley's masterpiece, Loss.jpg.

there has been more than enough said about modern writing, but in essence current year writers don't take anything serious nor handle it with respect, that's why even when they want to do sErIoUs ToPiCs it comes across as stunted and immature because that's how they treat everything else.

There's definitely the done-to-death Whedonesque writing that is just quippy, sardonic nonsense that jumbles together into an incoherent mess and it is absolutely a problem.

But the other issue extends beyond that. You have writers who have a surface level understanding of an issue (going back to that Baldur's Gate trans character, they were written by a biological woman who was/is not transgender), are seeking validation/approval for being so inclusive, are terrified to use metaphors or other storytelling tools because the audience is way too stupid to understand anything and they need to hold their hands.

And they're also just shitty writers for the most part.

old WoW worked because the levity was few and far between and otherwise treated it's characters "authentic" (in lack of a better word), even if it was just a simple quest dialog. lot of people also confuse "for kids" with "excuse to be shit", when kids itself can smell bullshit far easier than people think. ask yourself, why are transformers and the main chunk of old-school saturday morning cartoons so beloved (even "cringe" stuff like he-man and his advisory at the end?).

Old WoW relied on archetypes and stock characters. Unfortunately the TV-Tropes irradiated brains of these retards have come to think that any instances of archetypes (or "tropes") = bad and dismiss that sort of stuff outright and hold Dan Harmon's incest-promoting 'story circle' as the pinnacle of craft storytelling.

It's the CalArts problem but with narrative.

Also the reason why shit like Transformers or GI Joe have endured?

Marketing and endless licensing and reproduction of marketable materials.
 
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Why are they all playing Dragonslop? We've lost, kiwisisters, dysphoria's setting in...
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I do agree with Tamer, the writers are trying to make WOW this progressive awe-inspiring game that battles issues when being so ignorant of the tone of their entire game. Wow is so a weird steampunk fantasy game with talking scaley porn dragons. It used to quip at real-world references etc. It's kind schizo like that but nothing I ever took seriously for the story. Now lore is different, lore is rules it sets itself which it always contradicts.


This shit popped up on my feed, what the fuck the art is horrible. People were not lying about the voice acting. This does not feel or even look like a finished product.
This would be bad as both a cheesy Saturday morning cartoon as well as a mobile game. Everything from the dialogue to the animations sucks, and it's even worse with the cleaner cartoony graphics. What made WoW good back in the day is they worked in their limitations and kept things to a certain level of grainy if they couldn't accomplish the visuals they want, but here it's just models floating in space as they run around in some cases.
 
Why are they all playing Dragonslop? We've lost, kiwisisters, dysphoria's setting in...
View attachment 3984753
Scads of people had terrible taste and will happily gobble up a new expansion for a month or two. Also I believe HS timed their new card set release similarly to try to keep up momentum.

"It causes me to feel.. what is the word for it, 'Cringe'? Or perhaps 'Disgust' ... or 'completely fag-o-trocious'."
 
I'll go a step further

There is no trans representation in WoW. A magical dragon or magical arbiter changing gender with 0 consequences isn't real. For people in reality - it's a major fucking decision that has massive consequences even for the "right people".

There's a huge money cost, a gigantic time cost, a huge health cost, a gigantic social cost - both small and large scale. The people who tell you it's a good idea might not have your actual best interest at heart and if you change your mind your entire (new) social support system entirely evaporates. The choice is irreversible and often doesn't "fix" whatever problem you were trying to fix.

None of this is represented in WoW and WoW quite simply isn't the game to address it in. It isn't just bad writing, it's just borderline inappropriate with how the game handles NPCs (as in they are mostly very minor) and the setting it's in (constant, never ending world-scale devestation with no rest periods).

It isn't just transgenderism - WoW as a game is frankly too immature to handle anything other than "Good Guy Good, Bad Guy Bad" or "My <FACTION> good, other <FACTION> bad" and at it's absolute peak of story telling can handle "Maybe Good Guy Corrupted and Become Bad" or "Maybe Bad Guy not So Bad".

WoW is written like a childen's cartoon or an anime. What happened last week is gone and it's only this week that matters. Not only should they not even think about approaching issues like transgenderism - they shouldn't touch homosexuality, genocide, war crimes, the morality of being a soldier, the morality of trophy hunting, man's place in the food chain, time travel, transhumanism, or racism. Not because those topics are "too taboo" - just because they don't have the writing talent or story driven game to actually explore that in.
Honestly all this talk about shoehorned "diversity" and tranny shit, reminds me of this recent trend of creators making existing characters trans and lying through their teeth with statements "oh they were always trans/that was always only the plan", only
for someone to find interviews, videos and other media where creators are saying the thing that contradicts with the current narrative they're trying to push.

The reason why I mention this is because Chromie is no exception to this trend.
Old WoW magazines that came out 10-15 years ago, had the topic about her, and the official statement was
that she was always a female dragon from the start, but she just had a masculine sounding name due to the naming conventions for Bronze Dragonflight.

So yeah, Nu-Blizzard can cope and say that was the plan all along (The same way how Bald BDSM Nipple dude was a plan since WC3, btw!), but anyone reasonable can smell it's bullshit.


Remember when leakers described Dragonflight/10.0 as "Danuser's baby"? That should've been the warning from the start.

What made WoW good back in the day is they worked in their limitations and kept things to a certain level of grainy if they couldn't accomplish the visuals they want, but here it's just models floating in space as they run around in some cases.
Remember, when according to devs it took them one week to finish Molten Core? Yeah, things were done with existing resources and models, but that is genuinely commendable.
The fact that developers managed to accomplish many things with limitations is amazing despite, their company and numbers not being huge as today.
For an example, lots of voiceovers would be considered low quality and cheesy but, you could see there was lots of love poured into it.

The reason why nu-WoW today feels genuinely cheap and suffers from stagnation, despite having now the budget, tools and less limitations than 10-15 years ago,
is because just like most video game companies today, not only they hire people that hate video games, they hire people that absolutely wouldn't buy their game,
even if it had all the diversity and pandering they like.
 
Remember, when according to devs it took them one week to finish Molten Core? Yeah, things were done with existing resources and models, but that is genuinely commendable.
The fact that developers managed to accomplish many things with limitations is amazing despite, their company and numbers not being huge as today.
For an example, lots of voiceovers would be considered low quality and cheesy but, you could see there was lots of love poured into it.

The reason why nu-WoW today feels genuinely cheap and suffers from stagnation, despite having now the budget, tools and less limitations than 10-15 years ago,
is because just like most video game companies today, not only they hire people that hate video games, they hire people that absolutely wouldn't buy their game,
even if it had all the diversity and pandering they like.
It's always interesting to see interviews from people who worked at these companies back then, and how they had to do things just to get by. One of the WC3 designers who made a lot of the levels (Designer Dave) went into a lot of detail about some of the design and how the map editor players got was more complete than the one they had and used. It's also interesting how some water doodads were just fountains made huge and placed under the map to get an effect the art team couldn't do.

Pippa also interviewed an former artist who now makes porn games, but he would also just slap a ton of the art together, supposedly his signature is symbol on Felcloth from vanilla WoW. Dude sounded like a massive degenerate but also laid back enough to not really give a shit about his own stuff when it came to work and just got the job done.

It really is just that they fired all the weird fucks who liked to make things and brought in a bunch of retards who do nothing but whine and rip off random pop culture shit. Maybe one day all these triple A companies will die off and we'll see more smaller studios doing cool projects again, because after all most of the good stuff comes from lesser known companies while Amazon's game studios try to make an MMO and create the biggest piece of crap in the world, only outdone by Zuckers Meta Wii Shop.

Edit: I also think MMO's are either too small in scope (WoW) or too big in scope (all of the kickstarter Star-Dream-Whatever projects). Eventually someone will figure out an MMO that gets players invested in more ways than just raiding.
 
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