Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[BlazikenLover]

Very doubtful. D&Done isn't shaping up to be a radical change to the ruleset like 4e was vs 3.5e. PF was a perfect storm, lightning in a bottle I don't think its likely they'll get to recapture.

If we forget that Paizo also blew their load on (cucked, gay) PF2e which came out 7 years too late to woo the 4e crowd.
If it took them 7 years to pivot to a 4e clone, I find it doubtful they'll be able to move with any sufficient speed to capture the 5e audience.

But 4e was a huge shift, and made 10x worse all the problems the 2e grognards had been bitching about with 3.5. PF came out as a "hardcore" (read: complex with tons of ways to break it) 3.5 with lots of needed fixes baked-in and seemed like a solid middle ground. Paizo had also made a name for themselves being a 3.5 module house.
There is no sizeable percentage of 4e grognards to recruit from for PF3e. They just recently pivoted to focus on 5e modules. PF3e isn't going to be the phenom that PF1e was. They only way it gets traction is if WotC goes against what they said and D&Done is a huge departure from 5e, enough a 5.75e can recruit an audience from the zoomer grogs who don't want to learn a new game.
But the real issue is...
As broken, as glaringly flawed, 3.5e is the system has character. Characters are durable but not unbreakable, and it has plug ins for almost anything you want. There is a reason PF was able to get and keep a following.
5e OTOH is a lot more balanced, but completely soulless. No one has fun with a game BECAUSE its 5e, it is more that games are fun despite it being 5e.


The interesting bit might be that Paizo has (or at least had) their own content distribution marketplace. They might be become an OGL 1.0 safe haven; everything I've seen has said DTRPG/GMs Guild will be bending the knee on OGL 1.1 as soon as asked, but that might not reflect reality.

I didn't express myself properly, I didn't mean paizo would release a PF3e but that someone could release a 5e clone or compatible game to woo 5e players if D&Done ends up being ass (and you add the whole license nonsense to that).
Now It seems my assumption about D&Done being a big departure from 5e is wrong. I admit i haven't read the playtests/drafts because I have sincerily lost interest in most new D&D 5e content due to the direction they started going since tasha's.

 

[Wormy]

I for one welcome this shakeup. Let the uroboros feast.

Now, once Games Workshop shits the bed this hard and finally alienates their paypig fanbase, maybe miniatures gaming can get it's proper shakeup....

 

[anti SJW]

I heard the mods on thd official DnD discord are deleting any talk about the OSR there.
So standard operating procedure for them.

 

[Ghostse]

Now It seems my assumption about D&Done being a big departure from 5e is wrong. I admit i haven't read the playtests/drafts because I have sincerily lost interest in most new D&D 5e content due to the direction they started going since tasha's.

Yeah no big shake up coming.
All the documents out of D&Done have shown that its iterative. Its pretty much just 5e but with a new focus on online content (read: monthly paypigs) and with tumblr-trigger terms like race being slowly replaced, and a shift to even more Grey Blobs of Stats than 5e was. The main new evolution is that Wizards will sell physical books but will be constantly iterating the online documents (to ensure trannies & niggers are properly fellated). They are trying to get everyone online, paying a monthly fee, and able to memory hole anything at will. But it'll be a slow boiling, and that seems to be the point.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

New Dungeons & Dragons Licensing Agreement Heavily Restricts Original Content​

New Dungeons & Dragons Licensing Agreement Heavily Restricts Original Content

The new Open Gaming License by Wizards of the Coast for its TTRPG Dungeons & Dragons imposes heavy restrictions on original content by players.

www.cbr.com

New DnD Licensing Agreement Heavily Restricts Original Content

archived 6 Jan 2023 02:54:41 UTC

archive.ph

I wonder if it will create the same backlash when GW tried to do a tenth of that, though I doubt it. WoTC is to pozzed to criticize, and the target audience is too much of a consoomer to care.

Though I have no idea how they can punish creators for wrong view, and what happens if someone already have work using the IP.

 

[Ghostse]

Though I have no idea how they can punish creators for wrong view, and what happens if someone already have work using the IP.

They can punish wrongthink by revoking the thought criminal's OGL 1.1 license, and getting online storefronts to de-list your works.

If you already have something released under the OGL, the OGL is non-revocable; they can't touch you, only Cope/Seethe/Dilate and try to trick you into doing something retarded like registering with the OGL 1.1.

The more I look and the more I think, this is very clearly an attempt by Wizards to get their cut from big kickstarters. 4e tried to do something similar to this - there was no playable SRD for 4e, just basically a design document; so to get access to the 4e content you needed to work out a separate license with Wizards. They did it at the time for brand protection - with the Satanic Panic over, they were trying to reshape the game to be "family friendly" and didn't want some Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge to come along and ruin that.
They were also trying to monetize digital, 4e had official PDFs for the first wave of books, but WotC lost their shit about piracy around PHB3.
There was nearly no 3rd party content for 4e because of this, and for D&Done they are doing the exact same thing.

They have a goose that lays golden eggs. The owner then looks at the goose, picks up their knife and says "I bet if I make the cloaca 3 times bigger, it'll lay 3 times as many golden eggs"

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

They can punish wrongthink by revoking the thought criminal's OGL 1.1 license, and getting online storefronts to de-list your works.

If you already have something released under the OGL, the OGL is non-revocable; they can't touch you, only Cope/Seethe/Dilate and try to trick you into doing something retarded like registering with the OGL 1.1.

The more I look and the more I think, this is very clearly an attempt by Wizards to get their cut from big kickstarters. 4e tried to do something similar to this - there was no playable SRD for 4e, just basically a design document; so to get access to the 4e content you needed to work out a separate license with Wizards. They did it at the time for brand protection - with the Satanic Panic over, they were trying to reshape the game to be "family friendly" and didn't want some Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge to come along and ruin that.
They were also trying to monetize digital, 4e had official PDFs for the first wave of books, but WotC lost their shit about piracy around PHB3.
There was nearly no 3rd party content for 4e because of this, and for D&Done they are doing the exact same thing.

They have a goose that lays golden eggs. The owner then looks at the goose, picks up their knife and says "I bet if I make the cloaca 3 times bigger, it'll lay 3 times as many golden eggs"

The thing is, they can't actually legally rescind the original OGL, so they can't really touch anything made under it, even anything new. Every piece of content they made under the original OGL is still under it. So there's not much they can do to stop people from continuing to make their own stuff based on that content, just like they couldn't stop Paizo from publishing Pathfinder while 4e was withering and dying. And if they try to intervene, with Paizo or anyone else, they open themselves up to legal scrutiny. So this accomplishes nothing but bad press on Wizard's part. And Wizard's may try to ask storefronts to delist things, but they aren't legally obligated to do so, because of the OGL.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

They can punish wrongthink by revoking the thought criminal's OGL 1.1 license, and getting online storefronts to de-list your works.

If you already have something released under the OGL, the OGL is non-revocable; they can't touch you, only Cope/Seethe/Dilate and try to trick you into doing something retarded like registering with the OGL 1.1.

The more I look and the more I think, this is very clearly an attempt by Wizards to get their cut from big kickstarters. 4e tried to do something similar to this - there was no playable SRD for 4e, just basically a design document; so to get access to the 4e content you needed to work out a separate license with Wizards. They did it at the time for brand protection - with the Satanic Panic over, they were trying to reshape the game to be "family friendly" and didn't want some Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge to come along and ruin that.
They were also trying to monetize digital, 4e had official PDFs for the first wave of books, but WotC lost their shit about piracy around PHB3.
There was nearly no 3rd party content for 4e because of this, and for D&Done they are doing the exact same thing.

They have a goose that lays golden eggs. The owner then looks at the goose, picks up their knife and says "I bet if I make the cloaca 3 times bigger, it'll lay 3 times as many golden eggs"

So it will only apply to Done And Done, which won't have any interesting lore and world building anyways, since that will be hurtful? Incredible strategy.

 

[Ghostse]

The thing is, they can't actually legally rescind the original OGL, so they can't really touch anything made under it, even anything new. Every piece of content they made under the original OGL is still under it. So there's not much they can do to stop people from continuing to make their own stuff based on that content, just like they couldn't stop Paizo from publishing Pathfinder while 4e was withering and dying. And if they try to intervene, with Paizo or anyone else, they open themselves up to legal scrutiny. So this accomplishes nothing but bad press on Wizard's part. And Wizard's may try to ask storefronts to delist things, but they aren't legally obligated to do so, because of the OGL.

From an online grog I saw who claims to know people in DTRPG management, (but might be lying it goes like this):
DTRPG/GMs Guild is WOTC's bitch.
WOTC will put out the OGL 1.1. OGL 1.1 has to be signed and while no one HAS to sign, but is the only license allowed for D&Done content. So when you are publisher and sign up for OGL 1.1 so you can keep releasing content for the new edition, they will try to force you to OGL 1.1 any existing OGL content you have. Again, you don't HAVE to do this, but people are idiots.
The 2nd wing of the pincer comes in, which is WOTC forces DTRPG to delist anything that mentions D&D and the publisher doesn't have an OGL 1.1 signed and on file. Again, DTRPG could just tell WotC to fuck off because nothing is illegal or in violation, but they won't because they are supposedly 100% cucked to Wizards. Rinse and repeat for any other PDF publisher they can find, or any online bookseller they can bully (i.e. not amazon). They are unlikely to care for brick-and-mortar sales because they are comparatively small (in profit generation terms) and too hard to pin down.
Again, these companies COULD tell Wizards to go eat a dick, but Wizards will communicate this via scarygram from their lawyer, and most places will roll over to a legal threat no matter how toothless.

So it will only apply to Done And Done, which won't have any interesting lore and world building anyways, since that will be hurtful? Incredible strategy.

While it will be the only license for D&Done, the idea is to attempt to threaten anyone who published content under the OGL to move the license to OGL 1.1 when the register for the OGL 1.1.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

From an online grog I saw who claims to know people in DTRPG management, (but might be lying it goes like this):
DTRPG/GMs Guild is WOTC's bitch.
WOTC will put out the OGL 1.1. OGL 1.1 has to be signed and while no one HAS to sign, but is the only license allowed for D&Done content. So when you are publisher and sign up for OGL 1.1 so you can keep releasing content for the new edition, they will try to force you to OGL 1.1 any existing OGL content you have. Again, you don't HAVE to do this, but people are idiots.
The 2nd wing of the pincer comes in, which is WOTC forces DTRPG to delist anything that mentions D&D and the publisher doesn't have an OGL 1.1 signed and on file. Again, DTRPG could just tell WotC to fuck off because nothing is illegal or in violation, but they won't because they are supposedly 100% cucked to Wizards. Rinse and repeat for any other PDF publisher they can find, or any online bookseller they can bully (i.e. not amazon). They are unlikely to care for brick-and-mortar sales because they are comparatively small (in profit generation terms) and too hard to pin down.
Again, these companies COULD tell Wizards to go eat a dick, but Wizards will communicate this via scarygram from their lawyer, and most places will roll over to a legal threat no matter how toothless.


While it will be the only license for D&Done, the idea is to attempt to threaten anyone who published content under the OGL to move the license to OGL 1.1 when the register for the OGL 1.1.

Lazy threats are one thing. Actually putting it into practice is another. Someone is going to call the bluff eventually if they push hard enough. That's when things get interesting. My guess is, this will just end up biting everyone in the ass because it will just be 4e all over again; D&D based content will dry up, which means content in general will dry up. The hobby in general will enter another Dark Age and the "casual audience", i.e. the normies, will fuck off and find something else to occupy their time (which they are already starting to do). And Wizards will come out of this even more fucked than they were before.

 

[Ghostse]

As I understood it, DTRPG understands WotC doesn't have a leg to stand on but is very much against biting the hand that feeds it, and very against being the one to fuck around and find out.

Smaller shops are likely to just see a legal notice from a big company and simply comply.

I suspect (and hope) they are going to fail, and you've outline the course events are probably going to take for the next few years.

the normies, will fuck off and find something else to occupy their time (which they are already starting to do).

Agreed, and that is another reason there won't be another "Pathfinder" situation. Most of the normies 5e brought in don't want to play TTRPGs, they only show up to D&D sessions because its trendy to say you play D&D.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

Surprisingly heard about this before Kiwifarms due to one of my online GMs hating it. Frankly I hope it goes legal and Wizards lose hard.

 

[I-chi]

Lmao how in the fuck can they even claim Pathfinder even remotely resembles their game anymore; or Starfinder, or anything else by Paizo. I mean I get people who develop supplements and modules and shit for 5E maybe, but I don't see how there's even a legal leg to stand on to warrant this attempt. I could be just retarded but aren't those systems legally distinct enough to not even apply?

What court is gonna hold this shit up?

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Lmao how in the fuck can they even claim Pathfinder even remotely resembles their game anymore; or Starfinder, or anything else by Paizo. I mean I get people who develop supplements and modules and shit for 5E maybe, but I don't see how there's even a legal leg to stand on to warrant this attempt. I could be just retarded but aren't those systems legally distinct enough to not even apply?

What court is gonna hold this shit up?

Even if Pathfinder was a direct copy of the rules (and PF 1e kind of is, to the point that you can just port over things like classes with no real change), there is literally nothing Wizards could do about it and they'd be laughed out of court if they tried. The Supreme Court has already ruled that you can't copyright game rules, period. And everything else carried over to PF is covered by the OGL, which is designed like an GNU license.

I'll just cross-post this link to a Twitter thread explaining all this minutiae that I posted in the Tabletop Community Watch Thread:

Here's a great Twitter thread that actually goes into the legal minutiae of what Wizards actually did, and why it probably won't matter in the long run, or effect existing products like Pathfinder.

Click this link to read the Twitter thread explaining all this legal shit and how much Wizards are actually boned.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

Nobody likes this thing. I see people from across the goddamned spectrum (figuratively and literally) saying 'This is shit'. I see people that talk about fucking Thirsty Sword Lesbians in glowing terms say 'Fuck WotC, not giving them one more dime'. I've had two people ask me privately (not here) about piracy options against WotC.

And that's just bog standard gamers.

I know not a lot of people here like Critical Role, but the fanbase is fucking rabid. Imagine the shitstorm if WotC goes head to head with CR.

 

[Wormy]

Sooo, we stockpile the old school material as much as we can while we still can, hunker down and wait the storm out?

 

[Ghostse]

The Supreme Court has already ruled that you can't copyright game rules, period.

Sort of.
The supreme court has ruled you cannot copyright the general rules of Monopoly, but you can copyright your printing of the rules (IE xeroxing the rules and handing them out is still illegal. Typing them out yourself and making small formatting changes/replacing graphics makes it totally kosher) and you can copyright elements, like the game board.
So you can't just release monoly where Broadway costs $500 and you get $200 for passing go, but you could make Polymono where Broadway costs $1000 and you get $400 for passing go (though if you do something that blatant, the judge may just rule against you on principal).

How this works in D&D is if you look at the 3.5 SRD, there are copyrighted creatures that are not in the beastiary (owlbear, beholder). They also talk about leveling up, EXP ,etc, but no where is the 'official' numbers listed for level-ups. That is ruled as unique product (that is they hired a guy to do math with secret formulas, and the results of that math are unique work product) and that IS copyrightable.
This is also where they moved to "Power Cards" in 4e. Wizards said the 4e power cards, because they had design elements and formatting, and damage/effects were the result of secret math, they were copyrightable work product, and hence why the 4e SRD is a useless design document with no numbers anywhere.
IIRC This is effectively the same argument they made for MTG, and I believe that DID survive an initial legal challenge.

In general, the statute hasn't been tested... I think ever since the first ruling back in the 80s iirc. Any other time its come up that I'm aware of, either a judge dismissed the case or one side or the other blinked, or they reached some settlement/signed and agreement and dismissed the case.

Imagine the shitstorm if WotC goes head to head with CR.

Sadly we won't see that. CR already made a deal with Wizards to officially license the product, I haven't seen anyone who has discussed exactly what that is. But Wizards has put out official D&D branded CR material, CR has used D&D IP in their promos. They already have their separate license.
But a nerd can dream.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Sadly we won't see that. CR already made a deal with Wizards to officially license the product, I haven't seen anyone who has discussed exactly what that is. But Wizards has put out official D&D branded CR material, CR has used D&D IP in their promos. They already have their separate license.
But a nerd can dream.

Any deal they had would have been under the old OGL. Same with Paizo or any other company that makes officially licensed products. There won't be any issues immediately. But when the current deals expire, and a new deal needs to be negotiated, I can imagine we will see gritting and gnashing of teeth the likes of which hasn't been seen before. At that point, it will be interesting to see where things go.

 

[The Ugly One]

DTRPG is WotC's bitch for the simple reason that it's the engine behind DMs Guild, where WotC sells PDFs of all its official content and where 3rd party content thrives. When WotC tells DTRPG to delist OGL 1.0 content, they'll obey. This won't hurt Paizo directly, who has their own storefront, but it will stop any of their currently friendly third parties from going the same route.

But the other thing they're doing is trying to kill off the OSR. It's cleverly worded. Most small RPG companies are woke and won't be affected much, if at all. But companies like Autarch will have to abide by the ban on "racism" and "transphobia," which will be enforced as objectively as Twitter "trust & safety" policy, and ultimately have their business destroyed no matter what they do. Either they alienate their current fans, or get booted from DTRPG. Either way, guys like Macris and RPG Pundit are going to be flushed out of the industry, or at least that's the goal.

Kickstarter is happy to pull projects that the Cool People complain about, so they'll comply as well. Too much money in D&D-related projects.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

DTRPG is WotC's bitch for the simple reason that it's the engine behind DMs Guild, where WotC sells PDFs of all its official content and where 3rd party content thrives. When WotC tells DTRPG to delist OGL 1.0 content, they'll obey. This won't hurt Paizo directly, who has their own storefront, but it will stop any of their currently friendly third parties from going the same route.

But the other thing they're doing is trying to kill off the OSR. It's cleverly worded. Most small RPG companies are woke and won't be affected much, if at all. But companies like Autarch will have to abide by the ban on "racism" and "transphobia," which will be enforced as objectively as Twitter "trust & safety" policy, and ultimately have their business destroyed no matter what they do. Either they alienate their current fans, or get booted from DTRPG. Either way, guys like Macris and RPG Pundit are going to be flushed out of the industry, or at least that's the goal.

Kickstarter is happy to pull projects that the Cool People complain about, so they'll comply as well. Too much money in D&D-related projects.

And as said before, this won't do anything but hurt the entire industry. A literal circular firing squad. This shit didn't work when 4e was a thing, it won't work now. Guys like Macris and RPG Pundit will find other ways to sell their works and profit, nor do I think Kickstarter will give that much of shit to take any action. The money in D&D is drying up, and shit ain't selling like it used to. This is a fools errand and any attempt to go after anyone directly will lead to court cases Wizards will lose because they have no legal leg to stand on.