Undertale

[Peru oso donas]

I finished undertale with first a neutral then a pacifist run and I thought it was pretty neat and a liked a bunch of its characters but its far from perfect, some characters are awful people with the game refusing to acknowledge it, the morality handwriging gets really obnoxious after a while (especially if you do 2 runs like me) and the fandom is cancer.

The fact that the game treats self defence as a "sin" I found to be especially offputting. You're treated s a villain for not actively trying to befriend lunatics that attack you on sight and in the case of undyne you're treated a villain for not going out of your way to save the life of someone who 3 seconds ago was trying to murder you and rip your soul out. The writing while certainly "emotional" completely lacks nuance in this regard.

This is also especially annoying when facing Asgore. Asgore is a serial killer of five seperate children that he actively sought out to murder, and you HAVE to forgive him for his crimes, but god forbid you kill even ONE monster (in self defence no less), because from that point on you're irdeemable and literally have to reset the entire timeline because your soul is tainted forever otherwise.

Character wise I really like Papyrus and Metatton because of how audacious, egotistic, determined and confident they are. Metatton radiates that Roger Smith/Bender/IASIP energy where the bigger asshole he is the more likable he becomes because of how confident/determined he in what he does and Papyrus reminds me of Kronk where he fails at being evil in a way that you can't help but like him. (Also being confident and audacious with a huge ego helps.)

However, characters like Aphys (and both because how the game treats her and how the fanbase treats her) straight up pisses me off. Aphys is literally the Josef Mengele of the undertale universe while also being the personification of a redditor, she horribly mutilated a bunch of people leaving them in perpetual agony, locked them in the basement, lied to their families, and spends all her time reading manga and talking about japanese visual novels on twitter using slang fit for a 14 year old girl, while also acting like a shy easily embarassed "uwu" wallflower.

To top it all off in the "good" ending where you convince her to tell the truth she goes "I can't keep doing this to myself, I have to tell the truth." She doesn't say "I can't keep doing this to THEM" she says "I can't keep doing this to ME", as if SHE is the truth victim of all this, not the people who she has kept locked up in the basement in perpetual agony for all these years, the only thing she cares about is what everyone will think of her.

In the good ending she gets to be with her lesbian lover and in the "bad" ending she hangs herself, which should really be inversed. Speaking of, if you want to get the good ending you have to play matchmaker for 2 seperate gay couples.

Also as a side note, the comedy in the game is really good. There are a lot of shit jokes, but also a lot of really good ones and its one of the few "comedy" games that have ever made me laugh out loud. I think that for every person that plays this game there is at least 1 joke that will make you laugh out loud.

All in all, the game isn't perfect, but nothing is, the morality can get obnoxious, but (some of) the characters are fun, the soundtrack is enjoyable, the comedy is scattershot hit or miss (with a decent ammount of hits imo) and while the fanbase is total cancer, I don't regret playing it.

I pretty much agree with you in that one of the game's biggest flaw in its narrative is that it completely disregards self defence to push the "spare everyone" message (and that Alphys is fucking awful, and it speaks miles that Toby made her into a chick because he knew no one would like her if she was a guy) which is why i dig that Deltarune doesn't completely demonize the player for fighting instead of acting (besides Ralsei pushing the latter, Berdly getting his arm fried and snowgrave, but i think those cases have been handled better, as Ralsei seems to be hiding something, Berdly getting handicapped pushes the message that fighting will make you stronger but may cost you allies for the future, and snowgrave is fucked even if you believe that the darkners are assholes for attacking you first) and letting you combine the 2 depending on the situation (as far we know, maybe Toby fucks it up in the future but i have a bit of faith in him)

I kinda wonder, as the game goes on, if Kris actively feels regret and remorse over going down the Weird Route (in chapter 2's case, "Snow Grave")

Because I remember a line when going down that route saying how "It's natural for Noelle to feel like she should kill Kris if necessary" and I kinda took that as either "doing it to get stronger" or "doing it because Kris knows the path he is being taken down to". I'm not totally sure about it.

It really depends since the major consensus believes that Kris doesn't actually want to do the shit he does in snowgrave, and its all on the player, which is given credence by Noelle on the hospital cutscene where she mentions Kris sounding different and if Kris gets knocked down during the Berdly fight, where she notes there's someone still talking to her. Also the context for the "it's natural" line is that Noelle was considering electrocuting Kris to death with that one fence you both need to step on to progress, and then Kris (or well, the player) tells her "it's natural" that she'd want him dead.
And as for the "humans and monsters shouldn't have been brought back together" debate, it reminds me to the problem stories have when they want to push an anti racism story when the "other races stand ins" have very different physiological needs and abilities to humans or whatever race they use in the setting, in that the more different they are, the more right the racists tend to be, (a perfect example is X men, where anti mutants become completely validated on their fear of mutants when some of them are completely capable to wipe out cities) and while i don't believe Toby wanted to do an anti racism story, it does share that problem with those stories.

 

[Colon capital V]

I also think we'd still have to wait until either the next or more chapters to come out before we can make the conclusion that "being in the darkworld CAN cause damages to you in the real world." Since I'm not totally convinced that Berdly is "absolutely dead" in snow grave or that his arm is forever busted. Maybe he's just temporarily unconscious or that his arm is fallen asleep for a while before both of them turn up fine the next day or two, who knows. We'll have to see probably once chapter 3 drops.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

@Peru oso donas

(a perfect example is X men, where anti mutants become completely validated on their fear of mutants when some of them are completely capable to wipe out cities) and while i don't believe Toby wanted to do an anti racism story, it does share that problem with those stories.

Has there ever been an example of a good anti racism story that didn't end up accidentally proving the racists right? Even the original undertale fucks that one up.

In some instances, it's handwaved as the monsters doing actions that unintentionally hurt Frisk. But it does just come down to Toby wanted to make a game where you aren't encouraged to fight and kill.

If that's the case then that means the humans were correct to seal the monsters underground and by unsealing the barrier you're just going to cause even more misery and death.

If monsters unintentionally hurt humans just by existing it means the two literally cannot coexist and by shattering the barrier you're going to cause a genocide of either humans or monsters.

If the humans physically cannot exist alongside the monsters and the monsters want to continue existing then there's only 1 logical outcome.

I mean it's super cannon that if a monster gets a human soul, they become so strong that they are capable of untold slaughter. The humans were right, that wall needs to be built.

The "True Pacifism" ending just leads to a second genocide.

 

[Peru oso donas]

Has there ever been an example of a good anti racism story that didn't end up accidentally proving the racists right? Even the original undertale fucks that one up.

I think the anti racism stories that hit their point the best are the ones that do the opposite that stuff like X men does: make up worlds that are disconnected from Earth that have their own different ethnic groups. Arcanum for PC, Gungnir for the PSP, Tear Ring Saga for the PSX and to a lesser degree, its indirect sequel, Berwick Saga for the PS2 are some works do exactly that and it works wonders for them (to Gungnir has its problems i ranted about in the bad vydia endings thread) to sperging about them into detail would be derailing the thread a bit, specially since I still believe that Toby didn't intend Undertale with a racism narrative and it's just that certain elements fall flat for the same reason that hacky racism bad stories tend to do.

 

[Nauseated Courgi]

Isn't Toriel suppose to be the player's first sign that monster aren't as bad you would assume? In fact, before you get into your first proper fight Toriel gives you a tutorial about ACTing and sparing enemies.

Any enemies you kill from then on would, of course, be on you seeing as you were told that option to spare them was there.

 

[Tinnitus]

Isn't Toriel suppose to be the player's first sign that monster aren't as bad you would assume? In fact, before you get into your first proper fight Toriel gives you a tutorial about ACTing and sparing enemies.

Any enemies you kill from then on would, of course, be on you seeing as you were told that option to spare them was there.

Issue is that every encounter except for Papyrus is gonna end up with you being killed.

I don´t know who exactly it was but they pointed out that Toriel did fuck all except for hiding out in the Ruins + carrying Chara´s corpse to the place you first fall in.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

In some instances, it's handwaved as the monsters doing actions that unintentionally hurt Frisk. But it does just come down to Toby wanted to make a game where you aren't encouraged to fight and kill.

The thing is, games without killing exist, Legend of Heroes and Atelier series are great examples. And those games always differentiate species with human like intelligence and treat them with the same no kill rule.

So Undertale isn't doing anything new in that regard since going "oh the monsters are just as cognisant as humans so killing them is wrong" would have had the same result in virtually every game.

It also misses another important rule with regards to killing in fiction - Heroes don't kill wolves that are far weaker than them because they are psychos, they kill wolves because those wolves eat children who can't defend themselves. Heroism isn't purely self gain, it's defending weaker people.

 

[Ἥλιος]

@Peru oso donas

I pretty much agree with you in that one of the game's biggest flaw in its narrative is that it completely disregards self defence to push the "spare everyone" message

Reminds me of some old posts I found referenced on 4chan a while ago.

 

[Peru oso donas]

@Peru oso donas

Reminds me of some old posts I found referenced on 4chan a while ago.
View attachment 4277101View attachment 4277111

I read that 2nd image until it said Alphys was sympathetic/admirable lmfao

 

[Suck the Cock]

Y'all're reading too much into this. I hate when people act like the in-universe morality is necessarily the creator's morality and every moral stance has to be explicitly stated to the player for it to count. An Undertale run where you murder virtually everybody is nearly identical to a "true pacifist" run, unless you've already beaten the game before and can get to the secret ending. Yes, people will call you out for being a murderer...because you killed their friends, and they're used to monster lives mattering more than humans. Sans will "judge your soul" or whatever but all he can judge is how many people you killed and how ok you are with it, he doesn't give a shit about any of your actions unless you specifically kill his brother, because that's the one person he cares about and knows is no risk to the player.

The genocide run plays it straight by showing you becoming a bad guy, because you're explicitly not just fighting in self-defense. The only way to win genocide runs is to stay in a dangerous area explicitly to kill monsters, murder people who aren't even attacking you, and continue pushing forward when the safest option is to just not keep killing. And yes, the pacifist run is the "good" ending, but that doesn't mean a neutral run is unreasonable and the equivalent of a normal human committing murder against another sentient species. Imagine some Gandhi-like figure who entered a war-torn country and managed to talk the warlords down while they were being shot at. That'd be incredible, everyone would rave about how good a person they were. That's the equivalent of the Undertale pacifist run.

 

[Dumpster dived waifu]

I read that 2nd image until it said Alphys was sympathetic/admirable lmfao

You don't think the pathetic neet too cowardly to openly betray you or help you so she just watches anime isn't admirable? Wonder why that might be.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Y'all're reading too much into this. I hate when people act like the in-universe morality is necessarily the creator's morality and every moral stance has to be explicitly stated to the player for it to count.

The problem is people praising that morality.

The genocide run plays it straight by showing you becoming a bad guy, because you're explicitly not just fighting in self-defense. The only way to win genocide runs is to stay in a dangerous area explicitly to kill monsters, murder people who aren't even attacking you, and continue pushing forward when the safest option is to just not keep killing.

No, it's because there is content you miss out for not playing it. I don't need this moralising bullshit for experiencing content I paid for.

Imagine some Gandhi-like figure who entered a war-torn country and managed to talk the warlords down while they were being shot at. That'd be incredible, everyone would rave about how good a person they were. That's the equivalent of the Undertale pacifist run.

Like the post above you said, it's far less incredible when that Ghandi is a time traveling demi god that can just reset before he lost.

Anyone who says this game's morality is good should be locked in a room with a maximum security prisoner, let's see him talk out of this.

 

[Nauseated Courgi]

No, it's because there is content you miss out for not playing it. I don't need this moralising bullshit for experiencing content I paid for.

But that's the thing, like @Suck the Cock said, you are going out of your way to kill the monsters by the hundreds. There's acting in self defense, and then there's actively looking for something to slay. You don't want the moralizing BS, but what you're doing in the Genocide run is morally reprehensible.

Like the post above you said, it's far less incredible when that Ghandi is a time traveling demi god that can just reset before he lost.

Anyone who says this game's morality is good should be locked in a room with a maximum security prisoner, let's see him talk out of this.

Undertale's message may not be realistic. Hell, I agree that it was sloppily handled, but this IS a fantasy game so it didn't have to adhere to real world logic in that regard. It was a game mostly developed by a single person, so logical flaws in the writing are to be expected.

It's not bad to want to get along with everyone, but it's also good to acknowledge that life is more complicated than that. Also, "lol calm down".

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

The problem is people praising that morality.


No, it's because there is content you miss out for not playing it. I don't need this moralising bullshit for experiencing content I paid for.

Like the post above you said, it's far less incredible when that Ghandi is a time traveling demi god that can just reset before he lost.

Anyone who says this game's morality is good should be locked in a room with a maximum security prisoner, let's see him talk out of this.

Bruh, you realize it’s a game right?

 

[ShitLurker]

@Peru oso donas

Reminds me of some old posts I found referenced on 4chan a while ago.
View attachment 4277101

Just want to shout out how Vash is one of the very few characters in fiction that shows the real cost of pacifism.

The only way to bring peace is to be capable of actually enforcing it. Just being a faggot and going cumbaya doesn't garuantee the opposition will play ball, Ghandi got lucky because the brits were cucks for optics at that point and couldn't be assed to keep their colonies in check anymore. The Dalai Lamah noticed how "peaceful leader" means fucking nothing when the oppresor gives no shits.

So yeah, Undertale... I find the morality preachy and heavy handed, but I give it a pass because I really like the characters (except Alphis, fuck weeb Mengele) and it made me laugh, but I also tend to be pretty lenient with small projects just in general. I also like the bullet hell system though only Undine the Undying and Sans really take it to it's limit, which is a bit of a waste that it's locked in the slog that is a genocide run.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Yes, people will call you out for being a murderer...because you killed their friends, and they're used to monster lives mattering more than humans. Sans will "judge your soul" or whatever but all he can judge is how many people you killed and how ok you are with it, he doesn't give a shit about any of your actions unless you specifically kill his brother, because that's the one person he cares about and knows is no risk to the player.

But that's the thing, like @Suck the Cock said, you are going out of your way to kill the monsters by the hundreds. There's acting in self defense, and then there's actively looking for something to slay. You don't want the moralizing BS, but what you're doing in the Genocide run is morally reprehensible.

Killing in self defence doesn't make you a murderer. All the people you can kill in the game except Papyrus want to kill you first, and half of them do it with full premeditated knowledge.

A run where you only kill people that try to kill you first still gets you the bad ending. The "good ending" is true pacifism where you have spare people who want to murder you to boost their tv ratings. That's some very fucked up morality the game is promoting.

Metatton is funny in the same way that bender, roger smith and the IASIP crew are funny, that doesn't mean those characters deserve ghandi to come down from heaven and personally hand deliver them mercy.

Asgore is literally a serial child murderer with 6 (7 if he kills frisk) victims.

Blindly forgiving everyone you meet regardless of crimes isn't morality, its retardation. I'd respect the game a fuckton more if you were asked to use your judgement on who deserves mercy and who doesn't.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Bruh, you realize it’s a game right?

Counterpoint: The fans are so delusional and retarded they gave the game to the pope.

 

[ShitLurker]

Counterpoint: The fans are so delusional and retarded they gave the game to the pope.

Christ, thanks for reminding me about that cringe.

 

[Local Degenerate]

Counterpoint: The fans are so delusional and retarded they gave the game to the pope.

Let's be fair here, as retarded as undertale fans is, that's not them, that's Matpat, who's so far beyond retarded, he loops back around to being an evil genius.

This is a man who scams children, montizes his friends suicide, and refuses to credit game devs until he gets scolded by daddy Toby.

That's not to say they wouldn't do so, but they didn't.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Let's be fair here, as retarded as undertale fans is, that's not them, that's Matpat, who's so far beyond retarded, he loops back around to being an evil genius.

Most undertale fans don't take much issue with the pope thing.

and refuses to credit game devs until he gets scolded by daddy Toby.

When did this happen?