The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mrolonzo]

What's your thesis exactly? What do you make of the initial estimates by historians, in the 50s and 60s? Well before the Holocaust had the global recognition it does today.

yes, unaddressed on this thread and by revisionists

Oh ok. How many deaths were there in total from typhus in 1943 and 1944 as opposed to 1942 in Auschwitz?

He asked Bombsaway to catalog every witness who had ever spoken about Transnistria. "At least how many of them "spoke profusely" about it? Provide a number" Bombsaway had previously given him a handful of names, but Lamprecht refused to engage and demanded every name,

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To this Lamprecht replied

View attachment 4498089

So it seems he wasn't too interested in the topic.

No answer given to the fundamental question 'why is there so much evidence for the Transnistrian resettlement but nothing for the much larger resettlement of Polish Jews in 42/43?'


Huh? No that's not my answer to the fundamental question.

Ok, what exactly does he say about it?

I don't think it happened on the same scale, but it probably happened quite a bit. I thought the STD developments in Japan were interesting, where at first there was a problem with rape around american military bases in occupied japan. Then the Japanese opened a brothel next to the american base and asked of Japanese prostitutes to work there to keep other women safe. Rape virtually disappeared. But STDs started to spread among the americans in the base. So they forced the brothel to close. And rapes went back up.

I'll admit that I haven't looked at this too closely so if someone knows more, feel free to correct me. There isn't yearly transfers of millions/billions of dollars, so it isn't as relevant.

Notably, Emmett Tills dad was executed by the allies for raping a number of Italian women. So rapes did occur, though the soviets were notorious for harming civilians not only German but Slavs as well.

@Chugger

I understand where you are coming from. But I've researched too many topics involving governments. Especially the US government, to believe any official narrative coming out of it. Out of hand.

"What you have to understand John, is that sometimes there are forces and events too big, too powerful, with so much at stake for other people or institutions, that you cannot do anything about them, no matter how evil or wrong they are, and no matter how dedicated or sincere you are, or how much evidence you have. That is simply one of the hard facts of life you will have to face."

CIA Director William Colby speaking to Senator John DeCamp

Indeed. Moreover, the holocaust myth was already being created during world war two by various activist groups. Much like for example goes on today. Ally that with the will of various states to justify their past and present actions and you've got a conspiracy to create a holocaust. This is clearly demonstrated in the various gay ops carried out by the allies and the Soviets in 1945.

 

[870EVO]

@Chugger

I understand where you are coming from. But I've researched too many topics involving governments. Especially the US government, to believe any official narrative coming out of it or their media mouthpieces. Out of hand.

"What you have to understand John, is that sometimes there are forces and events too big, too powerful, with so much at stake for other people or institutions, that you cannot do anything about them, no matter how evil or wrong they are, and no matter how dedicated or sincere you are, or how much evidence you have. That is simply one of the hard facts of life you will have to face."

CIA Director William Colby speaking to Senator John DeCamp (The Franklin Coverup 1992; DeCamp)

 

[RACISM]

History is written by the winniggers.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

Sure the media can be fed government talking points, but both in the US and West Germany are allowed to conduct investigations into government activity. Within the capitalist framework, this can be very lucrative ' a big story'

Hence Watergate or MKULTRA journalistic reveals

After watergate there was an order to destroy all MKultra documentation. Only because there was an error in how some documents were stored did they survive this purge, so they could be revealed by a FOIA.

How many journalists have covered the very real conspiracy going on today? The increased deaths that are not being investigated or covered, as high as +30% in some countries. The failure to cover how doctors were persecuted for speaking up. How a nobel prize winner was censored by a social media company for "misinformation".

The threat of saying things that powerful people disagree with is much more dangerous than having a conspiracy against the public, who are, on the whole, far too disorganised to pose a threat.

 

[Chugger]

What makes the Holoconspiracy especially unlikely to me is it would require coordinated effort between 3 different governments (US/West German/Soviet) for decades + suppression of many hundreds of thousands of people (if you think most of the deported Jews survived)

But I guess even accepting that all this would be possible for motivated actors to do, I think you need more than just motive to be able to firmly label something a conspiracy or not (yes I don't think there's a single piece of hard evidence suggesting Holoconspiracy)

Do you guys think most of these are faked too? (US was at war or antagonistic towards most of the perpetrator governments, so motive exists for manufacturing these genocides as well)

btw MKULTRA was widely reported on even before the 1977 FOIA discovery. The US government failed miserably in trying to cover up a relatively tiny operation

 

[mrolonzo]

What makes the Holoconspiracy especially unlikely to me is it would require coordinated effort between 3 different governments (US/West German/Soviet) for decades + suppression of many hundreds of thousands of people (if you think most of the deported Jews survived)

But I guess even accepting that all this would be possible for motivated actors to do, I think you need more than just motive to be able to firmly label something a conspiracy or not (yes I don't think there's a single piece of hard evidence suggesting Holoconspiracy)

Do you guys think most of these are faked too? (US was at war or antagonistic towards most of the perpetrator governments, so motive exists for manufacturing these genocides as well)

btw MKULTRA was widely reported on even before the 1977 FOIA discovery. The US government failed miserably in trying to cover up a relatively tiny operation

View attachment 4517118

1/ It doesn't require co-ordination to any great degree and any required is provided by Jewish groups.

2/ More than motive such as?

3/ Most of these are indeed faked.

 

[mrolonzo]

New Dean Irebodd video just dropped that is extremely relevant to the current area of discussion:

https://odysee.com/@Denierbud:0/ciaduringworldwar2:1

 

[870EVO]

What makes the Holoconspiracy especially unlikely to me is it would require coordinated effort between 3 different governments (US/West German/Soviet) for decades + suppression of many hundreds of thousands of people (if you think most of the deported Jews survived)

Most of the Major World Banks are owned by Jewish families.

What do all the influential World Leaders seem to do? Despite all apparent differences and goals?

Obama


Trump


Zelensky


Putin


And why can I be jailed in some countries for even discussing this with you?

 

[Lemmingwiser]

Do you guys think most of these are faked too?

I don't think mongol conquest even fits in the same category, because military conquest is materially different than what is inflicted. The mongols were no worse or better than others of their time. And like others if a city surrendered to them without a fight the pillaging, theft and murder would be minimal by comparison.

It's a really weird list overall with number 10 having a higher death count than 9, and number 9 having less death than than brazil/paraguay war.

There may well be exaggerations in either direction in these too. Are people that ask questions about these instantly villified? Do they lose their jobs? Is there a lack of material evidence that causes people to question the events as presented?

---

Do you believe the officially presented account of the september 11 attacks?

 

[Chugger]

What do all the influential World Leaders seem to do? Despite all apparent differences and goals?

We don't need a conspiracy here when pro-Israel lobby influence is so overt in US politics. Not quite the case with the rest of the world including Russia, and military aid from the USSR (the country revisionists believe had the greatest role in genocide fakery) basically formed the backbone of the numerous armies which were trying to end Israel's existence throughout the 60s and 70s

And why can I be jailed in some countries for even discussing this with you?

I don't think anyone has ever been jailed for anonymous forum posts, but we can look at the reasons given by the Jewish groups themselves that are pushing this. They associate holocaust denial with anti-semitism, ultimately think deniers are completely unreasonable and cannot be reached or interacted with due to their strong racism and biases. The only way to deal with these people is punishment and censorship.

We can also see that people are being jailed for denying Soviet crimes so its not even exclusive http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

It's a really weird list overall with number 10 having a higher death count than 9, and number 9 having less death than than brazil/paraguay war.

Yeah I didn't mean to present the list in any authoritative way. Rather just trying to give a general picture of the highest profile genocides.

The numbers are off and they're missing major genocides, eg those perpetuated by Japan against China

Do you believe the officially presented account of the september 11 attacks?

Yes. I don't know about the official version, but whatever is up on wikipedia seems good. They were self-directed terrorist attacks and the rationale presented seems sound

There is also (unlike the Holocaust, Watergate, MKULTRA, Unit 731) no hard evidence of a conspiracy, or at least I haven't seen anything

Do you believe this happened? Do you believe Japan conducted biological warfare against the Chinese population including under the heading ' Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department' ?

 

[870EVO]

Yes. I don't know about the official version, but whatever is up on wikipedia seems good. They were self-directed terrorist attacks and the rationale presented seems sound

The funny thing about wikipedia is. The shills will keep a primary page on lockdown. But looking around, you'll find they are too stupid to whitewash tangental pages.


Written before the September 11 attacks and during political debates of the War in Iraq, a section of Rebuilding America's Defenses entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force" became the subject of considerable controversy: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."[48]

Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some have proposed that the actual motive for the United States-led Western invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 was Afghanistan's importance as a conduit for oil pipelines to Afghanistan's neighbouring countries, by effectively bypassing Russian and Iranian territories, and breaking the Russian and Iranian collective monopoly on regional energy supplies.[2]

Afghanistan Oil Pipeline - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Since the pipeline was to pass through Afghanistan, it was necessary to work with the Taliban. Construction on the project started in Turkmenistan on 13 December 2015[3] and was completed by mid-2019.[20] Construction on the Afghan side started on 24 February 2018, while construction on the Pakistan side is planned to start by October 2019 and be completed in 2020.[20] The Taliban have vowed to cooperate and not disrupt the project in areas they control.[21][22]

Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakistan–India Pipeline - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Funny that the US "Accidentally" left all those weapons, equipment and vehicles for the Taliban isn't it?

 

[Lemmingwiser]

Yes. I don't know about the official version, but whatever is up on wikipedia seems good.

You don't find it odd that they found the passports of the pilots on the ground quite quickly?

That there was a BBC news program that reported building 7 having collapsed, while it could still be seen standing in the background?

That on a normal day there would be readyness of military planes being capable of intercepting but on this day they had been ordered to do training that prevented them from being able to do so?

That even in the official version there had actually been an advance warning of the threat, which was ignored?

That a building 7 managed to collapse at all despite not even being hit by a plane, when thrse buildings had been built specifically to survive planes hitting them?

That the pentagon had specifically been hit where all documents storing the missing 2.3 trillion were kept? The fact that it was missing having been announced on the fortuitous 10 september.

The fact that the owner of the twin towers did not show up to work that day because he had to go to the doctor. Only despite his claim, he never went to the doctor. His other family that worked daily in the tower were also not working that day.

He was insured against terrorist attacks, and got a double payoff as he argued succesfully in court because there were two planes, he received double the payout of a terrorist attack, receiving more money than he had put in.

There had been higher amount of option trading in the chicago stock exchange than ever before, netting millions in profit due to their bet that american airlines would take a dip in value. But the official 9/11 commission report, regarded by wikipedia as the gold standard of truth in this event, says that no insider trading has happened.

The political clout was used to start a war and even according to official sources started a shadow government under "continuation of government".

You look at all that and say, hey nothing seems fishy there.

 

[Chugger]

Last week I lost my phone, I found out I would have to junk my car, I lost a microphone, and broke my synthesizer. Normally something this unlucky happens to me once year, if that, but this was just one week. Obviously this does not indicate a real world conspiracy, but maybe a mystical one. Is Karma real? Some people are going to be convinced by shit like this, not saying any of you, but there's a lot of people who think this way. Admittedly the more likely explanation is really boring. Coincidences happen.

At a certain point yeah circumstances are not going to be explainable except with a conspiracy, but I don't think any example I've looked into re 9/11 gets remotely near that level. My experience here is I watched the streamer Destiny watch and review this documentary (highly regarded by 9/11 truth movement) THE NEW PEARL HARBOR in prep for a debate with Nick Fuentes

(if memory serves the theory of this video is that the US government hijacked these planes with agents, grounded them, forced the passengers at gunpoint to call family members and tell them the plane was hijacked by middle eastern terrorists. Then the US Government executed all the passengers. Then they 'replaced' the planes with specialized military planes capable of advanced maneuvering and flew them into the buildings. Then the buildings were brought down with controlled demolitions that had been covertly prepared in the weeks or days prior)

Ultimately for something this insane, I'm going to need to see some evidence.

We can compare it to the Holocaust, which also, admittedly, sounds insane

Do we have motive? Yes. The Nazis didn't want to feed millions of unemployable Jews, they hated Jews and blamed them for most of Germany's misfortunes, they didn't want them to be around after

Do we have fishy "coincidences"? Yes. eg the world's Jewish population still hasn't returned to the level reported in the 1930s, or the silence of the probably millions of witnesses to whatever happened to the deported Jews

Really these coincidences can only be explained by invoking another conspiracy. This is all just a battle of conspiracies. The difference comes down to evidence. If there weren't any documents or witness testimonies or studies indicating mass killing at camps I wouldn't believe in it.

 

[mrolonzo]

Last week I lost my phone, I found out I would have to junk my car, I lost a microphone, and broke my synthesizer. Normally something this unlucky happens to me once year, if that, but this was just one week. Obviously this does not indicate a real world conspiracy, but maybe a mystical one. Is Karma real? Some people are going to be convinced by shit like this, not saying any of you, but there's a lot of people who think this way. Admittedly the more likely explanation is really boring. Coincidences happen.

At a certain point yeah circumstances are not going to be explainable except with a conspiracy, but I don't think any example I've looked into re 9/11 gets remotely near that level. My experience here is I watched the streamer Destiny watch and review this documentary (highly regarded by 9/11 truth movement) THE NEW PEARL HARBOR in prep for a debate with Nick Fuentes

(if memory serves the theory of this video is that the US government hijacked these planes with agents, grounded them, forced the passengers at gunpoint to call family members and tell them the plane was hijacked by middle eastern terrorists. Then the US Government executed all the passengers. Then they 'replaced' the planes with specialized military planes capable of advanced maneuvering and flew them into the buildings. Then the buildings were brought down with controlled demolitions that had been covertly prepared in the weeks or days prior)

Ultimately for something this insane, I'm going to need to see some evidence.

We can compare it to the Holocaust, which also, admittedly, sounds insane

Do we have motive? Yes. The Nazis didn't want to feed millions of unemployable Jews, they hated Jews and blamed them for most of Germany's misfortunes, they didn't want them to be around after

Do we have fishy "coincidences"? Yes. eg the world's Jewish population still hasn't returned to the level reported in the 1930s, or the silence of the probably millions of witnesses to whatever happened to the deported Jews

Really these coincidences can only be explained by invoking another conspiracy. This is all just a battle of conspiracies. The difference comes down to evidence. If there weren't any documents or witness testimonies or studies indicating mass killing at camps I wouldn't believe in it.

Interesting. But while you may tell yourself the nazis wanted to be responsible for Jews they then decided to just kill them by impossible means using telepathy this is insane and the idea that the nazis conspired to kill and disappear millions of Jews just because is obviously just a conspiracy theory hacked up by intelligence agents as you admit. It's just one conspiracy theory too far.

The 9/11 stuff is fascinating but ultimately very different from the holocaust. The events did occur. People died. The question being, who really started it off.

 

[870EVO]

Do we have motive? Yes. The Nazis didn't want to feed millions of unemployable Jews, they hated Jews and blamed them for most of Germany's misfortunes, they didn't want them to be around after

The Americans hated the Germans and Japanese, due to media exposure, and suspicion. They were put in internment camps, due to the war. Did they kill them? No Americans are humane, unlike Germans.

It's just odd to me there seems to be a logical disconnect there. Exactly what makes Americans more humane than Germans?

If Nazis invaded the United States, would they have said the internment camps were actually death camps? To justify their invasion to their public?

Something to think about.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

Last week I lost my phone, I found out I would have to junk my car, I lost a microphone, and broke my synthesizer. Normally something this unlucky happens to me once year, if that, but this was just one week. Obviously this does not indicate a real world conspiracy, but maybe a mystical one. Is Karma real? Some people are going to be convinced by shit like this, not saying any of you, but there's a lot of people who think this way. Admittedly the more likely explanation is really boring. Coincidences happen.

At a certain point yeah circumstances are not going to be explainable except with a conspiracy, but I don't think any example I've looked into re 9/11 gets remotely near that level. My experience here is I watched the streamer Destiny watch and review this documentary (highly regarded by 9/11 truth movement) THE NEW PEARL HARBOR in prep for a debate with Nick Fuentes

(if memory serves the theory of this video is that the US government hijacked these planes with agents, grounded them, forced the passengers at gunpoint to call family members and tell them the plane was hijacked by middle eastern terrorists. Then the US Government executed all the passengers. Then they 'replaced' the planes with specialized military planes capable of advanced maneuvering and flew them into the buildings. Then the buildings were brought down with controlled demolitions that had been covertly prepared in the weeks or days prior)

Ultimately for something this insane, I'm going to need to see some evidence.

We can compare it to the Holocaust, which also, admittedly, sounds insane

Do we have motive? Yes. The Nazis didn't want to feed millions of unemployable Jews, they hated Jews and blamed them for most of Germany's misfortunes, they didn't want them to be around after

Do we have fishy "coincidences"? Yes. eg the world's Jewish population still hasn't returned to the level reported in the 1930s, or the silence of the probably millions of witnesses to whatever happened to the deported Jews

Really these coincidences can only be explained by invoking another conspiracy. This is all just a battle of conspiracies. The difference comes down to evidence. If there weren't any documents or witness testimonies or studies indicating mass killing at camps I wouldn't believe in it.

I have never heard of the documentary. It's interesting at least that youtube searching for "the new pearl harbor" does not show the video.

Another one of those meaningless coincidences, eh? Like losing your keys.

Your second retort is motive, when I've already supplied you motive. Then finally you go to evidence.

Did the US genocide japanese christians?

 

[mrolonzo]

The Americans hated the Germans and Japanese, due to media exposure, and suspicion. They were put in internment camps, due to the war. Did they kill them? No Americans are humane, unlike Germans.

It's just odd to me there seems to be a logical disconnect there. Exactly what makes Americans more humane than Germans?

If Nazis invaded the United States, would they have said the internment camps were actually death camps? To justify their invasion to their public?

Something to think about.

Or rather, would the soviet union have said this upon taking California ?

 

[Chugger]

The Americans hated the Germans and Japanese, due to media exposure, and suspicion. They were put in internment camps, due to the war. Did they kill them? No Americans are humane, unlike Germans.

It's just odd to me there seems to be a logical disconnect there. Exactly what makes Americans more humane than Germans?

Yeah I think people have a misapprehension of the history if they think the Nazis genocided because they were more 'evil' or less humane or whatever. Rather it was a question of ideological commitment, and practical realities.

In terms of ideological commitment, anti-semitism was a core part (arguably nothing was more important) of the Nazi platform since its inception. Well before the war started the Nazis turned Jews into second class citizens that were treated far worse than blacks in the Jim Crow south. So there's no real comparison there to Japanese Americans who were imprisoned only during wartime based on suspected allegiance to a country the US was in a huge military conflict with.

Practically speaking, there was no food shortage in America. I think if Nazi Germany had had the food supply and resources of America they wouldn't have done what they did, despite really strong ideological commitments. If the Americans had seen a necessity in killing hundreds of thousands of civilians to win the war, certainly they would have done it. In fact they did do exactly this, to both Japan and Germany.

Another one of those meaningless coincidences, eh? Like losing your keys.

No coincidence there, Youtube has public policy of flagging controversial content and often bans or shadowbans it. This is still not a good indicator of a mass conspiracy, because there are other very reasonable explanations for the policy.

Your second retort is motive, when I've already supplied you motive. Then finally you go to evidence.

My point was that motive and coincidences alone should not be reason enough to believe in something that sounds insane, but even if considering only these things, Holocaust is indicated much more heavily than other conspiracies like 9/11 truth.

Did the US genocide japanese christians?

They genocided Japanese people yes (I consider bombing of cities with the intention of killing civilians to be genocide) so yeah I'm sure there were some Christians there too. I'm not seeing what your angle is here.

 

[mrolonzo]

Yeah I think people have a misapprehension of the history if they think the Nazis genocided because they were more 'evil' or less humane or whatever. Rather it was a question of ideological commitment, and practical realities.

In terms of ideological commitment, anti-semitism was a core part (arguably nothing was more important) of the Nazi platform since its inception. Well before the war started the Nazis turned Jews into second class citizens that were treated far worse than blacks in the Jim Crow south. So there's no real comparison there to Japanese Americans who were imprisoned only during wartime based on suspected allegiance to a country the US was in a huge military conflict with.

Practically speaking, there was no food shortage in America. I think if Nazi Germany had had the food supply and resources of America they wouldn't have done what they did, despite really strong ideological commitments. If the Americans had seen a necessity in killing hundreds of thousands of civilians to win the war, certainly they would have done it. In fact they did do exactly this, to both Japan and Germany.


No coincidence there, Youtube has public policy of flagging controversial content and often bans or shadowbans it. This is still not a good indicator of a mass conspiracy, because there are other very reasonable explanations for the policy.


My point was that motive and coincidences alone should not be reason enough to believe in something that sounds insane, but even if considering only these things, Holocaust is indicated much more heavily than other conspiracies like 9/11 truth.


They genocided Japanese people yes (I consider bombing of cities with the intention of killing civilians to be genocide) so yeah I'm sure there were some Christians there too. I'm not seeing what your angle is here.

Genocide is in fact a new term. Used more for polemic reasons than observational.

In any case the central idea from your post is that the nazis chose mass murder because they were running out of resources.

Which is of course, again, just a conspiracy theory.

 

[870EVO]

Genocide is in fact a new term. Used more for polemic reasons than observational.

In any case the central idea from your post is that the nazis chose mass murder because they were running out of resources.

Which is of course, again, just a conspiracy theory.

You could make the argument Jews and the others held at the camps did die. But not at the hands of the Nazis. The Allies had bombed the shit out of the country. And due to the war, destruction of industry and supply lines, priority for food supplies went to the people other than the second class citizens.