The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mrolonzo]

You could make the argument Jews and the others held at the camps did die. But not at the hands of the Nazis. The Allies had bombed the shit out of the country. And due to the war, destruction of industry and supply lines, priority for food supplies went to the people other than the second class citizens.

Indeed and there's not a country in the world where the same wouldn't happen.

I don't think there was any revisionism re the 6 million figure. You could argue that there has been a revision upwards from the first serious estimates which were 4.5- 5 million.


I think there were claims of 4, 5, 6 million. Most of these were total guesstimates or based on single source witness testimony, eg some guy saying Eichmann told him 6 million were killed. Even the Nazis put some estimates into print, but something like this is an obvious guesstimate

View attachment 4500638

The evidence based estimates which came later, as well as any hypothetical estimate, would necessarily be similar to these numbers, yes.

As far as I know, no detailed evidence based estimates were made until Reitlinger's "Final Solution" in the mid 50s. Reitlingers estimate was 4.5 million, which would be anticipated by both claims of 4 million and 5 million. Double suspicious? I hope you can see how ridiculous this view is. Reitlinger justified his estimate by referencing docs like the Korherr report as well as transport logs, SS police shooting reports, etc, not uncorroborated estimates like the ones made previously.


The Holohoax is more than just writing a few articles in the paper or making a few newsreels . According to revisionists, we are looking at a coordinated campaign of mass document destruction and forgery, as well as mass witness suppression (all witnesses to resettlement) and coercion of hundreds of witnesses into giving false testimony, without anyone reneging. Oh and as the story goes in most of the camps cremains are still in the ground and have been identified by archeologists so any physical investigation would quickly blow the story up.

Given the risk of this conspiracy being discovered, absolutely no I don't think it would be worth trying to carry it out. If something like this became public it would reify every anti semitic conspiracy theory, and probably lead to a massive upswing in Nazi sympathies, which wouldn't be ideal for occupying forces.

And the Nazis did enough bad things that truthfully it wasn't necessary to manufacture a genocide as a cherry on top.

Revisionists currently agree the Nazis did the following, which were all tried at Nuremberg and various post-war trials

Euthanized hundreds of thousands of people secretly and against the will of their families
Lebensborn program ("kidnapping" racially hygienic children)
Subjecting millions of civilians to forced labor
Colonization and deportation plans for 50+ million people
Wartime hunger planning which lead to millions of POWS and Soviet civilians starving to death
Mass shootings of civilians at a level totally unprecedented in European history

Revisionists will try to justify most of these things, but they admit they happened, and to your average non-nazi person all of these things will seem really bad

It also should be noted that the Holocaust was never really publicized and was something of a footnote to WW2 until the 60s and 70s. By then the bad guy was the USSR, so the political usefulness of manufacturing a genocide at that time was probably close to zero.

As everyone knows, the numbers issue has been dealt with here extremely well. There is no support for anywhere near 6 million, these are pie in sky dreams of exterminationist propagandists, not serious in any way shape or form.. 300000 is a reasonable number we can all get behind without any problems and just makes sense.

The evidence of a conspiracy to propagandise the public is extensive and documented clearly in the video I literally just dropped and others. The judicial farce of the nmt trials themselves were apparently an intelligence operation with agents populating the participants throughout. The fact of these trials again, shows a conspiracy to deceive the public over and over. The soviets are well known to create elaborate schemes in advance of their causes as are the allies before during and after the war. The reason it isn't discovered is simply because all these states deny the public full access to all information even after the traditional 30 year time frame is expired and media have no interest in stirring up problems for a state when the state really wants something to happen as we see every day with post 9/11 wars, covid19 and the Ukraine government.

Nevertheless, because it is in fact a hoax without foundation, or alot of hot air, these lies have little weight when tested.

1/ Revisionists agree that nazis euthanized a limited number of germans as was the style the time. They were open about it when asked and justified it. As usual no one who accuses the nazis of a crime here actually goes into detail.

2/ The Lebensborn project was widely known at the time, was rather conservative in nature, but of course it was sexualised later by degenerate people. See attached.

3/ Subjecting civilians to forced labor is not wrong. Any state had the right at the time to do that in its own interest and every state involved did so. You seem to forget that the nazis, elected to power, decided that jews were an enemy population to be deported. This project required work.

4/ Same for colonialisation and deportation. All within the right of states to act in their interest. Similar things were done by all before during and after ww2.

5/ Wartime hunger planning as an accusation against nazis was debunked in this thread. It was war tactics and scorched earth that led to food problems nothing more and this problem has plenty of precedent.

6/ Mass shootings of civilians is again legitimate as civilians have never been allowed to pose as combatants. Where they do the punishment is usually severe. Civilians in the east had no reason to participate in combat against German armed forces.

7/ Revisionists do indeed admit they occurred and justified them. When normal people are aware of the historical context, and that what the nazis did is no different from anyone else did - they always side with us. Because obviously we are correct. This is shown here in this forum and everywhere where free discussion is allowed.

8/ The holocaust was a wartime myth making propaganda project of the allies and their activist supporters in the GG. As part of denazification it continued as the cold war was getting started. It didn't really have any scholastic support beyond bullshit stories until people like Hilberg turned up.

But nevertheless even before the 60s, what with thethe Suez crisis seing the west find it still needed a Hitler to encourage people to fight, then into the 60s a new racial settlement in the USA that featured rapidly growing Jewish influence with the linking of the Jewish plight to minority rights, the increasing influence of Israel in every aspect of western politics more and more books began to be written about this. The fact that they were mostly self referential was ignored as increasingly in media culture a new hyper reality began to take shape, people believed things automatically they were told in print and on screen while the USA began the cold war expansion of an empire of liberal propaganda. But of course, when of course eventually someone who defied holocaust propaganda outside of Germany was brought to trial - the hoax was exposed.

 

[Chugger]

@mrolonzo says, in reference to my list of "bad thing" Nazis did:

When normal people are aware of the historical context, and that what the nazis did is no different from anyone else did - they always side with us.

the Lebensborn program, to choose one "bad thing", entailed in part the kidnapping and abduction of hundreds of thousands of non-German children, totally separating them from their families and bringing them into the fatherland to be raised as Germans.

No, mrolonzo, I don't think normal people are going to be on board with this. Hell I doubt even most white nationalists (who don't distinguish between Poles and Germans in terms of value) are going to be on your side. This is delusional. You have kids right? You should spend more time with them. I feel like I'm enabling you by responding, so this is probably it for us

 

[mrolonzo]

@mrolonzo says, in reference to my list of "bad thing" Nazis did:


the Lebensborn program, to choose one "bad thing", entailed in part the kidnapping and abduction of hundreds of thousands of non-German children, totally separating them from their families and bringing them into the fatherland to be raised as Germans.

No, mrolonzo, I don't think normal people are going to be on board with this. Hell I doubt even most white nationalists (who don't distinguish between Poles and Germans in terms of value) are going to be on your side. This is delusional. You have kids right? You should spend more time with them. I feel like I'm enabling you by responding, so this is probably it for us

1/ I just told you what it really was. It was widely advertised and well known. Are you disagreeing with me about this or assuming I just take whatever you say about a nazi associated event and go with that?

2/ You feel like you're enabling me? Chugger, get this through your head. Everything you say about the nazis requires scrutiny and is most likely the opposite of what you say it is. How do you feel about me saying that to you?

3/ Look, Chugger, most revisionists who've discussed things with you feel that you're a deeply dishonest interlocutor. Do you get that too?

 

[Chugger]

1/ I just told you what it really was. It was widely advertised and well known. Are you disagreeing with me about this or assuming I just take whatever you say about a nazi associated event and go with that?

I made a mistake in saying hundreds of thousands of children were abducted and raised as Germans (I was conflating this with children taken for forced labor which is also not good). It was tens of thousands, and this is well established in the documentary and witness record, which I have seen no revisionist response to. Saying it didn't happen is not enough, you have to address the evidence at hand.

Justification was given which you probably will agree with eg in this Himmler speech

Spend time with your children. Normal people, and even a lot of white nationalists, will never be on board with your neo-nazi movement.

2/ You feel like you're enabling me? Chugger, get this through your head. Everything you say about the nazis requires scrutiny and is most likely the opposite of what you say it is. How do you feel about me saying that to you?

I'm not surprised or bothered by it. I think you're delusional.

3/ Look, Chugger, most revisionists who've discussed things with you feel that you're a deeply dishonest interlocutor. Do you get that too?

No I don't think that's true, but I understand why you think that

 

[mrolonzo]

I made a mistake in saying hundreds of thousands of children were abducted and raised as Germans (I was conflating this with children taken for forced labor which is also not good). It was tens of thousands, and this is well established in the documentary and witness record, which I have seen no revisionist response to. Saying it didn't happen is not enough, you have to address the evidence at hand.

Justification was given which you probably will agree with eg in this Himmler speech

View attachment 4559546

Spend time with your children. Normal people, and even a lot of white nationalists, will never be on board with your neo-nazi movement.

I'm not surprised or bothered by it. I think you're delusional.


No I don't think that's true, but I understand why you think that

1/ Right so straight away you're over stating the case and then simply assert that its "well established".

2/ This automatically subverts the nazis wanted to kill all slavs meme.

3/ Lebensborn accusations are out , because that was instead a conservative programme for unwed women.

4/ As evidence for the kidnapping of 10000 blonde children you offer a Himmler speech. With no link. No revisionist approved translation. Why?

5/ Why are you telling me to spend time with my children? Do you even have children?

6/ We aren't bringing Hitler back. We're not German. We're bringing nativism and nationalism, the underlying reasons for the NSDAP itself back. You can't stop that. No one can and we've got support for this all across the world.

7/ I'm glad at least you understand where you stand with me. Everything you say is suspicious because as a holocaust peddler dealing in half truths and ridiculous allegations is your trade. As is shown again and again in this thread where I own and shame you over and over but you act as if no conversation has ever occurred.

Want to show a holocaust but can't show the energy required? Simply assert that extra body fat does the trick.

Can't show the math? Simply move on to Nazis wanted to kill Slavs!

Can't show nazis wanting to kill Slavs? Then simply assert that nazis were mean to people during the war!

Over and over again.

The thing is. We both know that in real life if we both met your bullshit would be over in seconds when we shook hands. You'd simply agree with me about everything and that'd be the end of it.


Most people on this thread agree with me. This is typical because I tell them straight, being the actual arguments from the real scholars that they recognise straight away as doing the best writing and therefore bring truth. You've never brought us the works of a holocaust peddling author despite the books on this from them numbering in thousands.. why? Because their writings are laughable. That's why.

8/ Yes, you don't think you're a dishonest interlocutor. Remind me, was it you that played as a Revisionist, as G10spana, on codoh or History Speaks?

9/ Why can't a holocaust peddler like yourself just be completely honest at all times?

For example, tell codoh from the start that despite the hard evidence issues you feel that witness statements and a few documents can be interpreted to create a holocaust. When they ask you for something hard simply say you don't have any but you're sticking to your guns anyway because the implications of being wrong are too staggering. This would have been your truly honest position.

10/ Before I got into this stuff it was after decades of pondering, I even refused to read into it for years and years because I knew it would be too much for me. You however, refused to read revisionism first but instead wanted to battle revisionists straight away after reading the holocaust controversies blog. Why?

 

[Chugger]

The thing is. We both know that in real life if we both met your bullshit would be over in seconds when we shook hands. You'd simply agree with me about everything and that'd be the end of it.

Why lol? if I didn't think you were gonna try to beat me up or something

I'd voice convo with you anytime, for the record. I've often asked revisionists but nobody has taken me up on this.

 

[AgendaPoster]

And why can I be jailed in some countries for even discussing this with you?

The fact that I, as a native, am less protected against speech targeting my ethnicity compared to the Jewish ethnic group who barely numbers around 2K people is FUCKING LUNACY.
IDGAF about all this sperging about bathrooms and chems and wooden doors and cozy ovens and the sort, but the speshul protections must go.

 

[BULLY HUNTER_78]

Hey guys, I come with an update about my dead grandpa, who was both a frontline WWII veteran and an avid holocaust denier. Finding about this apparent lived experience has made me begin to question the evidence presented at the Nuremberg trials, which had previously addressed the wooden door and oven issues to my satisfaction. I unfortunately was never able to discuss the subject with him while he was still alive, so I'm hoping some of the more avidly conspiratorial history buffs of this thread will help me fill in the gaps to what is frankly third-hand hearsay at this point.

When I pressed my mom further about his opinions, all she could remember was that he kept talking about the Vanderbilts and Rothschilds. He was also apparently subscribed to some "questionable" newsletters. His house was inhereted by an Aunt, so it's likely she's thrown away all his old stuff. I may make a trip there later to see what I can find, if additional context is still needed.

My open question to this thread is as follows: What precisely is the known Vanderbilt/Rothschild connection to the holocaust? I'm hoping one of you can help me piece together what he may have been thinking.

 

[mrolonzo]

Why lol? if I didn't think you were gonna try to beat me up or something

I'd voice convo with you anytime, for the record. I've often asked revisionists but nobody has taken me up on this.

1/ Probably because it's harder to just lie to people's faces and you can't just change the subject. Have you thought about talking to Jim Rizoli or some such? Rudolf is on the run so that's out for now obviously.

2/ The rothchilds connection relates more to churchill and his backers, and his un ceasing quest for war, than it does to the holocaust per se. David Irving is good on this. Churchill was deeply in debt at one point early before the war. Then suddenly he wasn't. The thinking is its either due to payments from czech intelligence, a group of Jewish financiers known as the focus group or both. In any case a soviet foreign diplomat wrote an extensive book about how surprised he was at churchill's intransigence to the extent that he thought churchill was a soviet agent.

fTheact that I, as a native, am less protected against speech targeting my ethnicity compared to the Jewish ethnic group who barely numbers around 2K people is FUCKING LUNACY.
IDGAF about all this sperging about bathrooms and chems and wooden doors and cozy ovens and the sort, but the speshul protections must go.

That's just it. They won't go until the lies go.

 

[History Speaks]

No revisionist approved translation.

Almost no "revisionists" can speak German. But funny enough, one of the very few who can—Carlos Porter—provided a translation of the exact speech Chugger cited, Himmler's 4 October 1943 Posen speech for CODOH. https://codoh.com/library/document/heinrich-himmlers-posen-speech-from-04101943/en/

I quote Himmler, from Porter's "revisionist approved" translation (bolding mine):

For the SS Man, one principle must apply absolutely: we must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own blood, and to no one else. What happens to the Russians, the Czechs, is totally indifferent to me.

Here, Himmler clearly evinces a genocidal attitude towards Slavic populations.

Whatever is available to us in good blood of our type, we will take for ourselves, that is, we will steal their children and bring them up with us, if necessary.

This remark by Himmler corroborates Lebensborn—the practice of kidnapping of supposedly Aryan children from Polish parents for Germanization—and the policy of killing Slavs or working them to death whenever it was beneficial for the war effort.

Whether other races live well or die of hunger is only of interest to me insofar as we need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise that doesn't interest me. Whether 10,000 Russian women fall down from exhaustion in building a tank ditch is of interest to me only insofar as the tank ditches are finished for Germany.

Here Himmler expresses indifference to working ten thousand white female civilians to death. My god were the Nazis anti-white, worst practitioners of white genocide (or more specifically Slavic genocide) in history.

Himmler also here alludes to the Nazi vision of Eastern Europe after a German victory in the war, one in which Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, etc were reduced to slaves for Germany.

We will never be hard and heartless when it is not necessary; that is clear. We Germans, the only ones in the world with a decent attitude towards animals, will also adopt a decent attitude with regards to these human animals

Here, Himmler reassures his listener that the SS will not be gratuitously cruel to Slavs, provided it is not necessary, but will behave 'decently'.

Cold comfort after he has already advocated enslaving and working to death these eastern european populations, but it's a change of tone.

But then Himmler says:

When somebody comes to me and says, "I can't build tank ditches with children or women. That's inhumane, they'll die doing it." Then I must say: "You are a murderer of your own blood, since, if the tank ditches are not built, then German soldiers will die, and they are the sons of German mothers. That is our blood."

Here, Himmler expresses contempt for the weak souls who say it is inhumane to work Slavic children and women to death for Germany. These frivolous humanitarians, Himmler scoffs, are 'murderers of their own blood.'

 

[870EVO]

the Lebensborn program, to choose one "bad thing", entailed in part the kidnapping and abduction of hundreds of thousands of non-German children, totally separating them from their families and bringing them into the fatherland to be raised as Germans.

Australia did this around the 1930's-1950's I think? They took the children away from Aboriginal parents, since they were living virtually naked in the bush, subsisting on grubs, and raised them "European". 50 Years later those half-caste children are demanding gibs and the entire fisaco has been politicized and weaponized.

And so now the Australian Aboriginals are considered politically untouchable. The Australian school system teaches you so. So the Government built towns for the Aboriginals to live how they wanted, and give them free money. And since then, theres been nothing coming out of those towns other than news of alcohol abuse, gas and paint huffing, rape, incest, pedophilia. But the Government has it's hands politically tied. If they tried to intervene with Police or Armed forces again, the majority lefty Media would destroy them.

I'm not saying theres a direct comparison to be made. I'm just bringing up another Government that did a similar thing.

 

[Chugger]

Probably because it's harder to just lie to people's faces and you can't just change the subject. Have you thought about talking to Jim Rizoli or some such?

Yeah I agree there are a lot of advantages to voice convos. I think I'd rather talk to you over Rizoli since we're so familiar with each others arguments. Do you want to do this? (your post seemed like a bit of a provocation here "your bullshit would be over in seconds")

Thanks for the Codoh link History Speaks. What's going on with your Holocaust debate with Mike P? I think it was supposed to be around this time.

 

[mrolonzo]

Yeah I agree there are a lot of advantages to voice convos. I think I'd rather talk to you over Rizoli since we're so familiar with each others arguments. Do you want to do this? (your post seemed like a bit of a provocation here "your bullshit would be over in seconds")

Thanks for the Codoh link History Speaks. What's going on with your Holocaust debate with Mike P? I think it was supposed to be around this time.

No my arguments are no different than Rizoli's. Would you like to discuss matters with Jim Rizoli?

 

[History Speaks]

What's going on with your Holocaust debate with Mike P?

In point of fact, I just emailed him.

I would estimate the debate will be between late March and May. I think he is actually going to do it, based on our latest correspondence. He is busy with his "justice party" stuff and I am also busy, but we'll find a time.

I have also produced another anti-denial video, which should be on YouTube within the next day or two. I plan in general to be more active on YT and twitter and even here lol, although less so here.

But main thing I want to report is that the Peinovich-MGC debate is happening, and probably sometime within the next couple months. Will keep you all updated.

 

[Chugger]

No my arguments are no different than Rizoli's. Would you like to discuss matters with Jim Rizoli?

I would talk to Rizoli, but I would prefer to talk to you. I do think your arguments are different. I've never heard him bring up Mattogno whereas you have referenced him hundreds of times, also Rizoli seems unwilling to talk about things like resettlement whereas to your credit you are game.

Are you saying you don't want to talk to me, even though (from your perspective) it would be an easy conversation?

the Peinovich-MGC debate is happening

excellent, is it going to be live?

 

[History Speaks]

excellent, is it going to be live?

Of course, an "edited" debate would be no debate at all.

 

[mrolonzo]

Absolutely. I do not want to talk to you despite the easy discourse that would result. This is simply because denying the holocaust is uniquely dangerous to those not already retired from public life and who wish to keep their position and family.

Jim Rizoli doesn't refer so much to Mattogno. You're correct. In fact he would likely demand first that you accept that the holocaust in the west didn't happen before he would entertain the where did they go question. For me I simply go along with codoh, which as a research body seeks to answer all aspects of the issue.

 

[History Speaks]

I do not want to talk to you despite the easy discourse that would result. This is simply because denying the holocaust is uniquely dangerous to those not already retired from public life and who wish to keep their position and family.

Sounds like a cop-out to me. It's pretty obvious chugger is not the type of individual who would want to harm you for the "crime" of holding crackpot views on history. Nor am I.

 

[Bonesjones]

Why lol? if I didn't think you were gonna try to beat me up or something

I'd voice convo with you anytime, for the record. I've often asked revisionists but nobody has taken me up on this.

Why do you faggots always try to drag conversations where you either can control it or no one will see it? It's completely transparent in your attempts at hiding your failures.

Almost no "revisionists" can speak German.

No one needs to speak any language but physics, which you can't do. You are not only scientifically illiterate, you are also normally illiterate.

I quote Himmler, from Porter's "revisionist approved" translation (bolding mine):

Here, Himmler clearly evinces a genocidal attitude towards Slavic populations.

Indifference is equal to genocide guys. When do you trans out?

Here Himmler expresses indifference to working ten thousand white female civilians to death. My god were the Nazis anti-white, worst practitioners of white genocide (or more specifically Slavic genocide) in history.

Himmler also here alludes to the Nazi vision of Eastern Europe after a German victory in the war, one in which Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, etc were reduced to slaves for Germany.

The Nazi vision of Europe was to control Poland for the Germans so they could be completely self sufficient. None of this is contradicted. Pretending like he's a monster for choosing native Germans over some other "white" race is just a sad attempt at inserting white nationalism into history as a method of division. It's pretty clear you picked it up from somewhere else because it's not thought out nor aptly applied.

Here, Himmler reassures his listener that the SS will not be gratuitously cruel to Slavs, provided it is not necessary, but will behave 'decently'.

You can't fight violence with violence guys, just bend over and lose the war.

Here, Himmler expresses contempt for the weak souls who say it is inhumane to work Slavic children and women to death for Germany. These frivolous humanitarians, Himmler scoffs, are 'murderers of their own blood.'

Guys he chooses the German people over anyone else, why would you do such a thing? Doesn't he know he should support jews before anyone else?

Sounds like a cop-out to me. It's pretty obvious chugger is not the type of individual who would want to harm you for the "crime" of holding crackpot views on history. Nor am I.

You've had plenty of time to develop a central thesis with backing support and all you both can do is quote holocaust controversy and nitpick quotes from elsewhere. I hope you are paid well for your meddling.

 

[mrolonzo]

Sounds like a cop-out to me. It's pretty obvious chugger is not the type of individual who would want to harm you for the "crime" of holding crackpot views on history. Nor am I.

You fail to address the very real risk of my identity being discovered and the threat that poses. This failure suggests you have no regard for our plight. You may not harm us physically but it's quite easily possible for my identity to be discovered. Holocaust denial, as you would put it, is the most risky non incitement free expression activity one can do.

In my country, no such basic free speech protection is afforded to the public in matters of history.
Here is the lawyer Doug Christie speaking more about this some forty years ago;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ExOuYW03tvc