Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[870EVO]

Let us all pray for Putin

 

[Burgerasssand]

Cringe, cringe never changes
View attachment 4619132

Lol kill me

Oh no, bros... Putin has seized funds from BlackRock and JP Morgan. No wonder all the Ukrocucks are seething.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/growing-cash-pile-moscow-foreign-050000072.html

The Growing Cash Pile in Moscow That Investors Can’t Touch

archived 24 Feb 2023 16:37:19 UTC

archive.ph

from https://t.me/azmilitary11/39061

based beyond all measure

 

[Butterschmalz]

Some random German news on the self inflicted "Energy-Crisis". Because nobody will freeze to death this winter, they will have to pay x2, x3 or x4 for heating. All of this for a country that nobody cares about.

BASF one of the more energy intensive production companies (fertilizer, ammonia) is gonna let 2600 people go due to the lack of cheap Russian gas.

Uniper a German gas supplier which was also one of the financiers of NS2 was nationalized, because in order to fight the commies you need to become a commie. Losses in 2022: 40 bln Euro.

Costs of the war in Ukraine for Germany:
in 2022 - 125 billion Euro
in 2023 estimated - 175 billion

Stories about bankrupt bakeries, butcher shops and other small companies just keep on going forever...

 

[RSU 1741]

Alright seriously, I know I've asked basic bitch questions about Wagner already, but what is it about them that makes them so much more effective than the normal Russian forces?

As much as the Wagnerites prove to be more efficient than the regulars, the reply is common to most "warlord"-style formations during trying times: they're more flexible, they have more motivated officers and troops, they're easier to employ and "spend", their command and logistics function more on personal charisma and connections than standard bureaucracy.... Wagner isn't particularly special in this regard, history is littered with similar formations (from the Tiger Forces of Syrian heritage to some of the SS formations or the X MAS of WW2 fame).

The bad thing is, they're a symptom of .... problems. When your most efficient troops are those that aren't managed directly by the State this means the State has failed to properly train, equip and tard wrangle the Army. This means personal politics become even more important than battlefield performance, and often cause infighting. Recruit drain and resource drain as more successful warlord groups get prioritized above regulars and recruits flock to them. Warlord armies are sometimes efficient and I do not honestly believe that history repeats itself, but they're often the sign of something not working as it should.

 

[Kane Lives]

As much as the Wagnerites prove to be more efficient than the regulars, the reply is common to most "warlord"-style formations during trying times: they're more flexible, they have more motivated officers and troops, they're easier to employ and "spend", their command and logistics function more on personal charisma and connections than standard bureaucracy.... Wagner isn't particularly special in this regard, history is littered with similar formations (from the Tiger Forces of Syrian heritage to some of the SS formations or the X MAS of WW2 fame).

The bad thing is, they're a symptom of .... problems. When your most efficient troops are those that aren't managed directly by the State this means the State has failed to properly train, equip and tard wrangle the Army. This means personal politics become even more important than battlefield performance, and often cause infighting. Recruit drain and resource drain as more successful warlord groups get prioritized above regulars and recruits flock to them. Warlord armies are sometimes efficient and I do not honestly believe that history repeats itself, but they're often the sign of something not working as it should.

Well, you're also talking about post-Soviet Russia.
The fact that they're having problems with equipping and motivating their army isn't exactly surprising either. (Although I do genuinely believe a lot of the corrupt hacks were outed during the actual fighting, and the Russian MOD were probably learning on the fly on what works and what does not.)

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

Its probably a combination of things. I think the three biggest (as a poorly informed westerner) is doctrine, experience and will.

And by those I mean, Wagner is a mercenary group first and foremost. They have access to a wider selection of possible recruits, with western training or chinese or whoever really. Than the regular russian army. They probably have a more open mindset on tactics and strategies. They are more flexible in essence.

Second is given that Wagner was created as a front for the russian government. They have more actual combat experience from places like Syria or Ukraine prior to the special military operation. Then the average Russian regular, be he enlisted or commissioned. They know the land, and the enemy to a better extent than regular army types.

Third and probably the most important is will. War is as much a matter of will as ability. The wagnerite fights because he wants to fight, either for money or freedom or for the simple "joy" of it. I don't think the average russian is as committed to winning as the average wagnerite.

I think an apt comparison is that the United states has both a regular army and a marine corps. With the marines being considered better soldiers than their army counterparts simply do to the better training and mindset. Its Its harder to be a marine than regular army infantry. Of course this higher quality is also reflected in numbers. The army is much larger than the marines corps.

Edit: I would also add that the quality of the enemy plays a role into this. Bakhumt is a meat grinder of a battle. The Ukrainians are probably not sending their best there to die in a matter of weeks, when it took months or years to train them.

The comparison you've made seems surprisingly apt the more I think of it. The Marine Corps and Wagner are both still very different forces but they do actually seem to fill the same role largely and the fact that the relationship they both have with their countries core army is rather intriguing.
The main strengths of both the US Army and the Russian army is largely in their ability to grind down their enemies over time and their status as logistics machines while the Marines and Wagner are largely dedicated shock troops with a different chain of command. The convergent evolution you speak of has interesting implications on warfare.

 

[Socrates]

This means personal politics become even more important than battlefield performance, and often cause infighting. Recruit drain and resource drain as more successful warlord groups get prioritized above regulars and recruits flock to them.

This is the bit that was really gnawing at me, and what I was trying to get at with the statement about (possibly falsified for propaganda purposes) reports of Putin and the Russian MoD growing worried about Wagner's successes. What happens when the war is over and suddenly Wagner's leadership carries much more clout and influence than ever before? Do you think that the Russian government would try to "Night of the Long Knives" them if they felt threatened by that influence? The end of this war might bring to light a whole different kind of battle, an internal one. So many unknowns... war is a strange thing.

 

[870EVO]

https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1629069299905093635

 

[MrJokerRager]

Well I managed to find the hohol telegram channel for their mod.

Міністерство оборони України

🤚 Міністр оборони України Олексій Резніков: 💬 Я вдячний усім українським захисникам. На передовій. На наших кордонах і в наших гарнізонах. На морі і в повітрі. На наших військових базах і стратегічних постах. У навчальних центрах України та за кордоном. В тилу ворога. У госпіталях. У...

t.me

And found these pictures from the Russian MOD.












And some info graphs.






And another Amerimutt died in the bloodlands.

Marshfield couple learned this week their 28-year-old son died fighting in Ukraine

 

[Romeo]

This is the bit that was really gnawing at me, and what I was trying to get at with the statement about (possibly falsified for propaganda purposes) reports of Putin and the Russian MoD growing worried about Wagner's successes. What happens when the war is over and suddenly Wagner's leadership carries much more clout and influence than ever before? Do you think that the Russian government would try to "Night of the Long Knives" them if they felt threatened by that influence? The end of this war might bring to light a whole different kind of battle, an internal one. So many unknowns... war is a strange thing.

It’s only the MoD that’s worried. Prigozhin, who owns Wagner, is one of Putin’s allies. If Wagner running out of ammo is not a ruse as some thought, them announcing that they received ammo is probably due to Putin pressuring the MoD to assist Wagner.

 

[Corpun]

And another Amerimutt died in the bloodlands.

Marshfield couple learned this week their 28-year-old son died fighting in Ukraine

I love how all these Amerimutt volunteers are some of the ugliest and most out of shape people.

 

[The Foxtrot]

I love how all these Amerimutt volunteers are some of the ugliest and most out of shape people.

Was he former military or just another dipshit who signed on because Reddit said so?

 

[PrimeRadiant]

Alright seriously, I know I've asked basic bitch questions about Wagner already, but what is it about them that makes them so much more effective than the normal Russian forces? Is it the fact that they're mostly a volunteer force? Do they somehow have access to better equipment and training than the Army? I have also heard rumors that they're effectiveness has given even Putin pause in worries over their growing influence, although I assume that bit is mostly western agitprop. It feels like every time I hear about a normal Russian offensive it either goes nowhere or ends in a minor setback, meanwhile Wagner has seemingly just been bulldozing town by town. It's very strange.

The Russian military is set up for Big Arrow War. That is, mass mechanised maneuver wars of the sort that dominated the first few weeks of the current operation. This means the emphasis is on the operational level..battalions and higher. They are organised, equipped, and trained for this kind of fighting. The Russian military has a rigid and centralised command style with not alot of flexibility. This can limit them in the kind of urban combat going on in bakhmut which requires companies and platoons able to use their initiative and operate independently.

Once the war of movement is restored, the Russians will be able to use thier own army to its full effect, while wagner will be relegated to more secondary role.

To use an animal metaphor, the Russian army is a big game predator and has problems with smaller prey. Wagner is a small game predator.

 

[The Foxtrot]

To use an animal metaphor, the Russian army is a big game predator and has problems with smaller prey. Wagner is a small game predator.

Russian Army is a Bear, Wagner's a Fox, put simply?

 

[PrimeRadiant]

Russian Army is a Bear, Wagner's a Fox, put simply?

More like the lion and a cheetah. A lion is gonna starve if it has to hunt rabbits. But the cheetah isnt going to take down a giraffe.

 

[870EVO]

https://twitter.com/mdfzeh/status/1629156455008899077

https://twitter.com/NinaByzantina/status/1629151183326810112

 

[MrJokerRager]

Was he former military or just another dipshit who signed on because Reddit said so?

It was claimed he was a former vet who did a tour of Afghanistan in 2014.

 

[Socrates]

It was claimed he was a former vet who did a tour of Afghanistan in 2014.

Another retard who swallowed the propaganda and probably thought it was gonna be just like sitting in the Humvee pointing a rangefinder at hadjis for their totally uncontested air support to sweep up. It's hard to feel sorry for somebody who actively chose to get involved in a conflict they had nothing to do with and paid the price for it.

 

[Got Milk!]

One thing I haven't seen specifically mentioned regarding Wagner is their use of prisoner mercenaries. Literally the most expendable people on the planet. Need 100 guys to charge a trench? Fuck it, throw some prisoners at it. You only get to keep them for 6 months, might as well use them. And while I agree with everyone else's points about different strategy and tactics and stuff, but having that specific capability (which the Russian military doesn't really have/can't afford politically) can be a big difference in an offensive.

 

[870EVO]

https://twitter.com/BowesChay/status/1629202013673201675

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1628869811173474306

https://twitter.com/RealPepeEscobar/status/1629028440086044674