Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[AgendaPoster]

The result of all this, of course, is that Ukraine will never get the Donbass or Crimea back. Ironically the US itself created the very legal precedent for this by recognizing the illegal "Republic of Kosovo".

Then why the fuck should I support Serbia to get Kosovo back?
You fucking vatnik infiltrators are lunatics.
You don't care that Serbia was hacked to pieces and bombed. You just want to have the same chimp the fuck out license the Amerifats have.
Absolutely despicable state of mind.
Both Ukraine and Serbia should take back the land that is defined by internationally recognized borders. Kosovo is not a legitimate entity and neither are Donbas and Crimea.
Go to the vatnik topic already, shoo

 

[Disheveled-Human]

If you do not have nukes or protection by a country with them you do not have boarders. This is not that fucking complicated.

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

Tell me then, why would the pre-dominantly ethnic Russian population in Crimea and Donbass not have "genuince independence aspirations", particularly after their own legitimate government was toppled in an illegal coup by US-backed literal nazis and replaced with an ultra-nationalist government that subsequently declared war on them and their culture, their language and their very existence.

Can you now go to cope thread?

If you don't see a difference between ANNEXING erritory and SECCEDING a territory it will be a great place for you.

==========

Rumours about begining of military evacuation from Bakhmut:

- nearly sure that local dam was busted to help evacuation,
- nearly sure evacuatio from east Bakhmut,
- very unsure about evacuation from west Bakhmut to western lines. Around 3-7 km AFAIK.

 

[DumbDude43]

lmao and you know that exactly how?

i know that because crimea 'independence' was achieved by 'little green men' aka literal russian soldiers walking in and taking over, and the first and only thing this 'independent' crimea ever did was "apply" to "join" russia lmao
i know that because donbas 'independence' forces from the very beginning (2014) had literal russian glowies involved, such as former fsb man girkin/strelkov

 

[Ghostse]

Here's a montage of some Russian armor getting destroyed by minefields near Vuhledar, I especially like the first one because it has a tank that escorting some IFVs get disabled by a mine, and instead of the IFVs covering the bailing tank crew and maybe allowing them to embark, both just turn tail and ditch their asses.
View attachment 4630972

While its hilarious to watch the IFVs abandon the tankers remember that A) BMPs field of view is absolute shit, they probably couldn't see them. B) its probably doctrine to book it from any explosions. Three tankers, even moving in the open, is a waste of ammo.

Look at those fields.

WTF, not even World War 2 had that level of saturation frontline artillery bombardment. People keep calling this World War 1 with Drones, and I am starting to believe it.

I'm working on a rambling effort post to expand on a thought I've been having.

Namely even before WWI they would use observation (hot air) balloons to look at the battlefield. WWI planes were initially just used for scouting and recon, A lot of this drone "dropping grenades on the trenches" are what pilots started to do. And we've gone from 1916 'dropping darts and grenades from an airfield a few miles from the front' to 2016 "Stealth fighters based half the planet away dropping pre-programed smart bombs". Like what crazy shit will we in 2116?

 

[Fait Accompli]

@Generation
From a bit of an iffy source but I've heard others say similar things. Seems the ukies pushed the Russians out of the area, replenished the anti-tank minefields, and fell back a bit, and are keeping a constant eye on it with artillery to prevent infantry from removing the AT mines.
EDIT: Also here's a version with fitting music.
View attachment 4631107

Way too tired to analyze things, but is the source you're quoting basically saying that this is a recent second wave?
Like, a few weeks ago Russians ran headfist into minefields and artillery, pulled back. Then Ukrainans replenished minefields, now a few days ago Russia tried again and ran headfist into minefields again?

If true, this is a new low mark

 

[mindlessobserver]

Why don't they advance with an Armored Minesweeper, backed by dismounted infantry and Tanks in the rear....oh right. This is the RUSSIAN Army. Mine sweepers aren't COOL. They don't have big guns to make Russian Penis hard. What few they had in inventory have probably been destroyed. So they put Mobiks into shitty T62 and tell them to drive foreword until they set off the mines. Minefield cleared comrades!

 

[Disheveled-Human]

I hope when WW3 kicks off I can get this job dealing with turncoats.

 

[Trig.Point]

Why don't they advance with an Armored Minesweeper, backed by dismounted infantry and Tanks in the rear....oh right. This is the RUSSIAN Army. Mine sweepers aren't COOL. They don't have big guns to make Russian Penis hard. What few they had in inventory have probably been destroyed. So they put Mobiks into shitty T62 and tell them to drive foreword until they set off the mines. Minefield cleared comrades!

Clearing a route through a minefield even during a training exercise is a major organisational task.

To start off in most western militaries at least, Engineers are usually a Brigade or Divisional asset. Also eg an armored unit isn't just going to be given a bunch of engineers to order around, the engineers comes with their own hierarchy and will tell the unit they're supporting how it's going to work. The engineers will have an input into what route (the breeching systems aren't as effective on certain ground) is going to be chosen, they'll need to have force protection in place, they'll insist that once a route is cleared, there's overwatch over it to make sure someone doesn't sneak in to replace the mines. Also the Ukrainians are probably covering their minefields with artillery and OP posts.



Also those mine rollers or mine plows you see on vehicles, they're there just 'in case' a vehicle hits a mine the breeching system missed, they're not meant to allow the vehicle to drive into a mine field to clear a route. If they hit a decent size mine it's probably still going to do serious damage to the vehicle.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Clearing a route through a minefield even during a training exercise is a major organisational task.

To start off in most western militaries at least, Engineers are usually a Brigade or Divisional asset. Also eg an armored unit isn't just going to be given a bunch of engineers to order around, the engineers comes with their own hierarchy and will tell the unit they're supporting how it's going to work. The engineers will have an input into what route (the breeching systems aren't as effective on certain ground) is going to be chosen, they'll need to have force protection in place, they'll insist that once a route is cleared, there's overwatch over it to make sure someone doesn't sneak in to replace the mines.

Also those mine rollers or mine plows you see on vehicles, they're there just 'in case' a vehicle hits a mine the breeching system missed, they're not meant to allow the vehicle to drive into a mine field to clear a route. If they hit a decent size mine it's probably still going to do serious damage to the vehicle.

This is combined arms doctrine and as we all know the Russian Army cannot coordinate its artillery and tanks to work together, let alone add an engineering unit to the mix.

Let's not forget the great "Pontooning" during the Battle of Severedonetsk.

 

[Ghostse]

This is combined arms doctrine and as we all know the Russian Army cannot coordinate its artillery and tanks to work together, let alone add an engineering unit to the mix.

Let's not forget the great "Pontooning" during the Battle of Severedonetsk.

To expand on that a little more:
The T-62 is a "mechanized infantry" tank to complement the T-64. The idea was it was cheaper/faster/easier to construct than a MBT, and your mechanized infantry companies would have T-62's as part of the make up. While T-62s could not go one-on-one with MBTs, they could take out IFVs, embedded infantry and suppress enemy armor.

The NATO solution is a combined arms battalion where an armored division is attached to the mechanized division and both work together to accomplish the objectives. That is, two peer commanders reporting a operation commander.

Russian logistics do allow for this fine grain control, because Russian logistics supply is "push" instead of "pull".

While a NATO formation would have an engineering battalion who, as @Trig.Point say, would have their commander at planning meetings providing input, in Russia its an engineer company if they have engineers. So you roll out your moblik crewed T-62 as mine sweeper.

 

[Techpriest Mk II]

To expand on that a little more:
The T-62 is a "mechanized infantry" tank to complement the T-64. The idea was it was cheaper/faster/easier to construct than a MBT, and your mechanized infantry companies would have T-62's as part of the make up. While T-62s could not go one-on-one with MBTs, they could take out IFVs, embedded infantry and suppress enemy armor.

The NATO solution is a combined arms battalion where an armored division is attached to the mechanized division and both work together to accomplish the objectives. That is, two peer commanders reporting a operation commander.

Russian logistics do allow for this fine grain control, because Russian logistics supply is "push" instead of "pull".

While a NATO formation would have an engineering battalion who, as @Trig.Point say, would have their commander at planning meetings providing input, in Russia its an engineer company if they have engineers. So you roll out your moblik crewed T-62 as mine sweeper.

No, the T-62 was meant to be a better protected successor to the T-54/55 utilizing a better gun (at the time) and meant to be something akin to the M60 was to the M48. Instead, the 115mm gun was a bit of a flop and the radical design of the T-64 once a few teething troubles were sorted out proved to be superior, so the T-62 ended up in a weird position since it never got massive export success compared to the 54/55, the 100mm gun proved to be better suited for high pressure ammunition which lead to the main selling point for it meant very little, yet was still produced in large numbers, and meant for front line formations that wouldn't be getting the T-64. Likewise, the T-72 program was an attempt to create a version of the T-64 that didn't cost as much to make - they succeeded, but this created a tank with arguably less upgrade potential than the T-64 and waaay worse optics and armor baseline. The T-62 is a great example of an iterative design compared to a revolutionary one.

 

[Fanatical Pragmatist]

To expand on that a little more:
The T-62 is a "mechanized infantry" tank to complement the T-64. The idea was it was cheaper/faster/easier to construct than a MBT, and your mechanized infantry companies would have T-62's as part of the make up. While T-62s could not go one-on-one with MBTs, they could take out IFVs, embedded infantry and suppress enemy armor.

The NATO solution is a combined arms battalion where an armored division is attached to the mechanized division and both work together to accomplish the objectives. That is, two peer commanders reporting a operation commander.

Russian logistics do allow for this fine grain control, because Russian logistics supply is "push" instead of "pull".

While a NATO formation would have an engineering battalion who, as @Trig.Point say, would have their commander at planning meetings providing input, in Russia its an engineer company if they have engineers. So you roll out your moblik crewed T-62 as mine sweeper.

Didn't the T-62 come before the T-64 though?

Like the T-64 is more comparable to the T-72 in that regard, IIRC

 

[Ghostse]

No, the T-62 was meant to be a better protected successor to the T-54/55 utilizing a better gun (at the time) and meant to be something akin to the M60 was to the M48. Instead, the 115mm gun was a bit of a flop and the radical design of the T-64 once a few teething troubles were sorted out proved to be superior, so the T-62 ended up in a weird position since it never got massive export success compared to the 54/55, the 100mm gun proved to be better suited for high pressure ammunition which lead to the main selling point for it meant very little, yet was still produced in large numbers, and meant for front line formations that wouldn't be getting the T-64. Likewise, the T-72 program was an attempt to create a version of the T-64 that didn't cost as much to make - they succeeded, but this created a tank with arguably less upgrade potential than the T-64 and waaay worse optics and armor baseline. The T-62 is a great example of an iterative design compared to a revolutionary one.

Sort of; Heavier ARMED not so much armored. the The T-55 was having trouble with taking larger guns, the sort that were needed to make kills against the planned NATO tanks. The T-62 lacked sights, slow turret speed, autoloader was a piece of shit, transmission was garbage per soviet doctrine, and there are a bunch of things that made crews hate it, and the armor wasn't even enough to stop a 'super-sherman'. But if you were a mechanized rifle company getting counter pushed, a T-62 it was going to do better against NATO armor than a BMT/BMP would. The closest role would be a tank destroyer, but that's not accurate because it lacked the speed but did have protection against small arms and small caliber guns.

The T-72 was to replace the T-62 not the T-64. The T-64's replacement was to be the T-80. The T-72 built on the T-62's design goals which was a "good enough" armored vehicle that could be mass produced in the even of war vs. the expensive, high-skill, and time-consuming T-64 production. That low production cost, the fact you could make two T-72 for the cost of a T-64, given USSR's collapsing economy made planning shift it + upgrades instead of more T-64s.

Didn't the T-62 come before the T-64 though?

Like the T-64 is more comparable to the T-72 in that regard, IIRC

The T-64 was in design since 1951; it didn't "take over" for anything, but it was product and culmination of the line of thought that would give rise to the "Main Battle Tank" - that is a tank that combined the speed of a Tank Destroyer with the protection of a medium or heavy tank. The T-62 and T-64s were complementary; they would have used T-55s as the infantry tank but the T-55 could take big enough guns to be a threat to NATO armor.

T-72 was originally designed as the successor to the T-62, but a little less shit in the "tank" department, and a stock T-72 is still a piece of shit. The T-80 was supposed to succeed the T-64 as the MBT of choice. Soviet realities (lol economy shitting itself) meant they had to lean heavily on the T-72 and began an upgrade program to make it viable as an MBT; not that hard to do since it carried a powerful enough gun. Its not until the version where they actually armored the magazine that it was actually front-line worthy armor.

 

[Snekposter]

No, the T-62 was meant to be a better protected successor to the T-54/55 utilizing a better gun (at the time) and meant to be something akin to the M60 was to the M48. Instead, the 115mm gun was a bit of a flop and the radical design of the T-64 once a few teething troubles were sorted out proved to be superior, so the T-62 ended up in a weird position since it never got massive export success compared to the 54/55, the 100mm gun proved to be better suited for high pressure ammunition which lead to the main selling point for it meant very little, yet was still produced in large numbers, and meant for front line formations that wouldn't be getting the T-64. Likewise, the T-72 program was an attempt to create a version of the T-64 that didn't cost as much to make - they succeeded, but this created a tank with arguably less upgrade potential than the T-64 and waaay worse optics and armor baseline. The T-62 is a great example of an iterative design compared to a revolutionary one.

This. The T-62 only wound up as a mechanized infantry tank because the T-64 could barely be produced in quantities sufficient for the armored formations due to its complexity.

As to the T-72 itself, it was proposed as a cheaper alternative to the T-64, rejected for political reasons, and then slowly iterated on in the prototype phase for about a decade so when the political situation changed there was a brand-new modern MBT fully formed all ready to be built.

 

[FunPosting101]

@Generation
From a bit of an iffy source but I've heard others say similar things. Seems the ukies pushed the Russians out of the area, replenished the anti-tank minefields, and fell back a bit, and are keeping a constant eye on it with artillery to prevent infantry from removing the AT mines.
EDIT: Also here's a version with fitting music.
View attachment 4631107

Ahhh Yakity Sax, I feel so nostalgic.

 

[Clownish]

Ihor Kolomoyskyi is a Jewish Oligarch and former governor of Ukraine that owned the largest bank, the largest gasoline company and owned a TV News channel. When Russia invaded in 2014 he was terrified that his properties were going to be seized, so he started funding anyone that was fighting the Russians. This included most of the volunteer groups, Azov, Adair and Dnipro-1. His fears came true and Russia nationalized his properties in Crimea.

When Petro Poroshenko because President of Ukraine he dismissed Ihor as governor of Dnipropetrovsk and nationalized his bank called PrivatBank.

Ihor's TV Channel 1+1 aired Volodymyr Zelensky's TV show Servant of the People, and when Zelensky ran for President Ihor funded his campaign. Ihor's TV Channel would air Pro-Zelensky and Anti-Poroshenko coverage.

Since Zelensky has been President he has striped Ihor of Ukrainian citizenship since duel citizenship is prohibited in Ukrainian law and Ihor has an Israeli passport. Zelensky has also nationalized many of Ihors assets that were of strategic importance including his ownership of Ukraine's largest gasoline company.

Now Zelensky has sent the SBU after him for corruption. The football club Ihor owned dissolved, and it won't be long before his TV Channel is nationalized.

This is the Chabad Jew Oligarch that Pro-Russian people always clown on about. In reality Ihor now spends his time hiding in the Menorah Centre he funded while Zelensky sends his Totenkopf wearing SBU to kick his door down when they want to take more of his stolen wealth.

 

[MG-34]

View attachment 4633120

Ihor Kolomoyskyi is a Jewish Oligarch and former governor of Ukraine that owned the largest bank, the largest gasoline company and owned a TV News channel. When Russia invaded in 2014 he was terrified that his properties were going to be seized, so he started funding anyone that was fighting the Russians. This included most of the volunteer groups, Azov, Adair and Dnipro-1. His fears came true and Russia nationalized his properties in Crimea.

When Petro Poroshenko because President of Ukraine he dismissed Ihor as governor of Dnipropetrovsk and nationalized his bank called PrivatBank.

Ihor's TV Channel 1+1 aired Volodymyr Zelensky's TV show Servant of the People, and when Zelensky ran for President Ihor funded his campaign. Ihor's TV Channel would air Pro-Zelensky and Anti-Poroshenko coverage.

Since Zelensky has been President he has striped Ihor of Ukrainian citizenship since duel citizenship is prohibited in Ukrainian law and Ihor has an Israeli passport. Zelensky has also nationalized many of Ihors assets that were of strategic importance including his ownership of Ukraine's largest gasoline company.

Now Zelensky has sent the SBU after him for corruption. The football club Ihor owned dissolved, and it won't be long before his TV Channel is nationalized.

This is the Chabad Jew Oligarch that Pro-Russian people always clown on about. In reality Ihor now spends his time hiding in the Menorah Centre he funded while Zelensky sends his Totenkopf wearing SBU to kick his door down when they want to take more of his stolen wealth.

I can hear the trad Pro-white /pol/bros flipping their scripts to mourn the onset of the second shoah. I do hope they seize every shekel that faggot has and use it to fund humanitarian efforts. I would say buy some more armaments but using his bank account to help the goy is more karmatic.

 

[GatorAids]

It has been rather vindicating seeing literally each and every self declared neo nazi, white nationalist, and general far right LARPer of any prominence show themselves to be utterly and completely insincere in their supposed ideals and lacking in even the slightest genuine belief, as shown by their instant and loudly shrieked throwing of support behind a literal anti-nazi, anti-bigotry crusade waged by a rabble of central asians, kebabs, and communist wannabes and led by a former KGB officer who justified the invasion from the getgo because of how much he loves the jews and other ethnicities and hates the evil and problematic raysists in Ukraine.

Im not even talking online nobodies, im talking the so called "Big names" in the fake nazi sphere from david duke to andrew anglin. All of whom have to a greater or lesser degree thrown their support behind geopolitical antifa in order to "own da libz and da neo-cawnz" which has only ever meant "get attention and asspats and occasional gibdats from speds too dysfunctional, autistic, and sketchy to be allowed into the woke retard mob" which is why all these specimens will gleefully and casually throw out all the shit they spent years pretending to believe the moment it becomes convenient for their grift or more comfortable for them to remain in good standing among their fellow mouthbreathers.

Same shit can incidentally also be said about self declared stalinists, maoists, and general far left LARPers who are once again fawning over a far right oligarchal near-theocracy to "own da libz and da neo-cawnz" much like their counterparts on the other end of the horseshoe

Shhhh don't point out the hypocrisy and complete ideological inconsistancy. Guatemalans in New York need to learn English, fucking parasites! Oh my god Ukraine is making it so people have to fill out government documents in Ukrainian? Genocide! Don't think, just do the opposite of whatever the twitter trannies are doing.

Edit: I was always of the opinion that Zelensky was another corrupt eastern yuro leader, a mildly respectable one for not bugging out with gold ingots upon invasion though. With him raiding rich jews with totenkopf branded soldiers I'm ready to admit Putin was right, Hitler has returned as a Jewkrainian, and just like before I support this Hitler the same as before in his Slavmitic genocide of the Russian untermensch.

 

[CuzinEd]

I mean it is pretty obvious to me that China and Russia capitalize on fringe movements in the west who are typically anti-government. When Russia gives a rousing speech and makes statements like Pedophilia is normalized in the west it allows people on the fringes to relate with what they are saying and therefore blindly support their cause based on a few wedge issues. I am not gonna sit there and say there is not movements like this that exist in a free country but to trade away the gay, trans or any other abhorrent movements right to speak to me is not worth the cost of living under a regime the likes of Russia or China. It is not even wedge issues that are fully supported by the general populations in free countries it is just the right to discuss, change and or modify them.

You aren't the only one. Like someone in this thread said and I have said many times before and on other forums. I would rather just deal with the problems over here and not be under the rule of the Russians or commie chinks. Russia is a corrupt shithole. They have levels of corruption that skip right over South America and go right to Africa levels of corruption. It's always been that way it seems. Maybe less so under the Czars and Imperial Russia. But Russia isn't really a great place to live. China isn't either.

It's mostly just dumb fucks that think that way. Typically, they are wignat faggots. Like the mongoloids you would see coming off 4chan and especially the Pol board. The truth is neither Russia or China has any interest in saving the West or white people. These retards think the Russians or commie chinks will save them. This just isn't the case. There are some Boomers and normies that do the whole "muh based Putin" routine but that stopped being funny and started being cringey years ago.

Here's a montage of some Russian armor getting destroyed by minefields near Vuhledar, I especially like the first one because it has a tank that escorting some IFVs get disabled by a mine, and instead of the IFVs covering the bailing tank crew and maybe allowing them to embark, both just turn tail and ditch their asses.
View attachment 4630972

Holy fuck that's a total shit show. I like how the BMP's just whip around and take off in the other direction.

View attachment 4631088
Imao.

I have Atomic Heart. I don't feel bad for playing it. Sucks that the developers gave into the outrage mobs on Twitter and censored their game though.