Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Elämällä on väliä]

no

Rail companies have know-how how and equipment to fix damaged rail which isn't unusual at peacetime. Also - if you can afford to take part of the path on small speed you can be cheap and build temporaly track or even a bypass. At least on WW2 they was building some bypasses on rail tracks.

Roads are something different - yes, you can use sand to quickfix a hole, but if the bomb/rocket damaged bottom lawyers of road you are probably mostly wasted. Other thing is how many goods you can take with a train and with truck convoy. Sending few trains with rail is easier than sending hundreds of truck with road.

In real world no-one is smashing roads or track just to low effectivness of this. Only points which cannot be repaired in quick time are bridges and so one, but in normal terms it is like week or two to make repairs, not months. Better option is to make shit with logistic base or vehicles than roads.

In serious terms I have no doubt a ton of Ukies did die, but I also have no doubt an equal or more Russians died as well.

 

[Fait Accompli]

I'm getting this info third-source from a podcast (Radio War Nerd for those interested; highly recommended), but at least when it comes to the issues of troop conditions at the front, you've got it all upside down. Russian forces are still x3 times the size of Ukraine's in terms of raw manpower. The Ruskies get rotated out regularly, it's the Ukrainian units who are stuck holding the same bit of frontage for months at a time.

As for the question of population and emigration, Ukraine is at a much worse position than Russia. Ukraine has lost some 30% of its population even before the war ramped up in 2022, and now that millions more fled the place it's become an empty country. Easily less than half of its 1991 population.

I mean, its really hard to know. But at the start, most of Russian offensive units were moved into Ukraine, its the same now. Just because the Russian army is much bigger doesnt mean its the army and manpower available for the front in Ukraine, they have already sent far away units to the front. But they need alot of personel to man its other units, its garrisons, its remanining frontline units in other parts of the country, i doubt they are rotating these into the meatgrinder in Ukraine now that they've mobilized 300k for Ukraine amd prob more than 100k in prisoners, Kadyrovites, DPR/LNR conscripts, mercenaries etc.

If Russia is rotating units not meant for Ukraine at all into Ukraine and either depleting these original units or rotating used up front units to these other positions, then yes sure i'd say they have as good rotation as Ukraine, but keep in mind. Ukraine is fighting on home turf, with land connection to all EU countries, with much better logistics. This makes me think that Ukrainian units are better fed and rotated more often than their counterparts. Ukraine has issued general mobilization, has much better logistics, access to the entire EU, has a much smaller area to defend ( per soldier ) and are able to focus entirely on the front lines while Russia has pretty much the entire opposite of this.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

Railways are easy to repair. Easier than roads.

I reckon repair crew makes for an easier target than even the static road itself

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

I reckon repair crew makes for an easier target than even the static road itself

Still waste of ammo in most cases. Easier is to make BOOM on a depot than hunt for few guys with few tools or to break rail for few houres or days (in best case).

Google about 'Nerobefehl' and how do it nearly nothing in terms of crippling rail transport.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

Still waste of ammo in most cases. Easier is to make BOOM on a depot than hunt for few guys with few tools or to break rail for few houres or days (in best case).

Google about 'Nerobefehl' and how do it nearly nothing in terms of crippling rail transport.

Hm, I really thought that a giant hole where a rail used to be would make repair problematic, guess not. Still, there are options - trains themselves or depots, like you said.

 

[Techpriest Mk II]

Hm, I really thought that a giant hole where a rail used to be would make repair problematic, guess not. Still, there are options - trains themselves or depots, like you said.

Yes, hitting engines themselves does more damage in the long run and it's what Ukrainian strikes on rail depots have been trying to do.

 

[Clownish]

Denis Nikitin told the Financial Times that his Ukraine-based Russian Volunteer Corps had proved they could breach some of Russia’s most heavily guarded border areas. Russian far-right fighter claims border stunt exposes Putin’s weakness.

Nikitin said that Ukrainian authorities had signed off on the operation. “Yes, of course, this action was agreed, otherwise it couldn’t have happened,” he said.

“How do you imagine that I passed through the dark of night there? There are mined bridges, there are cameras, heat-seeking drones, there are hidden open observation points,” he added. “If I did not co-ordinate it with anyone [in Ukraine’s military] . . . I think we would simply be destroyed,” he said.

Twitter link
The Financial Times article is behind a paywall.

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

Hm, I really thought that a giant hole where a rail used to be would make repair problematic, guess not.

I you need train in that specific place it is a pain in ass, of course.

But lets look on map of tracks aroun Bihar (I;m lazy and cannot find a detailed map for tracks, not active service for anything in Europe in this moment):



Try to point one hole in this network outside crossroads to isolate potential frontline.

Most of tracks are at least doubled (so you must have a BOOM so big that you can smash both tracks) or even they have four track side by side (in peacetime used to separate cargo and passanger services, or short and long distance trains). Every few cities or even in every one you will have repair crews with tools and materials to make repairs fast and effective.

And in Europe you will have even more tracks than in Bihar. Not neccesary rail tracks - trams and subways use similar technology, so in case of war they can be used as dense and important bypasses. And also old, unused rails. In the begining of war Poles and Ukrainians make quick and effective renowation of some rails between countries to make more options just for case.

Also in WW2 it wasn't unusual to repair or convert tracks just after capturing them. Sure, a BOOM on railroad isn't a nothingburger, but if it will be done just fo crippling enemies supply and the BOOM didn't take place on rather big bridge this isn something to stop transport for not more than few days.

It is always better to attak vehicles than roads. And also more effective to BOOM depots than vehicles. And most effective is to destroy enemies fuel resrves.

 

[Bunny Wigglesworth]

Remember when the has-been actor Sean Penn was against the Iraq war? Pepperidge Farm remembers and weird to see him flip-flopped about the Ukraine war from what I saw on that clip.

Jimmy Dore .... This Pepperidge Farm remembers all the times Griftin Jimmy has on adoring fan Pete Lavelle of Russia Today to inform everyone what’s rrrreally going on in Ukraine.

Sean Penn is fagotronic, but he’s being consistent here. A lot more consistent than Jimmy “find common interests with Das Nazi to reach your goals, unless you’re hohols fighting 2nd army” Dore. The second US invasion & occupation of Iraq and Russia’s invasions & occupation of Ukraine are both BS.

Sheesh, prepare for the wave of gloating vatniks to invade the thread like it's Ukraine.

Judging by the peppering in the last 3 or 4 pages of this thread, the vanguard has already arrived.

 

[LeChampion1992]

There have been abortive attempts at reaching just such a ceasefire multiple times. The negotiations are always sabotaged by the West.

I mean don't pretend like the Russians didn't try to sabatoge peace talks either.

Yeah, they're pulling out now, so the battle should be over in a couple more days or so. Congratulations Russia! You have taken a town of 50k people prewar population! It cost you 8 months of progress in the Donbas, ~70k casualties of which at least 20 to 30k are dead, god knows how much equipment lost, and you STILL failed to encircle any large Ukrainian formations or capture large amounts of equipment. Oh, and you still haven't hit the main defensive line yet. It's like Tarawa or Monte Cassino. Lots of blood for not really any gain



EDIT:

Better analogy, it'd be like if the Allies had taken 8 months to pass the Bernhardt Line.

Bakhmut fell, Ukraine is a joke, it's going to collapse, Russia stronk, Ukraine weak and insignificant!!!!

Another Victory like Bakhmut, and Russia will lose the war.

Silence you know Russia is stronk now surrender and maybe we will let a second rate superpower keep Poland in NATO still!!!

When you tell them there is only a single Brigade in Bakhmut proper they lose their minds.

Holhols are stupid pigs they don't understand tactics!!!! Besides Russians are strong and winning HOLHOL scum are dumb!!!!

If Ukrainian forces are indeed leaving Bakhmut, I would imagine they have a whole lot of artillery pointed at it just salivating in anticipation of Russians moving in, and god knows what else.
They seem to be under the impression that Ukraine would just allow Russians to use it freely? Heh, okay.

Okay I'll break character for this. I mean if Russia does stand a chance at getting annihilated by Ukraines forces especially if they try to rush in on Bakhmut.

Almost like they're similar situations and retards can't comprehend ideological consistancy. Can't believe I'm defending this faggot. The US invading Iraq because they don't like the government of Iraq and using false pretenses to justify occupying Iraq was bad. Russia invading Ukraine using false pretenses because they don't like their government is also bad. This isn't a hard concept to grasp unless you have the IQ of a baccilus.

Don't be too upset even very smart people fall for the npc trap. Many times people will stupidly take the worst of I am against current thing because they're so jaded by the fairness of current year trend. Jimmy dore is a old-school lefty but he doesn't quite understand that the enemy of my enemy doesn't automatically mean they're good people.

 

[Fait Accompli]

Denis Nikitin told the Financial Times that his Ukraine-based Russian Volunteer Corps had proved they could breach some of Russia’s most heavily guarded border areas. Russian far-right fighter claims border stunt exposes Putin’s weakness.

Nikitin said that Ukrainian authorities had signed off on the operation. “Yes, of course, this action was agreed, otherwise it couldn’t have happened,” he said.

“How do you imagine that I passed through the dark of night there? There are mined bridges, there are cameras, heat-seeking drones, there are hidden open observation points,” he added. “If I did not co-ordinate it with anyone [in Ukraine’s military] . . . I think we would simply be destroyed,” he said.

Twitter link
The Financial Times article is behind a paywall.

Are u talking about the recent border incursion by Ukrainian special forces? Its still so fresh that there isnt any proof on either side, but this screams false-flag

Why in the hell would Ukraine send 50 special units into Russia to murder civilians and occupy a town? Its strategically retarded. The only way i could see this being a genuine attack from Ukraine is that these units went rogue or something

If an incredibly risky attack like this ( PR-wise ) doesnt result in some sort of major strategic win, its most likely a false flag or a rogue unit, according to me
But what do i know, im just a retired 70-year old singer
Fait Accompli!

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Russia has a very large military train repair crew and engineering units dedicated to that. Not a huge shock. It's specialized work but they're more than capable of quickly doing it.

One benefit for Russia is Ukraine still uses the same gauge for its railways.

In hindsight they should have converted the network to standard gauge producing a break on the Russian border and more infrastructure integration with the EU, but I'm sure that will be a priority once the war is over.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

Why in the hell would Ukraine send 50 special units into Russia to murder civilians and occupy a town? Its strategically retarded.

Well, they did neither of those things, that's just Russian propaganda making shit up. Nor are they "Ukrainian special forces" by the sound of it, it's volunteer combatants hailing from Russia. They seem to have a long history so they're likely legit. Purpose of this stunt is up to debate, they say it's to expose Putin's weakness, or specifically weakness of borders in this case, which doesn't really benefit them - making enemy's weakness known to them is counterproductive, it's something for you to capitalize on. I'm no tactician, but that does indeed seem retarded.
If they came and left unnoticed, it would've made sense to me.

Jimmy Dore

.... This Pepperidge Farm remembers all the times Griftin Jimmy has on adoring fan Pete Lavelle of Russia Today to inform everyone what’s rrrreally going on in Ukraine.

Sean Penn is fagotronic, but he’s being consistent here. A lot more consistent than Jimmy “find common interests with Das Nazi to reach your goals, unless you’re hohols fighting 2nd army” Dore. The second US invasion & occupation of Iraq and Russia’s invasions & occupation of Ukraine are both BS.



Judging by the peppering in the last 3 or 4 pages of this thread, the vanguard has already arrived.

I still don't comprehend the zigger math of "If Iraq invasion = bad, then Ukraine invasion = good". If that's as deep as you're willing to go, then in principle it can only be one of those for both.
The logic seems to be that since America invaded a sovereign country, whatever the justification, Russia is justified in doing the same... whatever the justification. Except they're completely disregarding America's reasoning and taking Russia's as gospel, which demonstrates blatant intellectual dishonesty. If you're justifying Russia in this context, you are certainly not being objective or principled. Because if you're advocating for non-interventionism, you can't condone either.

Unless you're a smoothbrain in whose view the world only has few real players who decides literally everything that happens and every waking moment works toward taking over the planet, where every nation is someone's pawn, where geopolitics take precedence over human life. Then Russia invading Ukraine might look like a sensible response to America's (Globohomo™) invasion of Iraq and the like. The sort of worldview a child who just discovered conspirology would adopt. Or a grownup retard who spends far too much time on /pol/ and should know better.

One benefit for Russia is Ukraine still uses the same gauge for its railways.

In hindsight they should have converted the network to standard gauge producing a break on the Russian border and more infrastructure integration with the EU, but I'm sure that will be a priority once the war is over.

Seems like a serious undertaking that even a rich country would struggle to implement.

 

[Ghostse]

he thought somehow Putin could hand the upper Carpathians to the Poles as a peace offering

That's crazy.
Vigo would never allow it.

Railways are easy to repair. Easier than roads.

or rather, it depends on the kind of damage. with holes/cracks/craters in a road you need to add some fresh asphalt, with damaged railway you need to bring replacement steel tracks and thermite weld them in place. both require specialized equipment and trained workers.
but the big difference is that a damaged road can still be used, or is at least easy to makeshift-fix by random laymen to the point where it's usable again. you can just dump sand or gravel on top of the damage and the area around it, and get it to a point where vehicles can get across with relative ease.
meanwhile a damaged railway track is completely unusable because your train will fucking derail and cause a gigantic catastrophe if it tries to drive across, and fixing it is impossible unless you have trained specialists and equipment on site.

@DumbDude43 has it the right way. It depends on the damage.

Roads are fairly easy to repair if you have enough material, and most vehicles can tolerate a little bumpy. Roads can also be rerouted.

Railroads however are more resistant to damage; you need to get your shell on a rail, rails can be replaced, and the ground under rails is usually heavy compressed to deal with trainloads so its more resistant to artillery. Additionally, since you are using steel rails as your surface you can use literal boulders to patch impact craters.

The main thing that a railroad gets you though is throughput & efficiency. When it comes to moving cargo quickly and with the least energy, Rail wins hands down. And Russia is master of rail logistics, so they will have repair crews who know what they're doing and supplies to make those repairs.

As was said above, even a small rail yard is a huge boon for Russia. They will be looking to try to connect that up to the North and their main logistics hubs, but they still have a lot of territory to take before that's a concern.

Russia has a very large military train repair crew and engineering units dedicated to that. Not a huge shock. It's specialized work but they're more than capable of quickly doing it.

They have pretty much a whole branch that is just Rail - maintenance, operation, logistics. This is how they are are able to move Marines from Siberia to Ukraine in less than a week.

Everything once it leaves the tracks is garbage, but up to that point its trained & skilled professionals.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Team Z is absolutely convinced they didn't just take Bakhmut, they also literally destroyed 5 brigades of Ukrainian Troops in the process. Its breathtakingly stupid. Even I, in my infinitely gay and cringe support Ukraine argued that when Ukraine retook Kherson it literally destroyed an entire Guards Army in the process. Inflicted heavy casualties certainly, but the Russians had clearly gotten away. I suspect the same is true here, and in this case the Ukrainians don't even have a fucking huge river between them and their next defense line.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

I doubt that a ceasefire will happen because both sides have found a way to justify a “victory or death” approach to the conflict: Zelensky will say that “Ukraine can never hope for peace as long as Putin is in office” and is trying to find someone, anyone, who will agree with him.

And he would be correct. Putin is untrustworthy, and any agreement he wants to push wouldn't be worth the paper its printed on. In any case, the Russians would never push for anything anyway. Putin has gone all in to stake his credibility to this conflict. He can't back out now, no matter how much it makes sense.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Seems like a serious undertaking that even a rich country would struggle to implement.

The main cost would be railroad bridges, ripping up tracks and laying them to a new gauge isn't too hard but rebuilding every single bridge would be very expensive.

 

[Clownish]

CNN Link
Bellingcat Link

I told you guys this retarded anime gang was real. Now they have a CNN and a Bellingcat investigation article.

 

[DumbDude43]

Hm, I really thought that a giant hole where a rail used to be would make repair problematic, guess not. Still, there are options - trains themselves or depots, like you said.

if you want to really fuck shit up hard, you figure out the train schedule and destroy a section of track right before the train passes over it.

 

[mindlessobserver]

And he would be correct. Putin is untrustworthy, and any agreement he wants to push wouldn't be worth the paper its printed on. In any case, the Russians would never push for anything anyway. Putin has gone all in to stake his credibility to this conflict. He can't back out now, no matter how much it makes sense.

Its worse then that really. Russia aimed for the King and missed. They may have had a leg to stand on with respect to territorial concessions in exchange for Peace, had they not gone for Kiev on day 1 of the invasion. That move crystalized the political elite of Ukraine with the virulently Anti-Russian West of the country.

Before that move, if you had asked the average Hohol on the streets of Lviv if they would be willing to exchange all of the Donbass and even Kharkiv if it meant an end to bullshit shenanigans with the Muscovites, they would have said "Fuck Kharkiv and Mariople" in a heart beat. Because the Russian propaganda about how the people West of the Dneiper viewed the people East of the Dneiper WAS accurate. They viewed them, not without reason, as a fifth column undermining their nice and ordered Ukrainian State.

But the Donbass was not enough for Putin. He wanted the old Empire back, and that meant he NEEDED Kiev. Not for any economic or strategic reasons, but because Kiev was necessary to justify his revanchist historical narrative. And that was the bridge too far for Lviv and the Western Ukrainians, because that bridge was the bridge to denying their own cultural and historical existence. That move, is what turned this into an all out war.

And it is why peace atm is intractable, because from day 1, Russia didn't make this about Land, it made this about the very existence of an entire European cultural group. Kiev and Lviv can "fight to the last Hohol" because they are not fighting to the last Hohol. They are fighting to the last Ivan. In the Russian speaking regions of the country. Kiev and Lviv are not being blown to fucking smithereens by Wagner and the Russian Federation. Zaporizhia, Kherson and Kharkiv are being blown to smithereens. Russian speaking cities. Why on earth does Russia think its scorched earth assaults on ethnically Russian territory will convince the UKRAINIAN government in Kiev to concede?

And you want to know the punchline to this joke? Team Z doesn't even know the punchline has already occured. Putin has ethnically cleansed the Russians from Ukraine. All that is left now is for Ukraine to push back, reclaim the ruins and repopulate them with Ukrainians.