Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

International Law is crystal clear on this issue. Minor Children unarmed are automatically conferred non-combatant status under the Geneva Convention, as such they cannot be seized by occupying authorities unless there is a militarily practical reason for doing so. In which case however, they must be held as Prisoners of War subject to repatriation at the cessation of hostilities. Putting the children up for adoption in Russia instead is a violation of the Geneva Convention as it precludes repatriation.

Not just a war crime either. AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED GENOCIDAL ACT. These kids weren't just kidnapped against their will. They were sent to "reeducation camps" in order to forcefully Russify them. They are trying to erase their Ukrainian identity. Hell, Maria Lvova-Belova, who is the Presidential Commissioner for Children's Rights in the Russian Federation (yes really), who also had a warrant issued to her by the ICC for her connection with the child deportations had the fucking gall to openly admit that she had "adopted" a child from Mariupol! These people really have no shame, and sending out arrest warrants for fuckers doing shit like this is exactly why the ICC was created.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Since nobody has bothered, making an archive. As this is an official website, I am posting in full, please no bully @Useful_Mistake

Situation in Ukraine: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova

Today, 17 March 2023, Pre-Trial Chamber II of the International Criminal Court (“ICC” or “the Court”) issued warrants of arrest for two individuals in the context of the situation in Ukraine: Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Ms Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova. Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin...

www.icc-cpi.int

Situation in Ukraine: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova

Today, 17 March 2023, Pre-Trial Chamber II of the International Criminal Court (“ICC” or “the Court”) issued warrants of arrest for two individuals in the context of the situation in Ukraine: Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Ms Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova.

Situation in Ukraine: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladim…

archived 17 Mar 2023 21:40:02 UTC

archive.is

 

[MS Paint Gigachad]

Glancing hits. The helmets are not meant to stop bullets. They are meant to protect your head if you fall off the vehicle, trip on a March and land in rocks, or otherwise do some do some dumb shit that could smack your head. And maybe block shrapnel.

The military helmet (as far as the 20th and 21st centuries are concerned) was literally invented for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of stopping shrapnel. Besides, if the few millimeters of steel they were using in ww1 could stop shrapnel, I'd expect a later 20th/21st century helmet to be able to stop a little more, with their kevlar and shit. Maybe not a full-power rifle round hitting square at short range, but maybe pistols or glancing hits

 

[Ghostse]

In fairness to the ICC, even though I dislike them on general principle, the issue they decided to go to the mat over was the deportation of minor children from Ukraine to Russia, and then subsequently putting them up for adoption.

That sort of shit I don't have an issue with, or I guess significantly less issue with - that is politicians judging other politicians. Or again, shit that's very clearly "What the fuck" like you have a ditch full of what was very clearly executed prisoners.

And this shit is why this isn't even in the same league as Afghanistan or Iraq. The US wasn't deporting afghani children, it wasn't trying to annex Kurdistan (and calling a sham vote after having done population replacement and nearly a decade of civil war).

I guess when addressing systemic war crimes like this, I'd rather see the ICC invited in instead of going there on its own initiative.
Basically I don't think the ICC shouldn't be a court but a more like a grand jury. They review evidence and make recommendations to another body about what sort of crimes might be provable - not hand down verdicts or mete out punishments. It'd let the ICC be a more neutral body, and work with say a 'Truth and reconciliation' or a convened warcrimes tribunal with teeth - that would be populated by people who know what the fuck their on about.
But I'll stop before I drift into full idealistic wanking.

 

[mindlessobserver]

That sort of shit I don't have an issue with, or I guess significantly less issue with - that is politicians judging other politicians. Or again, shit that's very clearly "What the fuck" like you have a ditch full of what was very clearly executed prisoners.

And this shit is why this isn't even in the same league as Afghanistan or Iraq. The US wasn't deporting afghani children, it wasn't trying to annex Kurdistan (and calling a sham vote after having done population replacement and nearly a decade of civil war).

I guess when addressing systemic war crimes like this, I'd rather see the ICC invited in instead of going there on its own initiative.
Basically I don't think the ICC shouldn't be a court but a more like a grand jury. They review evidence and make recommendations to another body about what sort of crimes might be provable - not hand down verdicts or mete out punishments. It'd let the ICC be a more neutral body, and work with say a 'Truth and reconciliation' or a convened warcrimes tribunal with teeth - that would be populated by people who know what the fuck their on about.
But I'll stop before I drift into full idealistic wanking.

The ICC was brought in because Ukraine signed the Rome Statute. That makes any war crimes subject to the ICC jurisdiction provided they occurred in a signatory state. At least, this is their argument and it's good enough for the purposes.

 

[No. 7 cat]

Begs the question though: Will they? Who's gonna arrest Putin when he shows up for a G20 summit?

The ICC could've just kept their mouth shut and said "We don't know, we need more time to gather evidence, we'll decide after the war is over." What do they achieve with this ruling, other than embarrassing themselves in the long run?

The deportation of children in great numbers is at least something where Putin and that silly bottle blond woman (particularly her who had a pretended adoption herself) gave evidence against themselves via RF TV reports which can be paired with testimony Ukrainian children sent via fake youth camps for spurious adoptions who later returned. The evidence gathering for rapes and sexual assaults has had issues (the relevant Ukrainian official, some ombudsman lady was dismissed for her poor work). Other crimes like alleged killings in anywhere from Izium to Bucha have better evidential standing. Finally the use of ranged weapons on civilian areas, whether artillery, drones and missiles should produce decent cases based on the former Yugoslav War Dayton tribunal.

Again it's a means of stripping Putin of standing before the world and his people. Enough of the Russian ruling class from siloviki and senior officials to the so called oligarchs may eventually decide Putin is making their life too hard. Yet there's little to no clear internal resistance or partisan activity in the RF. For instance the attack on the Suhkoi in Vladivostok could've been just another 'mysterious explosion' the owls of the SBU are good at doing now. The one or two mobilisation offices were possibly internal dissent, but that's it. Any mobik who doesn't want to serve just pays a small fine. Russians seems a bit indifferent to the humiliation of their Motherland.

I think Putin's summiting days are utterly done unless those third rate events with CSTO leaders who despise him, and maybe Modi and others like Lula who are mainly just content to get hydrocarbons tankered to them at a loss.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Again it's a means of stripping Putin of standing before the world and his people.

Exactly. Keep in mind, that with the issuing of these warrants, Putin is now effectively a wanted war criminal throughout a good chunk of the world, including the majority of Europe, Russia's main business partners. This directly effects his international standing. Also, keep in mind that the Russians still, publicly, claim they are doing nothing wrong and have committed no war crimes. This is symbolic of the world basically telling Russia "We know you're full of shit, shut the fuck up."

 

[Ghostse]

The ICC was brought in because Ukraine signed the Rome Statute. That makes any war crimes subject to the ICC jurisdiction provided they occurred in a signatory state. At least, this is their argument and it's good enough for the purposes.

I'm not questioning why they're brought in. I was just utopia sperging.
And of course as others said "Now let them enforce it"

Again it's a means of stripping Putin of standing before the world and his people. [...]

I think Putin's summiting days are utterly done unless those third rate events with CSTO leaders who despise him, and maybe Modi and others like Lula who are mainly just content to get hydrocarbons tankered to them at a loss.

Not enough rainbows for the first line.
The average Russian is (rightly) laughing at the toothless Eurocucks. If anything, the ICC warrant is making his standing stronger "See what those dress wearing eunchs in Cuckistan are doing? They are trying to tell you who you can and can't pick as your leader. IF you select a stronk leader who doesn't let fags and trannies turn your children in sodomite whores, they will use their unelected bureaucracy to remove them. This what we are trying to save Ukraine from. They are afraid because we are winning in Ukraine while they are letting their daughters be raped and killed by arabs. We have killed 410,757,864,530 Ukrainian nazis. The NATO Polish mercenaries are committing sucide at town square of Bahkmut, they are opening their bellies and god will roast their stomachs in hell. Anyway, that's why I need half a million more troops."
*Russian masses, eyeing the assembled security forces, chant "40 more years! 40 more years!"*

The second has been a given since this started. The Eurocucks are so far sticking to their guns and I'm pretty sure even before the ICC ruling Russia is going to on the Naughty List until Putin dies, even when the Eurocucks cave and want that cheap natural gas turned back on.

 

[GatorAids]

I feel extra sorry for those kids because I knew some kids who were orphans in Russia and got adopted in the early 2000s. They didn't paint a very pretty picture of orphanages in Russia. In fact I'd say most kids would probably prefer to be on the fucking street than the shit they told me. The kids being Ukes will probably only mean the situation will be even worse for them.

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

I was just utopia sperging.
And of course as others said "Now let them enforce it"

The point of ICC decision is more aimed towards lesser ruzzkie officials, like that batshit crazy guacamola nightmare Lvova-Belova (facts: married at 18 with a ex-priest, 5 kids before 30 yo, 18 more kids adopted - if that chick is sane and her housband isnt a pedo I have balls on forhead).
If ICC will make such decisions against other putins
s pets like that idiot from ruzzkie TV or officials from their MoD, it will be effictively fucking them into asses - they will not have a option to make a tour into any of european countries, most of American countries, more than half of Africa, Mongolia and even some ex-soviet republics in Central Asia.

Putin will probably never go into trial, but you never know it for sure. Gaddafi and president of Sudan also didn't expected to make it, and finally one of them was dead after few months after ICC decission, and the second one was handed by own country. I can imagine ruzzia in 2040, where part of negotiations about something they agree to hand out some of questioned persons.

 

[MG-34]

I feel extra sorry for those kids because I knew some kids who were orphans in Russia and got adopted in the early 2000s. They didn't paint a very pretty picture of orphanages in Russia. In fact I'd say most kids would probably prefer to be on the fucking street than the shit they told me. The kids being Ukes will probably only mean the situation will be even worse for them.

You also have to compound that with the vatnik yokels adopting these kids that will vent their korkodil and booze rage on these poor kids for the sin of their ethnicity. This is the equivalent of giving white kids to New Black Panthers or Moorish Sovreign Citizens.

 

[Random Internet Person]

In fairness to the ICC, even though I dislike them on general principle, the issue they decided to go to the mat over was the deportation of minor children from Ukraine to Russia, and then subsequently putting them up for adoption.

International Law is crystal clear on this issue. Minor Children unarmed are automatically conferred non-combatant status under the Geneva Convention, as such they cannot be seized by occupying authorities unless there is a militarily practical reason for doing so. In which case however, they must be held as Prisoners of War subject to repatriation at the cessation of hostilities. Putting the children up for adoption in Russia instead is a violation of the Geneva Convention as it precludes repatriation.

Setting aside literally all other whinging about muh human rights and proportional use of force, the decision to relocate tens of thousands of minor aged Ukrainian citizens to Russia and putting them up for adoption instead of holding them in POW camps pending repatriation and return to their parents was a flagrant and WILLFULL violation of the laws of war. So willfull in fact Putin went on Russian state TV to film himself being a war criminal. By the very letter in fact. There really is no way to moderate it.

Not just a war crime either. AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED GENOCIDAL ACT. These kids weren't just kidnapped against their will. They were sent to "reeducation camps" in order to forcefully Russify them. They are trying to erase their Ukrainian identity. Hell, Maria Lvova-Belova, who is the Presidential Commissioner for Children's Rights in the Russian Federation (yes really), who also had a warrant issued to her by the ICC for her connection with the child deportations had the fucking gall to openly admit that she had "adopted" a child from Mariupol! These people really have no shame, and sending out arrest warrants for fuckers doing shit like this is exactly why the ICC was created.

First ever president of a nuclear country with an arrest warrant. Congratulations to the Grandmaster Pynia. Now he's officially Milosevic.

While I truly ain't trying to stir shit, at the very least, the pro Russia thread gave me into on Belova, the other one the ICC has issues with, so that's a plus.

The "evil war criminal" Presidential Commissioner for Children's Rights Maria Lvova-Belova.

Lvova-Belova has been married to Pavel Kogelman, a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church and formerly a programmer,[13][4] since 2003 and has five biological and eighteen adopted children.[14][15] Her biological children were born in 2005, 2007, 2010, 2014, and 2018.[4]

In February 2023, she stated that she had adopted a 15-year-old boy from Mariupol, which caused controversy due to the forced deportation of children from Russian-occupied areas of eastern Ukraine. - Archive - Wikipedia

https://archive.ph/2kZIB

Literally a trad wife unlike that crazy thot Natalia Poklonskaya. Her pro-Putin predecessor as Presidential Commissioner for Children's Rights, Anna Kuznetsova, is also a trad wife with 7 kids. Reminds me of this meme.

But seriously, you're going to call a mother of 23 children a war criminal because she adopted an orphan from Mariupol and moved children to safer zones in Russia so they won't get shelled? I hate how morally incomprehensible the West is.

At least we got a meme out of it.

ICC: ARREST PUTIN.

Russia/India/China/Middle East: lolwut

Funnily enough, the US isn't beholden to the ICC either.

Yeah, from what I've heard the issue will be being able to grab Putin, and folks pointing that GWB and Dick Cheney should also be behind bars in The Hague for 2003 and Iraq.

Finally the use of ranged weapons on civilian areas, whether artillery, drones and missiles should produce decent cases based on the former Yugoslav War Dayton tribunal.

Is the violation just from firing, or is it something where the tribunal isn't violated if you can prove "the hospital is serving as a makeshift barracks, and the soldiers there are perfectly healthy", or "this apartment building is doubling as a makeshift barracks" or "this school is housing weapons in the cafeteria, and the gym is used for military drills."?

 

[Netizennameless]

I think you are missing the bigger geopolitical picture. Nato is looking incredibly weak and cowardly.
-Putin invades Georgia.
Nato response: Stern words and condemnation
-Putin invades Chechnya
Nato response: Stern words and condemnation
-China recaptures Hong Kong
Nato response: Stern words and condemnation.
-Russia invades Ukraine.
Nato response: Send billions of dollars in equipment that has to be paid but made very clear in the beginning of the war they physically will not get involved.
-China regularly violates Taiwan's airspace
Nato response: Stern words and condemnation
-Russia threatens nuclear war
Nato response: Strong words and condemnation
-Russia literally shoots down an American aircraft on international waters (haha drunk vatnik doesn't know how to fly) spin it however you want but the reality is Putin put down a US aircraft in international waters.
Nato response: stern words and condemnation
See a pattern here? Point is the UN can huff and puff all they want about democracy but they will not do action, because in reality these things aren't strategically worth it to them.

I see Russia taking the same path Nazi Germany did at the start of WW2. Hitler thought the US was a mongrel race doomed to the trash bin of history and bullied the cuck euros because he didn't think they would do anything either. How did that turn out? Germany got skullfucked so hard that 80 years later they are still a vassal state of the US. Their ally Japan too.

 

[Vince McMahon]

>But seriously, you're going to call a mother of 23 children a war criminal because she adopted an orphan from Mariupol and moved children to safer zones in Russia so they won't get shelled? I hate how morally incomprehensible the West is.

Boy, if you think that, considering the overall degeneracy of the Russian elite, they are well taken care of, then I've got a bridge to sell to that fella. That crazy woman also has 8 children, if I remember correctly, being married to a Russian Orthodox monk/former programmer. Do they have the space alone to host so many children? If so, I'd like to see her bank and tax statement. What's that? According to the Russian law, bureaucrats tax info is now considered a state secret? Color me surprised.

And yeah, children aren't your property, even if they're orphans in another country.

Imagine being delusional for so long, that you must present a literal kidnapping as a morally laudable thing to do.

 

[Standardized Profile]

I want to represent the pro-Russia faction's logic correctly. I don't want to caricature or strawman them in any way. Tell me if I got this right:

She only adopted them to move them to a safer part of Russia, as the part of Russia where they were living is currently being occupied by the armed forces of the illegitimate so-called state of "Ukraine," who are Nazis. And not the good Nazis like Hitler who did nothing wrong, these are the bad Nazis led by the Russian-speaking Ukrainian Jew whose ancestors fought for the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War or died in the Holocaust, which is a hoax but it should have happened. If the Russians didn't save them, those kids would have been murdered by the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, which is incredibly based but also cringe, so thank God Wagner Group and their SS-tattooed leaders saved them from the globalhomo Nazis of Ukraine. Also the Biden family launders money there and probably molested all the children, which is the only reason NATO is involved at all.

 

[MS Paint Gigachad]

I see Russia taking the same path Nazi Germany did at the start of WW2. Hitler thought the US was a mongrel race doomed to the trash bin of history and bullied the cuck euros because he didn't think they would do anything either. How did that turn out? Germany got skullfucked so hard that 80 years later they are still a vassal state of the US. Their ally Japan too.

Even then the west looked weak and cowardly, resorting to strong words and condemnation at best and outright accepting some demands in treaties at worst until about when they invaded Poland. Then the so-called phony war where they didnt actually do much fighting but were technically at war with Germany. So in a way, we're doing much better than the allies did in the 30's

 

[Trig.Point]

The ICC was going to look ridiculous if it didn't get involved. I'm not defending it, some of the shit the ICC does such as dragging out court cases, so a particular judge gets to do the sentencing shows how dysfunctional it can be.

However the ICC doesn't have to worry about ever actually putting Putin on trial, and it was very careful about the charges its brought, Putin dumb fuck that he is basically admitted his guilt on TV, it's easily verifiable that he gave the order to kidnap children and put them up for adoption. I'm not an expert but I wonder if the fact that forced adoptions was such a feature of right wing dictatorships in South America, isn't why there was such a focus on it from the ICC.

The court case drives a wedge between Russia and potential allies such as Brazil, South Africa. It makes Russia more reliant on India and China, who are going to be driving tough deals. It'll also probably end up with Russia being pushed out of more and more international bodies, science, art, sports etc. That in particular is made easier by the fact that Putin has being using international bodies the same way he's used Ambassadorships, as a way of rewarding loyal goons. People who routinely manage to alienate everyone around them. Even the Iranian parliament has members up in Arms about supplying drones to Russia.

Putin is such a dumb fuck, Russia had genuine influence within Europe, Hungary, France, Germany, even the Netherlands all worked to clean up after him. He was even genuinely popular with segments of their public. Now he's shown he's an untrustworthy midwit surrounded by idiots, nobody that matters is ever going to engage with him again.

 

[Elämällä on väliä]

the pro Russia thread gave me into on Belova

And they also fed you with missinfo and fakenews about that bitch.

Yes, separating children from their families and "adopting" them by ruzzkie pedos, degenerates and such one is a clear warcrime. And yes, also denying them access to education in their language and educating them in patriotism by occupying country is another war crime.

GWB and Dick Cheney should also be behind bars in The Hague for 2003 and Iraq.

Starting a war isn't a warcrime. Funny, but true.

Is the violation just from firing, or is it something where the tribunal isn't violated if you can prove "the hospital is serving as a makeshift barracks, and the soldiers there are perfectly healthy", or "this apartment building is doubling as a makeshift barracks" or "this school is housing weapons in the cafeteria, and the gym is used for military drills."?

This object was used by military in which way?

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

Image/video dump:

Heroic young man extinguishes the Moscow Eternal Flame.

Spoiler: Artwork & Stills

Spoiler: Videos (one NSFW)

Skedaddle

Moscovite Whack-a-Mole

Obligatory

Dawn Patrol

 

[mindlessobserver]

Is the violation just from firing, or is it something where the tribunal isn't violated if you can prove "the hospital is serving as a makeshift barracks, and the soldiers there are perfectly healthy", or "this apartment building is doubling as a makeshift barracks" or "this school is housing weapons in the cafeteria, and the gym is used for military drills."

Generally, no civilian target can be engaged unless it serves a military purpose to do so. What a "military purpose" is is so wide a definition you can drive a tank through it. Most of the rules were thought up in the 19th century when battles were usually set piece affairs in a more localized area rather then encompassing entire provinces. Its alot easier to say "don't shoot cannonballs at the farm house" in this scenario then when you are firing off GRAD rockets to wipe out an entire grid square. Russia can just say they were aiming at a Ukrainian tank, and the school next to it was collateral damage.

What got the Serbs in the Dayton Tribunal was not the fact they hit civilian targets, but that commanders specifically ordered their troops to do so. When it comes to these sorts of things, commanders need to always caveat such orders with "in mine craft". The intention may be obvious to the guys on the guns, but when asked later they can always say they were aiming at a militarily actionable target. The fact 50 kids died in the process was a regrettable by product.