The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

The most telling moment above all was when history speaks really put his foot in his mouth in his understanding of natural processes and Chugger defended him that he agreed "if history means X" which was contrary to what he had just said.

Or his constant false portrayal of how his discussion with rapechu went. Irving lost his court case over much smaller mistakes that were argued to be bias, comparably.

What now with me and my Rapechu?

Particularly the aim is to wound the pride of the orthodox peddlers and entice them to come out and state their case clearly

You just made me feel bad for your kids. I think you're delusional. It's a sad thing.

 

[mrolonzo]

What now with me and my Rapechu?


You just made me feel bad for your kids. I think you're delusional. It's a sad thing.

I think you're a disingenuous faggot. It's a sad thing to see when all im asking for is your best arguments. You should go have kids and get some self respect. Maybe a job, maybe lift weights too. It'll bring you down to earth.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

my Rapechu?

That possessiveness of someone who didn't like you says it all.

Because while we revisionists and "suit wearers" as you might say,

I don't think revisionists are "suit wearers" as I symbolised it. I think you are. There's a difference.

I haven't been reading every post, so I think I missed your recent discussion. But I presume it to be more or less in line with your earlier discussion. Keeping that in mind, I very much doubt that you "smash them utterly" as you're saying now. Likes and such don't mean much, but they do show the level of engagement people have with the discussion and you can see that it's almost completely gone.

If one side is disingenonuously protecting a false narrative and the other side is noble hardworking people who want to expose the truth as you seem to portray it, then judging by the current state the former are winning because you only end up exposing something if you manage to reach new people. And there is almost no engagement here.

If you're right about a tree falling in the forest, but there was no one there to see it....

 

[Chugger]

That possessiveness of someone who didn't like you says it all.

Rapechu respected my erudition and I think on multiple times defended me from the more barbaric posters here

@Chugger this will be my last response for now, I am exhausted. I will make this more thorough than a usual post. Anyways, I respect your knowledge of history, even if I am making mean accusations about you.

and in his last message showed that despite our differences and heated exchanges there were no hard feelings

Don't take offense, I mean it in a light-hearted way.

I'm pretty sure mrolonzo and bonesjones detest me. JohnDoe too maybe but he is such an eccentric it's hard to gauge. You think I'm here knowingly being dishonest to deniers, the ethical superiority I project is a cheap charade

Compared to you guys, Rapechu loved me. And in the end agreed with me that millions died, and that numerically he was closer to orthodoxy than the 'foremost revisionists' that mrolonzo touts.

Essentially yes. There are massive gaps in public knowledge, but I think it is probably wishful thinking that most of the jews survived, and I can't find any evidence to support this. Though I can't say the majority of them died in shootings specifically, only that the majority of them died as a combination of shootings, famine, disease and the war (as collateral damage or conscription into the red army). Shootings were definitely a major factor though.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

Compared to you guys, Rapechu loved me. And in the end agreed with me that millions died, and that numerically he was closer to orthodoxy than the 'foremost revisionists' that mrolonzo touts

False as usual. He obviously didnt love you. I think you enjoy making up these lies. He was trying to create a productive discussion, but I had a bit more of a view on what he thought about you from my private correspondance with him.

In regards to the point, there were also millions of japanese and millions of indians that died during the second world war. There is a chasm of difference between a planned genocide with gas chambers, a history shown to be false repeatedly and what he seemed to believe had happened in his last post.

It's also factually incorrect even from within your own framework. If he believed it was 2 million he was numerically closer to revisionists than the official 6 million.

 

[Chugger]

False as usual. He obviously didnt love you.

I said he loved me "compared to you guys" you absolute nudnik. Regarding your logs I think our relationship really blossomed at the end so you should look at the timeline

In regards to the point, there were also millions of japanese and millions of indians that died during the second world war. There is a chasm of difference between a planned genocide with gas chambers, a history shown to be false repeatedly and what he seemed to believe had happened in his last post.

It's also factually incorrect even from within your own framework. If he believed it was 2 million he was numerically closer to revisionists than the official 6 million.

Well read that exchange again, I asked him if he thought millions died and stated that he seemed closer to believers than revisionists in terms of death toll to which he replied "essentially yes"

You're forgetting that there were only a few million resettled Jews in Rapechu's universe, so in proportional terms this would be like if during the war and occupation 50 million Japanese civilians died instead of 1 mil. Something like this doesn't happen unless a genocidal policy is in place. This is the position Rapechu was about to defend, and I'm not surprised he left the forum. In terms of what happened to the deported Polish Jews (most relevant to the gassing issue) this was not a topic we had really gotten into. You've also avoided this topic, using my supposed dishonesty as an unconscious cope probably

 

[Bonesjones]

I'm pretty sure mrolonzo and bonesjones detest me.

You aren't even worthy of thought, you pretend to care and act interested when all you can do is regurgitate other people's ideas for money.

 

[mrolonzo]

I don't think revisionists are "suit wearers" as I symbolised it. I think you are. There's a difference.

I haven't been reading every post, so I think I missed your recent discussion. But I presume it to be more or less in line with your earlier discussion. Keeping that in mind, I very much doubt that you "smash them utterly" as you're saying now. Likes and such don't mean much, but they do show the level of engagement people have with the discussion and you can see that it's almost completely gone.

If one side is disingenonuously protecting a false narrative and the other side is noble hardworking people who want to expose the truth as you seem to portray it, then judging by the current state the former are winning because you only end up exposing something if you manage to reach new people. And there is almost no engagement here.

If you're right about a tree falling in the forest, but there was no one there to see it....

Perhaps you feel I am a suit wearer in that I put on an intransigent suit?

I generally answer all their queries. Obviously they cannot believe that the infamous SS would be kind to Jews in their care. I post the finest revisionist scholarship. I offer discussion on the technical issues of execution and witness statements. They avoid all this. This is seen by every reader here.

The holocaust peddler believes totally not in truth as reality but in the perception of truth as reality. Thus witness statements create the reality for them. Thus if an event is established by "history", I.e. people in a high enough though vague number and importance say an event occurred then it indeed occurred.


Thus they are smashed utterly. As ive said before, revisionism is much like gravity.

Rapechu respected my erudition and I think on multiple times defended me from the more barbaric posters here


and in his last message showed that despite our differences and heated exchanges there were no hard feelings


I'm pretty sure mrolonzo and bonesjones detest me. JohnDoe too maybe but he is such an eccentric it's hard to gauge. You think I'm here knowingly being dishonest to deniers, the ethical superiority I project is a cheap charade

Compared to you guys, Rapechu loved me. And in the end agreed with me that millions died, and that numerically he was closer to orthodoxy than the 'foremost revisionists' that mrolonzo touts.

To be quite fair. Even I respect your erudition. Compared to Stan and a few others you at least understand alot of issues. You have indeed argued your case on codoh.com.

Rapechu is obviously a nice fellow. But he doesn't really get you. Because he's not followed you.

Rapechu asserts that many died but still a clear path was available to those who didn't directly fight the whermact. He answered your question about populations in the east , and pointed out that they went to Stutthof in one example. Just as you repeatedly asked for. Your response was to assert that they went to extermination centres where they were thus exterminated. We pointed out that extermination centres were no such thing, that they could not have been, there was no mass murder method etc etc. You say obviously that no they did did there by mass murder because we have witnesses to this. But obviously these witnesses were all studied. Interestingly this is not a strong area of examination on this thread. Why? Because the peddlers here don't really want to discuss this.

 

[Chugger]

He answered your question about populations in the east , and pointed out that they went to Stutthof in one example. Just as you repeatedly asked for.

No what I said was this, in regards to Kovno which was the best (or one the best) examples he found of non-Jews being maintained in German occupied USSR :

In sum, you found evidence of a few thousand or perhaps 1/3 of the non-working population of Kovno ghetto surviving into 1944 and then most being deported to a place where there is no record of such Jews being maintained, and is in fact the most infamous of all Nazi extermination camps.

At best, if a situation like Kovno could be extrapolated across the whole of the east (which it can't), you showed 1/3 of the non-working Jews in Nazi hands possibly(!) survived, with almost all the rest rest having been killed by bullets

It's a great post, one of my best here, so I'm happy to bring it up.

I think Rapechu was smart and unbiased enough to see how inadequate his best example was and that's why he left the forum.

 

[Throng of Titans]

This thread is so bizarre to go through.

I mean, as an outsider for the most part, I'd agree with Chugger's arguments more, as some of the revisionist claims are just strange to me (especially the resettlement ones, there's a severe shortage of both German and Soviet records showing any signs of mass resettlement).

Issue is, Chugger keeps saying shit like

Rapechu respected my erudition and I think on multiple times defended me from the more barbaric posters here

Compared to you guys, Rapechu loved me.

Chugger, you sound like a smarmy homosexual redditor when you say shit like this. You're clearly trying to come across as "nicer" than Lonzo or Lemming (who do act dickish, no offense fellas), but your constant debate challenges and acting like you're the smartest retard in the sped class make you more unbearable than the two guys blatantly being dicks to you.

Stop arguing about how you were bestest buddies with some fucktard who left the site years ago, he isn't relevant, no one wants to hear you blow smoke up your own ass about your "erudition", post evidence, counter arguments, and stop sounding like a redditor.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

This thread is so bizarre to go through.

I mean, as an outsider for the most part, I'd agree with Chugger's arguments more, as some of the revisionist claims are just strange to me (especially the resettlement ones, there's a severe shortage of both German and Soviet records showing any signs of mass resettlement).

Issue is, Chugger keeps saying shit like



Chugger, you sound like a smarmy homosexual redditor when you say shit like this. You're clearly trying to come across as "nicer" than Lonzo or Lemming (who do act dickish, no offense fellas), but your constant debate challenges and acting like you're the smartest retard in the sped class make you more unbearable than the two guys blatantly being dicks to you.

Stop arguing about how you were bestest buddies with some fucktard who left the site years ago, he isn't relevant, no one wants to hear you blow smoke up your own ass about your "erudition", post evidence, counter arguments, and stop sounding like a redditor.

I agree with your assessment. There was a period where I seriously entertained what he said, but when it became clear he couldn't even accurately portray what had happened in this thread (like he does now with rapechu), then it became clear he was so fundamentally dishonest that it is a waste of time discussing things. I don't like people that are so fundamentally dishonest that they can't accurately mention a moment that both experienced.

And when confronted with such error it's always a double down and never an apology or correction.

It's one thing to have a different perspective on something, it's quite something else to have someone who purposefully moves their position inches at a time and expect people not to notice.




The demand for resettlement evidence is a way to shift the burden of evidence, because it demands evidence from a country that was known for falsifying its records extensively, it presumes the records prior were correct and even if all these things were accurate it doesn't prove what has happened and still doesn't answer all the flaws in the central tenets of holocaust myth: the gas chambers, the mass incineration, the fact that there are legion of testimonies of people that neither worked or were murdered in camps, having soccer teams, dentistry, theater shows.

Even one of the central pillars of the holocaust history exposes much. Anne Frank, who died in the hospital of a camp. It alone should dismiss most of the holocaust history. Nevermind that parts of the diary were written in ballpoint pen which did not exist in the netherlands, nevermind that they claimed that it was unedited, nevermind that otto frank was sued by a ghostwriter for not paying, which they later claimed was about a never published theaterplay. Nevermind that a couple of years ago, just before anne frank's diary would become public domain, as all written works do 70 years after the death of the last maker, they added Otto Frank as co-author so that they could extend the copyright.

Now all of this does not dismiss that jews died during the war, that jews were persecuted in nazi germany, that on the eastern front millions of people died and that these millions included jews. I consider it a near certainty that genocide took place. Though it's worth pointing out that genocide as a term was invented for political purposes exactly to portray this history in a certain way. A term that is not used for either planned parenthood or the migration policies of the western world, or the treatment of palestinians, even though it meets all of its criteria to be called genocide.

 

[mrolonzo]

No what I said was this, in regards to Kovno which was the best (or one the best) examples he found of non-Jews being maintained in German occupied USSR :

It's a great post, one of my best here, so I'm happy to bring it up.

I think Rapechu was smart and unbiased enough to see how inadequate his best example was and that's why he left the forum.

This is Mattogno's conclusion from the Einsatzgruppen study broken down into easy digestible chunks;


The Einsatzgruppen in the occupied eastern territories performed many intelligence and administrative missions.

The first concerned all the vital spheres of the occupied territories, namely the political, economic, social, cultural, religious and commercial sphere, among others, including the collection of important Soviet documents. The administrative tasks consisted on the one hand in the restoration of the administrative, social and economic structure in the regions devastated by the retreating Soviets or by the fighting, on the other in the search, identification and control of all those who were considered ideological or political enemies of Germany or who carried out acts hostile to the German troops or to the populations of the occupied countries, first and foremost the partisans.


Most Jews tragically fell into this category. The Einsatzgruppen never received an order to exterminate the Jews as such, and the executions of Jews they perpetrated did not have a racial character; Jewry was rather considered the fertile breeding ground of Bolshevism, which was the primary enemy of the National Socialist regime, and as such the Jews were ruthlessly combatted in pursuance of that view.





Regarding the number of victims, over 40% of the approximately 728,000
killings listed in the Einsatzgruppen reports are not verifiable, and there is a serious possibility that many figures listed in these documents were exaggerated or even invented, as inflated numbers allowed the various commanders to receive kudos from Berlin as the destroyers of Bolshevism’s breeding ground, hence as heroes who had thus inflicted a severe blow on the enemy regime.






After a thorough analysis, we find that the hypothesis of the deployment of
“gas vans” in the occupied eastern territories is an unfounded and nonsensical fable, which further undermines the already-shaky foundations of the orthodox Holocaust narrative.



Regarding the alleged activity to exhume and cremate the execution victims,
the following points can be established with certainty:


1) Orthodox Holocaust historiography has never proven that the authorities of
the Reich planned and carried out a general plan on an institutional level to eliminate the bodies of the victims of the Einsatzgruppen and other associated units by means of a systematic operation of exhumation and cremation of bodies.

The cutting edge of such historiography, Shmuel Spektor and Jens Hoffmann, have limited themselves to presenting, without the slightest critical sense, a mass of absurd and contradictory testimonies, very often issued many years after the alleged events. For these historians, no absurdity is absurd enough and no contradiction is
so contradictory as to require changing their opinions. This attitude of supine acquiescence and compliance renders them worthy disciples of Soviet propaganda.



2) Soviet propaganda proclaimed the discovery of innumerable mass graves and hundreds of thousands of bodies, but those which are documented, and may be considered real, are only a tiny fraction of these claims.



3) The same is true for the innumerable photographs of executions, mass
graves and bodies, which document events of an order of magnitude relatively insignificant compared to what is asserted.



4) There is such an immense disproportion between the execution figures proclaimed in the various German reports and the corpses actually found that one can reasonably consider the proclaimed death toll to be greatly exaggerated.




5) There is no doubt that the Germans carried out individual cremation operations, but these left more than obvious traces on the one hand, and they resulted from local initiatives on the other hand. It is permissible to doubt how much sense it would make, for the Einsatzgruppen and associated units, to exaggerate the number of executions, particularly with regard to the Jews. The principal motivation is probably the fact that the Jews were considered by the National Socialists to be the creators and sustainers of Judeo-Bolshevism and, by virtue of this conception, they represented the quintessence of Bolshevism, the enemy by antonomasia; consequently, so National Socialists thought, the more the Jewish element was destroyed, the more this would undermine the foundation of Bolshevism. Military considerations were intermixed here with ideological, political and career considerations. As is shown in Chapter 1 of Part One, the compilation of the final reports
handed down to us is comparable to a river made up of many small rivulets: various Teilkommandos sent reports to their superior units, who summarized them and transmitted them to the central command – from the Teikommandos to the Einsatzkommandos or Sonderkommandos right up to the respective Einsatzgruppe – which sent them to Department IV A 1 of the RSHA, which reprocessed them. It was a chain in which every link could have an interest in exaggerating the figures to show its own efficiency, and this is even more true for the Gestapo.

At the Einsatzgruppen Trial, a few former heads of these units spoke openly of such exaggerations in the Gestapo’s final reports, but one cannot exclude the possibility that they had already received exaggerated or even invented figures from subordinate units.



To this date , there exists no finer study of the EG than this.

 

[mrolonzo]

An info graphic gift for kiwis. Take these and give them to anyone interested to read;

 

[Super-Chevy454]

An info graphic gift for kiwis. Take these and give them to anyone interested to read;

Thanks for sharing, also there's a new article about the Holocaust who might be worth to check an eye.
https://www.unz.com/jfreud/holodola...ntered-with-holo-correction-and-holo-context/

Holodolatry(Or Holocaust-Idolatry) Needs to be Countered with Holo-Correction and Holo-Context
Don't Deny the Horrors of World War II but Correct the Falsehoods and Provide the Contexts

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/southlake-texas-holocaust-books-schools-rcna2965

Ironic as it may seem, the above-mentioned Texas proposal might as well be a manna-from-heaven to Jewish Power because the discussion could easily be construed as a matter of “Holocaust Did Happen” vs “Holocaust Didn’t Happen”, with hardly any light in between. It’d be like posing the Soviet Question as one of “Stalin killed 30 million people” and “Stalin killed hardly anyone.” What about the possibility that Stalin might have killed 20 million, 10 million, or 5 million? The question of the Khmer Rouge’s role in the Cambodia Tragedy shouldn’t be boiled down to “Pol Pot kill three million” or “Pol Pot killed no one.” It would be a false dichotomy, the kind which has long dogged the discourse on the Shoah.

What we need is the Holocaust as history, thereby opening up the discussion and allowing questions, some of them inconvenient(given the current political, moral, and even ‘spiritual’ climate, as the Holocaust now comes closest to being a state religion in the West). The real problem is the Holocaust is treated as a dogma, even a matter of faith. We are to believe that 6 million Jews were killed(and one digit less is tantamount to ‘denial’) and that Jews were totally innocent and pure-as-snow, i.e. the German and other Anti-Semites just went bat-shit crazy due to legacy of Christian ‘antisemitism’ and ‘scientific racism’. (Christians have responded in two ways to this accusation: 1. Most Christians did what they could do to save Jews, and besides, it was the neo-pagan Nazis who were responsible, not the Christian West that, led by Liberal Democracies, especially the UK and US, defeated Hitler’s Empire. While Christians do need to re-examine their anti-Jewish prejudices, the true evils of Nazism were rooted in paganism and secularism, of which ‘scientific racism’ was a part. 2. Yes, Christianity is indeed to blame for the Holocaust with its charge against Jews as usurious Christ-killers, and therefore, the only path to redemption is to atone and apologize at the feet of Jews.)

 

[Chugger]

It's one thing to have a different perspective on something, it's quite something else to have someone who purposefully moves their position inches at a time and expect people not to notice.

What now? I venerated Rapechu from the get go (more or less after it was apparent he wasn't coming back)

Jan 29, 2022 . . . 42 days post Rapechu

Rapechu was the only who did: he was more committed to the cause and to actual history than any of you, and after examining the revisionist literature I sent him, he had to admit that millions of Jews must have died some way or another.

Rapechu was the best of you all, and now he is gone.

You should keep tabs on how many times you've said things that are demonstrably false and which you drop after it's pointed out. One example would be your continued disbelief about David Irving's full blown acceptance that millions of Jews were gassed, even when I presented clear evidence. You've been wrong a lot and writing it down each time it happens will help you deal with your high level of bias.

The demand for resettlement evidence is a way to shift the burden of evidence, because it demands evidence from a country that was known for falsifying its records extensively, it presumes the records prior were correct and even if all these things were accurate it doesn't prove what has happened and still doesn't answer all the flaws in the central tenets of holocaust myth: the gas chambers, the mass incineration, the fact that there are legion of testimonies of people that neither worked or were murdered in camps, having soccer teams, dentistry, theater shows.

Your entire view on this subject is based on an assumption that the USSR would be able to cover up the immense document and witness trail that would be generated by the resettlement of many hundreds of thousands of people, when they failed miserably to keep the lid on a much smaller event like the Katyn massacre (or any of their other crimes). With Katyn they didn't falsify a single German document, when by your logic they easily would have been able to do so. Bonejones thinks the Soviets killed the resettled Jews after liberation and any other witnesses, millions of people probably, and this is completely unknown to history.

Or you presume the population records are wrong. Revisionists like Sanning have downgraded the numbers significantly using dubious historical methods and they're still left with a million or two Jews that 'disappeared' in Nazi custody, which doesn't really help with the above problem. Maybe you go more extreme and side with the other fellow here who said the ghettos (which have been photographed, filmed, and about which enough information exists to fill whole libraries) were faked by both sides.

Either way you've done 0 interrogation of these massive issues while spending lots of time nitpicking around things like crema coal consumption and trying to mindread your interlocutors over what may or may not be jokes said on an internet forum. These concerns pale in comparison with issues you don't seem at all interested in grappling with. You're being intellectually lazy.

 

[Bonesjones]

Funny reply from someone who has not done a single second of original research, only cut and pasting from a blog of ill repute. You've had almost a year to compile your bulletproof evidence of the Holocaust happening but you've been unable to even piecemeal an arguement. Infact you are such a retard you've infact put forth more evidence that it didn't happen than it did. Your handlers are hopefully paying you poorly to repeatedly post and carry on because they are not getting their money's worth.

 

[Chugger]

Funny reply from someone who has not done a single second of original research, only cut and pasting from a blog of ill repute. You've had almost a year to compile your bulletproof evidence of the Holocaust happening but you've been unable to even piecemeal an arguement. Infact you are such a retard you've infact put forth more evidence that it didn't happen than it did. Your handlers are hopefully paying you poorly to repeatedly post and carry on because they are not getting their money's worth.

Funny reply coming from someone more interested in talking about all the cows they have sex with than in doing research on this subject. Many times I've told you, bonesjones, what you do with your cows is your business, you can eat them or have sex with them, but this is the Holocaust thread and you are being off topic.

But you just keep on talking about all the cows you have sex with. It's weird.

 

[Bonesjones]

Funny reply coming from someone more interested in talking about all the cows they have sex with than in doing research on this subject. Many times I've told you, bonesjones, what you do with your cows is your business, you can eat them or have sex with them, but this is the Holocaust thread and you are being off topic.

But you just keep on talking about all the cows you have sex with. It's weird.

Lmao what does that even mean? You're fucking unhinged.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

One example would be your continued disbelief about David Irving's full blown acceptance that millions of Jews were gassed, even when I presented clear evidence. You've been wrong a lot and writing it down each time it happens will help you deal with your high level of bias.

Very convincing link.

I suggest everyone follow it so they have their mind blown.

---

David Irving changed his position on the gas chambers while he was in police custody for holocaust denial. He pled guilty, but the judge said he did not believe Irving had genuinely recanted. Why do you believe he did?

 

[mrolonzo]

Funny reply coming from someone more interested in talking about all the cows they have sex with than in doing research on this subject. Many times I've told you, bonesjones, what you do with your cows is your business, you can eat them or have sex with them, but this is the Holocaust thread and you are being off topic.

But you just keep on talking about all the cows you have sex with. It's weird.

Bonesjones has been consistently rebuffing Chugger page after page. Finally Chuggers facade breaks down. Much hilarity ensues.

Blah blah blah...david irving......resettlement.....sanning is dubious because I say so....

Obviously Chugger refuses to communicate with me directly again. We all know why, he thinks lemmingwiser is a soft touch and hopes to wrangle something out of him and claim another "scalp" from the thread as he views Rapechu, and from elsewhere as he views David Irving and Eric Hunt.


So quoting his tripe as blah blah blah is appropriate. Don't worry though, Chugger is unable to avoid what I say because I post revisionists and revisionism. This sticks in his craw and makes everyone very happy to see him unable to do anything about it.

Here is Hadding Scott's detailed analysis of what David Irving has been saying and in what context;

Talking Frankly about David Irving | CODOH

codoh.com

Here is Walter Sanning's latest findings as well as the Rudolf comparison of Sanning and Benz. Already posted here and ignored obviously. Plus a few other criticisms and responses, I guarantee you will find this excellent and accessible reading;

https://codoh.com/library/document/new-insights-into-the-dissolution-of-eastern/en/

Holocaust Victims: A Statistical Analysis | CODOH

codoh.com

'The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry’: An Exchange | CODOH

codoh.com

How Many Jews Died in the German Concentration Camps? | CODOH

codoh.com

Lastly attached is a few tidbits about how all this shit got started.