Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

Raised with the bare minimum of catholic beliefs and dropped my faith in the pope and his circle but would it be bad to say that I think Jesus was a mortal in life but divine after he died? Anglicism just makes a bit more sense to me but the trinity would make sense as well.
 
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Raised with the bare minimum of catholic beliefs and dropped my faith in the pope and his circle but would it be bad to say that I think Jesus was a mortal in life but divine after he died? Anglicism just makes a bit more sense to me but the trinity would make sense as well.
He was both divine and mortal. He was able to perform miracles, but came specifically so he could pay the penalty for our sins.

thats a fair point. although, this doesnt change the fact that these are still bad things. this theme is reiterated where it says that God creates the light and the darkness, do you think its just talking about literal light and darkness here? it seems to be implying goodness and badness too, which is congruent with the behavior of the OT God who condones numerous instances of atrocities/immoral behavior:

Deuteronomy 20:16-17


Numbers 31:17-18


if this isnt considered as "evil" behavior then what is?
The people being described in 31: 17-18 were Baal worshippers and practiced sinful behavior like bestiality and child sacrifice. The adult women would seduce the male Israelites into worshipping Baal and the boys were killed because it would be highly likely they would want to continue the practice of their forefathers and take revenge. Considering children are considered innocent in God's eyes, killing them was an act of mercy and they're brought to Heaven.

It's a common theme throughout the Old Testament for communities who continually practiced abhorrent and sinful behavior like Sodom and Gomorrah to be eradicated by God. God does this to protect others from being led astray from him.

So no, I don't think God practices evil. He does harsh things for the greater good. A good we aren't capable of fully understanding.


Source I used.
 
Would it be bad to say that I think Jesus was a mortal in life but divine after he died?
Yes. That doesn't even make any sense. He's not like a Greek hero that was divinized by the Gods and allowed into Olympus. He is Absolute Being Itself, taken finite form, the form of the beggar, hung upon the Tree, rose on the third day, trampling death by death, etc, etc
 
He was both divine and mortal. He was able to perform miracles, but came specifically so he could pay the penalty for our sins.


The people being described in 31: 17-18 were Baal worshippers and practiced sinful behavior like bestiality and child sacrifice. The adult women would seduce the male Israelites into worshipping Baal and the boys were killed because it would be highly likely they would want to continue the practice of their forefathers and take revenge. Considering children are considered innocent in God's eyes, killing them was an act of mercy and they're brought to Heaven.

It's a common theme throughout the Old Testament for communities who continually practiced abhorrent and sinful behavior like Sodom and Gomorrah to be eradicated by God. God does this to protect others from being led astray from him.

So no, I don't think God practices evil. He does harsh things for the greater good. A good we aren't capable of fully understanding yet.


Source I used.
sorry man, not buying it. this is pure cope. the source even says so, "APOLOGETICSpress"

So no, I don't think God practices evil. He does harsh things for the greater good. A good we aren't capable of fully understanding yet.
that being said, I do partially agree here. im not saying that God is completely bad, im saying that his character is complex. you can read my earlier comment to see what I think about it:


to be clear, we have differing opinions but we both agree that God has his own logic.
 
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sorry man, not buying it. this is pure cope. the source even says so, "APOLOGETICSpress"


that being said, I do partially agree here. im not saying that God is completely bad, im saying that his character is complex. you can read my earlier comment to see what I think about it:


to be clear, we have differing opinions but we both agree that God has his own logic.
I really don't see how that's "cope". Back then, people constantly fought, killed and enslaved each other to gain resources and land. If the Israelites didn't do what they did, they would have been killed and subjugated themselves. And they often were as they themselves repeatedly disobeyed God.

It's important to understand the context behind God's word, otherwise, we have people misinterpreting certain verses and using them to steer people away from God.
 
I really don't see how that's "cope". Back then, people constantly fought, killed and enslaved each other to gain resources and land. If the Israelites didn't do what they did, they would have been killed and subjugated themselves. And they often were as they themselves repeatedly disobeyed God.

It's important to understand the context behind God's word, otherwise, we have people misinterpreting certain verses and using them to steer people away from God.
these kind of exegeses only make sense to people that already believe the way you do, they're not convincing to people that dont share your particular religious beliefs. the page you linked was full of the authors extra-biblical suppositions (copes) to explain away the negativity of those verses. the following is an excerpt from the article:
Complaining about Jehovah’s order to destroy innocent children is a vain gesture when one realizes that the children were spared an even worse fate of being reared as slaves under the domination of sin. Instead of having to endure the scourge of a life of immorality and wickedness, these innocents were ushered early into the bliss of Paradise
im presuming youre against abortion, so logically speaking wouldnt it be just to support abortion to prevent people from even being born in this sinful age? im applying the same logic as the article you linked me earlier. why not just send everyone to heaven by aborting everyone? that would be the correct thing to do according to the authors logic.
 
Raised with the bare minimum of catholic beliefs and dropped my faith in the pope and his circle but would it be bad to say that I think Jesus was a mortal in life but divine after he died?
It merits some exploration. As the second person of the Godhead, the Logos, Jesus's divine nature is eternal. No beginning or end. But the incarnate person had both divine and human natures, and was mortal with respect to his human nature. That nature died and was resurrected--it did not stay in the grave--and taken up to heaven (literally or metaphorically). In that act, human nature was reconciled with God. "He became like us so that we may become like him."
 
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It's always struck me that this is simply a reaction to a really immaterial critique. Why does evil exist? Because existence isn't perfect, only God is. Sorry, you can't be as God. Getting further into the weeds than that brings you out of what religion in general and Christianity in particular is crucial for. Religion distills the wisdom inherent in God's creation into narratives so that us narrative bound mortals can navigate that creation.
That’s theology for you, trying to explain God using rational tools.

Basically, if God created us able to ask, why not ask? The question arises from the definition of God as an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent “thing”. He can do everything and he loves his creatures aka us. However, he (God) also allows such things as wars, death, and suffering which doesn't look like "love" at all. If he is omnipotent, knows the future, and loves us, why allow it? Why not just make people perfect and let them live in peace? The existence of those things may bring the definition of God itself under question that’s why it has been a massive sperg since Augustine (btw the guy seemed to get quite depressed later in his life, at least according to his texts, because it all pointed at predestination).

There could be multiple answers which are:

1) God is not as perfect as we believe him to be (or maybe our definition of "perfect" is fucked). Does it make any religion redundant? Idk.
2) We don't know God's endgame (kinda official position of the Catholic church afaik) aka everything he does is for the best. However, it again raises the Q - what can be the endgame?
3) God doesn't love everyone equally - here comes predestination (predestination also works with “strategy” point)
 
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these kind of exegeses only make sense to people that already believe the way you do, they're not convincing to people that dont share your particular religious beliefs. the page you linked was full of the authors extra-biblical suppositions (copes) to explain away the negativity of those verses. the following is an excerpt from the article:

im presuming youre against abortion, so logically speaking wouldnt it be just to support abortion to prevent people from even being born in this sinful age? im applying the same logic as the article you linked me earlier. why not just send everyone to heaven by aborting everyone? that would be the correct thing to do according to the authors logic.
It's not excuses. It's God's word. The way we see things is different to how God sees things. We are sinful by nature and many of us harden our hearts to him. And thus, we are punished accordingly. Like how a father punishes and cuts off his grown child.

Abortion is a sin. But it's not the same thing as described here. The reason why we don't have everyone have abortions is that God has called us to be fruitful and multiply. To love others as ourselves. Even when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and got thrown out of Eden, he still loved and cared for them and they went on to populate the Earth. We are called to have an abundant and fulfilling life here on Earth and spread it to those who don't have a relationship with God. To help save as many people as we can. Killing ourselves and unborn children is actively disobeying him and disserving ourselves.

I used to be like you and had my own worldly ideas of what God is like. As well as have pointless theory crafting based on what the world says. But the truth of the matter is, the only way you'll truly know him is to follow the Bible and seek others who do the same. And not just the parts that you personally agree with, but all of it.
 
to paraphrase the beliefs of the gnostic christians:

"all of existence is in the mind of God, this is all a dream"

the implications of this are that God wishes to fully experience everything that can be experienced*, the highs and the lows, the good and the bad etc. reality is all about duality, being able to savor all experiences through the presence of their opposites. evil exists because every good story needs an antagonist, only in this way can you truly appreciate the good.
Which gnostic school are you talking about? This surly ain't anything Irenaeus wrote about or anything they found in Nag Hammadi. This sounds way more New Age than any "real" "gnostic" schools.

For the "real' "gnostics" like Valentinians and Sethians the physical world is imperfect and created by an ignorant, jealous, and bastard "god." It's Sophia (Wisdom)'s bastard son, who she bore without permission/participation of Perfection/Fullness, who is her partner. This is where the demiurge (creator, Old Testament god) comes in, world bad because creator bad, but there's good stuffs because Sophia took pity on us and breathed into us her divine spirit. It's no where near what you are describing, and for the gnostics the duality was front and centre. Physical world bad, wisdom (about Jesus and Sophia) good. There are also evidence that there were "Gnostics" who didnt have a Platonic or Neoplatonic vision of the structure of the universe, and didn't write about the demiurge, Sophia etc. But even for them it was clear physical world bad, Spiritual world as revealed by Jesus good. We also don't know if they don't believe in the evil demiurge, maybe they just didn't write about it, or they wrote about it but the manuscript is lost after 2k years.

"Gnosticism" is just an umbrella term for the early Christian sects that didn't make it mainstream, and whom believed gnosis--knowledge saves. This knowledge is not generic knowledge of the divine etc, but very Platonic detailed picture of the levels and structure of the universe. Paired aeons etc. There are some shared themes of the evil imperfect demiurge, Sophia, etc, but by no means it's one school of thought and practice that "Anglicanism" or "Catholicism" are. Sorry to break it to you but NO TRUE GNOSTIC believed in the dreams universe experiencing itself like you said.

Now here's my take on the gnostics:
Saint Augustine used to a Manichean, which wasn't totally accepted as gnostic "gnostic," but pretty much as close as you can get. I used to buy more into the gnostic notion of creator demiurge bad, sophia and jesus good, because it seemed like yes the world is evil. This solves the whole issues of Theodicy. But as Saint Paul revealed Jesus is Lord and the Spirit has concrete dominion over the physical world. It's not just an empty epithet, the Spirit had real control over Paul and turned his world upside down. Paul used to persecute and stone Christians, and since Jesus talked to him in the desert, Paul completely turned around and became you know, Paul. It was like the order of a King. Unlike like the decree of an earthly ruler, it was impossible for Paul to disobey the order of Jesus. The doctrines of the gnostics also don't build up. It's against modern sentiments to speak of one True Faith, but I'd imagine Catholicism and Orthodoxy come closer to it than any of the gnostics schools.

As to predestination, I personally think it's less to do with intellectually theorizing, but comes from experience and observation of the theologian. It can be argued Jesus hinted at this with the parable of the sower, but he doesn't explain how come some fell behind the rock but some into good soil. The distinction seems to be real to him, though.
I think it is very easy to understand how one comes to believe predestination is a real phenomenon. Like I mentioned before, Paul never in his life imagined he would be the founding figure of Christianity, before Jesus spoke to him en route to Damascus. His faith and conversion had nothing to do with any of his personal traits or aspirations, but was mandated by God. It is also plain to see all around us that some people are just not going to get it. Even if we go back to the Middle Ages I'd imagine some people are more spiritually gifted and receptive to Christianity, while for others it was just following the custom and societal norm. It is easier to accept the idea of predestination as a description of reality, rather than a theological dogma. I'm rather reluctant to assume God's design behind all of this, I'm not confident about how much of God and His nature we can infer from the observation of predestination. It is also retarded to doubt and reject God because one personally believes "uwu its so mean to have only some predestined."

Couldn't have said it better than Paul himself:
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
 
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@Sissyagamben this is what I wrote:
to paraphrase the beliefs of the gnostic christians:

"all of existence is in the mind of God, this is all a dream"
I was paraphrasing what they believed for brevity. im following the valentinians btw

For the "real' "gnostics" like Valentinians and Sethians the physical world is imperfect and created by an ignorant, jealous, and bastard "god."...
the problem here is that you dont understand the message of the valentinians. you just described the literal mythology but dont grasp the actual, underlying philosophy of it. this is why you didnt recognize the paraphrased version of what I described.

first of all, remember that the valentinians were a platonically based sect, thus they were basing their beliefs around the theory of forms. the demiurge is a reference to the world of matter, Jesus comes from the world of forms (the pleroma).

the world of forms is analogous to the monad, the world of matter to the dyad. the monad is the oneness, the fullness, which experiences itself through an externality, which is the dyad. Sophia and the demiurge are the dyad, Sophia is what falls away/emanates from the true God and the pleroma (the monad), Christ is what brings the fallen creation back to the monad/the return

But as Saint Paul revealed Jesus is Lord and the Spirit has concrete dominion over the physical world. It's not just an empty epithet, the Spirit had real control over Paul and turned his world upside down
it seems like youre not aware of the valentinian exegeses of the epistles of the apostle paul. he was speaking in coded language btw, which was a common thing for spiritual movements back then

Sorry to break it to you but NO TRUE GNOSTIC believed in the dreams universe experiencing itself like you said.
its clear that you only have a literal understanding of the valentinian theology and havent done a deep dive nor do you understand the actual underlying philosophy beneath their mythology. you shouldnt be talking so condescending to me.

It's not excuses. It's God's word. The way we see things is different to how God sees things. We are sinful by nature and many of us harden our hearts to him. And thus, we are punished accordingly. Like how a father punishes and cuts off his grown child.

Abortion is a sin. But it's not the same thing as described here. The reason why we don't have everyone have abortions is that God has called us to be fruitful and multiply. To love others as ourselves. Even when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and got thrown out of Eden, he still loved and cared for them and they went on to populate the Earth. We are called to have an abundant and fulfilling life here on Earth and spread it to those who don't have a relationship with God. To help save as many people as we can. Killing ourselves and unborn children is actively disobeying him and disserving ourselves.

I used to be like you and had my own worldly ideas of what God is like. As well as have pointless theory crafting based on what the world says. But the truth of the matter is, the only way you'll truly know him is to follow the Bible and seek others who do the same. And not just the parts that you personally agree with, but all of it.
murder is also a sin. so killing innocent children is ok when God tells you to do it?
 
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God loves all of His children, even those who make to question His work. For when St. Peter meets you at the pearly gates he gives all men trials to overcome the sins of their past.
 
@Abyssal Bulwark - There are three points from your list you forgot to or didn't highlight for some theological reason:

Unique amongst politicians/noticeably different from those who came before him.
Well, there's never been a Jewish president.

Politically rises from a sub-national leadership position.
Many of our presidents start as governors or lower ranking officals.

Will be irreligious/have a different religion than his forebears (or lack thereof).
If a faith changes over the centuries that's kind of like having a different faith than your forebears. Judaism has changed a great deal over millennia. Most Jews are secular anyway so that's two omens in one.

Satan does not know when the Rapture/subsequent Tribulation will be, only God does as per scripture. Because of this, Satan has always had AN antichrist candidate picked out somewhere in the world in every era in case the time comes.
A fascinating thought. Then I should've said "could be" instead of "will be" in my first post and been less prideful.
 
the world of forms is analogous to the monad, the world of matter to the dyad. the monad is the oneness, the fullness, which experiences itself through an externality, which is the dyad. Sophia and the demiurge are the dyad, Sophia is what falls away/emanates from the true God and the pleroma (the monad), Christ is what brings the fallen creation back to the monad/the return
The Valentinians definitely were heavily influenced by Greek thoughts, especially Platonism and Pythagoreanism. But your idea of Forms=Monad=Pleroma, Matter=Dyad=Sophia is plainly mistaken.
First of all the Valentinian texts found in Nag Hammadi show a slightly different theology compared to Irenaeus' Great Account.
But let's start with Irenaeus' account:
According to him, the Valentinians believed the first principles were Ineffable (male) and Silence (female). This pair produced Parent (male) and Truth (female). They then produced four more paired aeons which formed the Ogdoad. The Ogdaod are the paired aeons of Human, Church, Life, and Logos with the four aforementioned paired aeon. These four (human/church, life/word) produced 22 other paired aeons, and together the 30 are technically all in Pleroma (Fullness). But there is a limit placed between the Ineffable/Silence+Parent/Truth and the rest, as well as a limit between the rest of the rest and Achamoth (the Mother). It's one of the last in the set of pairs produced by Human Being/Church. This Mother is responsible of Christ and the demiurge, but Irenaeus does not call it Sophia. So no, in Irenaeus' account, the proper pleroma within the limits contains 30-4-4-1=21 aeons, it is not the Monad, and it is not even the highest "forms", which are in the Ineffable.\
From the horse's mouth:
He maintained that there is a certain Dyad (twofold being), who is inexpressible by any name, of whom one part should be called Arrhetus (unspeakable), and the other Sige (silence). But of this Dyad a second was produced, one part of whom he names Pater, and the other Aletheia. From this Tetrad, again, arose Logos and Zoe, Anthropos and Ecclesia. These constitute the primary Ogdoad. He next states that from Log os and Zoe ten powers were produced, as we have before mentioned. But from Anthropos and Ecclesia proceeded twelve, one of which separating from the rest, and falling from its original condition, produced the rest of the universe....Christ also was not produced from the Æons within the Pleroma, but was brought forth by the mother who had been excluded from it, in virtue of her remembrance of better things, but not without a kind of shadow.

Now for the Monad and Dyad you are talking about, I think it can most closely be related to the Valentinian text found in Nag Hammadi, A Valentinian Exposition. Here it mentions Monad, which is the Father, and it is the Ineffable (male) that dwells in Silence. It's a Monad because it is not paired, and there is no primary Dyad. Dyad means paired aeons, and the Father produced the Dyad and Tetrads. Sophia has her pair, which this text identify as Desire, and she gave birth without her pair's consent. So no, the demiurge is for sure not a dyad with Sophia.
No matter which account you take, the cosmology of Valentinians are much more complex than the og platonic Matter vs. Form. Matter is not even the issue here, because when the Son descends to fix Sophia's mistake he has to make her "form-less seeds" to be proper creation. He then ascends back into pleroma to form the "forms" in the Platonic sense which the lower creation is based on. The world of "forms" for our world is created by the Son to fix Sophia's mistakes, it is not analogous to the Monad, who is the Father that produced the Son. The issue with Sophia's bastard creation is not that is has matter, but that it only has substance but no form. Ancient medical theory believed the mother contributes to the substance of offspring, while the father contributes to the form. Sophia gave birth without Desire, and thus the creation has no proper form. That's where the Son comes in.

I understand your train of thought, but even if you take a simplistic view one has to view the Dyad as belonging to the realm of Platonic "forms."

Evil in either forms of Valentinianism I mentioned is not the result of it being part of the Monad, or the primary pair of Ineffable/Silence. Or any of the aeons they gave birth to. All that are in the Pleroma are good, and evil in this world are caused by Sophia being silly and not properly giving birth. I don't understand where the "Monad experiencing both the good and bad" can come in
They did believe realizing this world is shit is the key to salvation, but definitely not in the way you described. It's all shit because Sophia fucked up, not because God is both good and evil or whatever. Either version of Valentinianism believes Sophia's repentance and punishment are appropriate. Neither believes it's good to be bad.
 
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5) Do you think Christianity should be centralized or not? Do Christians need a Pope or a Patriarch?
This is a very interesting question. If the central authority was truly good and holy then yes, certainly. But what we really see is that any institution built and operated by man is open to corruption. Just look at the current western churches going hell for leather down the path of LGBT promotion. So that argues for a degree of decentralisation. But on the other hand too much decentralisation shatters and fragments and creates individual heresies.
The church if its centralised must be constantly on guard against degeneration. It used to be, it’s not now
This brings me to another thing I’ve been thinking this week: the source of the physical documentation that keeps the church correct in earthly institutions is the bible. Corruption of the language of it and deliberately subversive interpretations of it are increasing. One thing I was pondering this week is the passage from Corinthians 13:4-8- love is kind, etc. it’s the classical wedding reading, mainly driven by Hollywood using It in scenes of weddings.
current year progs read this as ‘love’ meaning as in ‘the feeling of being in love’ . They then create this ‘love is love ’ idea with the bait and switch when what they mean is lust. But in thevKJV and Rheims -Doay (yes yes, my point is older translations) the word used is charity. Agapé or however it’s pronounce in Greek.
So the end result is all these liberal pastors quoting scripture to ‘prove’ that love is love. When really, that’s not quite what the passage means. It means charity. And even our use of the word charity these days doesn’t mean what it does in the bible. Maybe a centralised church needs regular refreshment, or a rabid adherence to original starting conditions.
I’m rambling anyway. None of these are easy questions.
 
This is a very interesting question. If the central authority was truly good and holy then yes, certainly. But what we really see is that any institution built and operated by man is open to corruption. Just look at the current western churches going hell for leather down the path of LGBT promotion. So that argues for a degree of decentralisation. But on the other hand too much decentralisation shatters and fragments and creates individual heresies.
The church if its centralised must be constantly on guard against degeneration. It used to be, it’s not now
This brings me to another thing I’ve been thinking this week: the source of the physical documentation that keeps the church correct in earthly institutions is the bible. Corruption of the language of it and deliberately subversive interpretations of it are increasing. One thing I was pondering this week is the passage from Corinthians 13:4-8- love is kind, etc. it’s the classical wedding reading, mainly driven by Hollywood using It in scenes of weddings.
current year progs read this as ‘love’ meaning as in ‘the feeling of being in love’ . They then create this ‘love is love ’ idea with the bait and switch when what they mean is lust. But in thevKJV and Rheims -Doay (yes yes, my point is older translations) the word used is charity. Agapé or however it’s pronounce in Greek.
So the end result is all these liberal pastors quoting scripture to ‘prove’ that love is love. When really, that’s not quite what the passage means. It means charity. And even our use of the word charity these days doesn’t mean what it does in the bible. Maybe a centralised church needs regular refreshment, or a rabid adherence to original starting conditions.
I’m rambling anyway. None of these are easy questions.
You are right, there are no easy questions. The centralized church is something very ancient by definition conservative. Adapting to a changing environment can be very hard, and some argue that it needs to adapt at all. My take - yes it does if it wants to survive. I have two arguments for that:

1) We have Islam which stopped its spiritual and philosophic development since the "ban" on faisafa aka philosophy. All progress that the Islamic world made happened with faisafa on. Once it was gone, Islam stopped contributing to civilization. Most Islamic states are well-established shitholes. Christianity, on the other hand, allowed philosophical (and theological, as its essential part) to flourish which gave us Renaissance and enabled social and scientific progress. Christian states are mostly OK states.

2) Demographics. Old people die, and new people are born. Regardless if we like zoomers or not, they are the next generation. The West becomes increasingly non-religious. I doubt that it becomes strongly atheistic since I would describe it more as "spiritual". The centralized church needs something to appeal to those new generations who have totally different values but I have no idea how.

Edit: I am nigga who doesn't do grammar
 
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