Johan Schmidt
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The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers
- Thread starter RichardMongler
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So to be clear, you believe 2-3 million Jews were housed in German occupied Russia, and the vast majority of them survived to liberation -- necessarily the case in order for the total death toll to be not more than a few hundred thousand as you say (Rapechu had most of them or "millions" dying)
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- Apr 9, 2022
I believe you claim that revisionists assert that. You believe this in order to say that to the extent evidence for such people can't be found they must have been murdered in the camps because you believe that the weight of evidence of all kinds points to that. Necessarily therefore you carefully avoid admitting that they were not killed in the camps or even talking about the reality of the camps lest someone create a wedge to that admission. Thus you refuse to even quote me in full. Do we agree?
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- Mar 30, 2023
...why does that read like you're dancing around a very significant point?
yep, I thought mrolonzo was willing to engage with my questions (one at a time), but it seems like he is more interested in going on tangents and putting words in my mouth "We've established and we both agree that mass killing did not occur in the camps"
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- Apr 9, 2022
Because I am indeed dancing around it for Chuggers benefit. Don't make the mistake of thinking we haven't went through this before. We have.
"In the past you stated there was some evidence of resettlement, so in this case can you des
cribe (with witness or documentary evidence) what happened to some of the Jews during their resettlement in German occupied USSR?"
Jack Ratz was born in Riga in 1927. In May 1943 he was sent to Lenta, a labor camp some 40 km north-east of Riga, where some 500 Jews worked[192]:
“After two months, four hundred Jews were left in Lenta, all Latvians. After a few months, a new transport arrived, but the newcomers were not Latvian. They were German, Czechoslovakian, Austrian, and Polish Jews. Some of the foreign Jews were from the Riga ghetto; the Polish Jews had come straight from Poland. Lenta now had a mixed Jewish population.”[193]
@mrolonzo, you're skipping ahead, but yup the best evidence of mass resettlement and internment of many hundreds of thousands of people (including children elderly and other non-employable Jews -- the majority according to sources) in German occupied USSR is Jews being sent to tiny forced labor camps. You did it.
History Speaks
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Can you explain to me how a 16 year old guy working at a forced labor camp contradicts the mainstream Holocaust story?
This example (of an able bodied Jewish teenager sent to a slave labor camp) is completely non-responsive to our argument that millions of Jews disappeared without explanation in the Nazi camps,
I mean, how completely silly of an example for Kues to provide. If being sent to a slave labor camp is to be redefined as "resettlement" then slave laborers at Auschwitz were also "resettled."
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- Apr 9, 2022
Guess you didn't read the post. Sad. But nice to see you back. Suppose you must be monitoring the thread for an opening huh HS?
Do you still communicate with revisionists these days?
Kues's aims are not to show evidence of non-working Jews being housed en masse in the East but to demonstrate that some Jews were deported east (not gassed in Poland), and that maybe some Jews who should have been gassed there (Dutch Jews) made it to the East
In doing so incidentally he shows the revisionist hand when it comes to this topic.
The witness lineup:
#1 (the star witness) is Kruk who hears a rumor of Dutch Jews in Lithuania, but later confirms they were killed and only their furniture got there
#2 sees belongings of Dutch Jews rolling into Lithuania for weeks on end and says they were killed
#3 talks very vaguely of Jews from different countries coming to Minsk but that the rumors of people being sent East to work is a deception
#4 talks of sorting the belongings of Jews from the West who were "shot or gassed"
#5 talks of a death camp in Latvia where Jews from all over were sent
#6 talks about a transport arriving in Lithuania who were all shot. No one is sure, but they might have been French
#7 was a Jewish slave laborer in Lithuanaia who notes some fellow prisoners were Jews from Holland
#8 talks of Jews from Holland being killed in Latvia
#9 is Ratz (see above)
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- Apr 9, 2022
No jews at all were gassed in Poland. That's already demonstrated from numerous angles. Gassing is a complete fiction.
"...Jews sent to the “extermination camps” and allegedly gassed there were in fact deloused and then sent away, the vast majority of them to the occupied eastern territories. The camps therefore actually functioned as transit camps. The transit camp hypothesis is in perfect harmony with documented National Socialist Jewish policy as expressed in official and internal reports, documents on the Jewish transports, and even in classified communications between leading SS members."
"3.3.15. Kalmen Linkimer
Another minor testimony concerning transports to Latvia is the diary of Kalmen Linkimer, a Jewish schoolteacher from Liepaja (Libau) who spent most of the second half of the war hiding in a cellar together with ten other Jews. In his diary entry from 10 June 1944, we read:The use of the expression "all over Europe" certainly implies transports to Latvia of Jews from countries other than just Germany, Austria and the Protectorate. Unfortunately, Linkimer does not bring up the subject elsewhere in his diary."
The holocaust conspiracy theory is just stupid, both Chugger and History Speaks already implicitly admit this. Which is why they can't defend it.
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This is wartime rumors from an uninformed person, basically the weakest evidence possible. And on top of that they're rumors of Jews being killed, not interned somewhere.
If this is some of your strongest evidence for mass resettlement, I'd say your case is DOA
History Speaks
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- Jun 22, 2021
Zo, I'm curious as to why you think Hitler's own allies (Mussolini, Antonescu, and Horthy) believed the Jews were being exterminated if this was a dumb conspiracy theory. After all, Hitler's allies had no propaganda interest in attacking him, and also were in a good position (better than you or Mike Enoch, I daresay) to ascertain Hitler's policies and intentions.
For example, the Hungarian Regent Horthy Horthy believed the Jews were being exterminated and said so to his colleagues. He declared at the Crown Council meeting on 19 March 1944 (the minutes of the meeting are available) that Hitler was furious at him for not allowing the Jews to be sent to German camps and exterminated:
Regarding your invocation of the term "conspiracy theory": what does this term mean in your view? Surely it is not simply the allegation that a group of people such as a government secretly conspired to do something (in this case, it would be a "conspiracy theory" to suggest the Soviets massacred the Poles at Katyn and falsely blamed the Germans, which is obviously ridiculous). A better definition of a conspiracy theory is the allegation, made without evidence, that a group of people of people such as a government secretly conspired to do something.
So for example your belief that the Holocaust was a hoax is a conspiracy theory, since there is no evidence (no witnesses, documents, etc) that the Allies planned to frame the Germans for genocide. I mean, can you describe in more detail (with evidence) how you believe this "hoax" happened? Who was 'in on it'?
For example, the Hungarian Regent Horthy Horthy believed the Jews were being exterminated and said so to his colleagues. He declared at the Crown Council meeting on 19 March 1944 (the minutes of the meeting are available) that Hitler was furious at him for not allowing the Jews to be sent to German camps and exterminated:
Regarding your invocation of the term "conspiracy theory": what does this term mean in your view? Surely it is not simply the allegation that a group of people such as a government secretly conspired to do something (in this case, it would be a "conspiracy theory" to suggest the Soviets massacred the Poles at Katyn and falsely blamed the Germans, which is obviously ridiculous). A better definition of a conspiracy theory is the allegation, made without evidence, that a group of people of people such as a government secretly conspired to do something.
So for example your belief that the Holocaust was a hoax is a conspiracy theory, since there is no evidence (no witnesses, documents, etc) that the Allies planned to frame the Germans for genocide. I mean, can you describe in more detail (with evidence) how you believe this "hoax" happened? Who was 'in on it'?
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How convenient, a definition that serves your interests. Conspiracies need not be grandiose: 'People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the publick, or in some contrivance to raise prices’. – Adam Smith. Yes, people in power conspire together to advance their economic and political interests, a very banal evil, a tale as old as time.
The conspiracy is to use the Holocaust to unduly influence politics, and you're part of it. You write about Jewish genocide by Europeans, and you do it for money. You won't write about Coptic genocide by Muslims, who are your blood relations. You'll barely even mention Muslims. You're as ridiculous as a Korean arguing the Armenian genocide—they're not your people, and it wasn't your war.
Why should anyone listen to a professional apologist rehearse lectures on the plight of a people not even his. How can anyone trust a person who doesn't stand up for his own blood? Your loyalty is to money and fame. You don't care about your relatives enough to mention Coptic persecution and genocide, so how can anyone trust you? You put money over blood. You're not leading a crusade. You're taking white people's tax money to call white people racists. You're an overfed grifter, a turncoat against the West which sheltered your refugee shitskin mother. Learn some gratitude, Cockerill. The West took you in, blood traitor.
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- Apr 9, 2022
Basically the jew confirms arrivals which accords with hard evidence. She then talks of murders that don't. So she's seen one thing and heard rumours about the other. This is common.
Basically people hear rumours, even the nazis heard rumours and propaganda.
As for conspiracy theories, it's simply that a theory was built on rumours and silly self serving stories and helped along by war propaganda against germans of long precedent. Re Katyn, its not a theory, it's confirmed as hard fact.
Conspiracy theories don't operate without evidence. They rely on it. But to the extent that it's true is the extent that the theory relies on best practices and hard evidence rather than partial or misleading evidence. As for allies planning to frame etc etc, the false information was rife early in the war. They simply took it seriously when most convenient. It's not something beyond the scope of government as history shows.
The Tall Man
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- Aug 4, 2022
Demokrácia was a partisan propaganda outlet, the name gives it away "Demokrácia".
I will ignore that I cannot find "Demokrácia 5 august 1945" online to check.
I will be nice and assume there are other sources that collaborate the assertions of that propaganda rag.
Horthy believing the wartime rumors could mean he wanted to believe it or he wasn't bright enough to see through it, this is assuming the partisan propaganda outlet isn't putting words in Horthy's mouth.
The best case scenario for you is that this story is hearsay.
let's just conveniently ignore that the OSS had a little presentation with shrunken heads and human skin lampshades, that was just an innocent little mistake.
And let's ignore the post war construction of gas chambers in Dachau by the burgers, that was just an honest mistake while renovating the camp.
Let's ignore all the wartime rumors created by the OSS talking about gas chambers.
Are you retarded?
There is more than enough evidence plus you have a very good motive. Their wartime propaganda reason that they had to save Poland was void since they had no intention to help Poland fight the soviet occupiers. They shifted the propaganda and claimed they fought the war to free the poor Jews from the most horrible torture and extermination. This was convenient in many ways since the allies decided to loot Germany of all it's stealable resources and making the Germans into demons means that they were in no position to complain against being robbed naked.
History Speaks
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- Jun 22, 2021
The Dachau gas chamber was built by the Nazis (we have documentary proof of this). Although the Dachau gas chamber was not used, thousands of Dachau inmates were sent to Hartheim Castle (the "euthanasia" facility) and gassed there.
The OSS did not "create" the gas chamber narrative. That's an image board meme. The exterminations were first brought to public attention by the Polish Government-in-Exile.
Horthy's statement regarding Hitler's policy is not "hearsay" but based on personal conversations with Hitler and other German high officials. For example on Hitler literally told him on 17 April 1943 that the Polish Jews "had to perish" if they could not work.
You have zero evidence of a conspiracy; all you have are investigative mistakes (many of which aren't even mistakes, although some were) which you then use to infer your conspiracy theory. Pathetic that you don't have a single witness to this conspiracy or document directly referring to it.
Can you even describe this "hoax" in any specific detail? Who knew about it? (Does Biden still know about it? Did FDR? Did Wilson?) When did the Allies decide to "frame" the Germans?
The OSS did not "create" the gas chamber narrative. That's an image board meme. The exterminations were first brought to public attention by the Polish Government-in-Exile.
Horthy's statement regarding Hitler's policy is not "hearsay" but based on personal conversations with Hitler and other German high officials. For example on Hitler literally told him on 17 April 1943 that the Polish Jews "had to perish" if they could not work.
You have zero evidence of a conspiracy; all you have are investigative mistakes (many of which aren't even mistakes, although some were) which you then use to infer your conspiracy theory. Pathetic that you don't have a single witness to this conspiracy or document directly referring to it.
Can you even describe this "hoax" in any specific detail? Who knew about it? (Does Biden still know about it? Did FDR? Did Wilson?) When did the Allies decide to "frame" the Germans?
Bonesjones
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- Jan 27, 2021
So they built a gas chamber to murder jews, that they didn't murder but organized their release if they emigrated? How evil!
Hey look another self own, they built a gas chamber and didn't use it, instead they shipped them some place else to kill them. Totally believable. Sure we could have just shot them or hung them or any other thing you do to kill prisoners in a prison camp, instead we are evil, so we ship them to a secret murder castle so no one knows.
See they are just responsible for its widespread knowledge and common parlance, they didn't invent it. FACT CHECKED: YOUVE BEEN DEBUNKED
I just pointed out the conspiracy in your own post. We have billions of documents and witnesses. The spread of propaganda by military intelligence to give moral justification to a world war is the definition of a conspiracy. Just because you are too dumb to know what words mean and how to use them isn't our problem.
We've done so in great explicit detail. The allies framed the losers of the war for crimes to justify their own actions to their own citizens. This is done using the top political, military, media, and academic minds. They establish a narrative, push the facts they want to be true, downplay the inconvenient ones, depose anyone against it on a personal level or have them killed. You see the exact same thing happen with Covid 80 years later. Every American president knows the holocaust is fake but are slaves to a political system ruled by jews through soft and hard political and monetary power, not including the direct blackmail that constantly goes on. They directly decided to frame Germany for invading Poland. You know the whole start of the war.
The Tall Man
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- Aug 4, 2022
I like how you skipped the Skin Lampshades the human soap and the shrunken heads set up by the OSS.
citation needed, If you could provide "Demokrácia 5 august 1945", I would be contempt.
And if you find me another source that collaborates this statement I would accept this as true.
Horthy only infers that him following Hitler's orders closer would lead to a massacre of Jews.
Weird why did they send a member of parliament to Buchenwald, if they wanted to show them a death camp?
Why did the OSS set up the fake shrunken heads skin lampshades and human soap display?
What do you think the OSS did during and after the War?
Why did the Nazis build a non functioning faux gas chamber?
History Speaks
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A source for Hitler's remark on 17 April 1943 to Horthy is attached below. See the highlighted part (the footnote) Since you're most likely a monolingual Burger LARPing as a Nazi, you can use Yandex image translate. Not only did Hitler say that the Jews "had to perish" if they could not work, but the German Foreign Minister Ribbentrop also told Horthy in the same meeting that "the Jews must be exterminated or brought to concentration camps. There was no other possibility."
Don't you notice the assymetry in evidence? I have a statement from Hitler saying 'if the JEws could not work they had to perish,' and an avalance of similar statements from Nazi leaders referring to the extermination of the Jews.
Conversely, you have zero objective evidence for your "hoax" allegation so you have to infer it from errors made by investigators and prosecutors in a trial, which happen all the time. (Incidentally, the errors you mentioned were not part of the final judgment at Nuremberg; nobody was "hanged" at Nuremberg for human soap, etc.).
There is no rational reason other than bias to infer "hoax" from such errors, particularly given that the Allies corrected them as they went. (e.g. at the First Belsen Trial, which the British conducted alone, at least one British government lawyer spoke of alleged gas chambers at Belsen; but the prosecution ultimately concluded that this charge was false and there were no gas chambers there. An odd concession for 'hoaxsters' bent on smearing the Germans to make!)
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Don't you notice the assymetry in evidence? I have a statement from Hitler saying 'if the JEws could not work they had to perish,' and an avalance of similar statements from Nazi leaders referring to the extermination of the Jews.
Conversely, you have zero objective evidence for your "hoax" allegation so you have to infer it from errors made by investigators and prosecutors in a trial, which happen all the time. (Incidentally, the errors you mentioned were not part of the final judgment at Nuremberg; nobody was "hanged" at Nuremberg for human soap, etc.).
There is no rational reason other than bias to infer "hoax" from such errors, particularly given that the Allies corrected them as they went. (e.g. at the First Belsen Trial, which the British conducted alone, at least one British government lawyer spoke of alleged gas chambers at Belsen; but the prosecution ultimately concluded that this charge was false and there were no gas chambers there. An odd concession for 'hoaxsters' bent on smearing the Germans to make!)
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