Argue about the capabilities and techs of Jet fighters, and how everyone is everyone else's sock account

[SIMIΔN]

Pilots are a hundred times more valuable than airframes.

If significant numbers of NATO soldiers 'volunteer' for Ukraine, then I assume many NATO pilots would "volunteer" too.

They will because of ability to fit dumb bombs with JDAMs give them the ability to pop up and release the munitions and then use the F-16's superior thrust to weight ratio to hit the deck again and go under radar envelope before enemy missiles get chance to go pitbull or their surface radar has chance to guide them in

It's posts like this that make this thread the best. We aren't afraid to realistically look at both sides.

 

[WelperHelper99]

The newest fighter Taiwan has F-CK-1 and it's over thirty years old and is basically just a F-16 nock off

I am taking this only because clearly you don't understand variants. They have F16-V's.

Top of the line upgrades, to existing frames, where they tear it down, inspect every part, replace what's needed, add new shit like radars that can detect stealth aircraft, along with integrating new payloads. Theyve also recieved new ones. Their ENTIRE air force is like this. Highly modified and suited to their particular situation. They have Mirage 2000 fighters as interceptors, F-16s and F-CK-1 fighters as the core, and a few F-5's left as dedicated recon, which is invaluable. That's JUST fighters. They also have AWACS, ASW P-3 Orions, and MANY in house built trainers which could pe pushed into combat if needed.

 

[prolapsed_cranium]

Not really. Startup checklist is the hardest sequence to learn when flying most modern fly by wire aircraft. What takes a long time to learn are the various weapons systems and targeting pods the planes have along with complex maneuvers like dogfighting. With modern fly by wire, like F-16, the plane does 99% of work and will prevent you from making stick inputs that would put aircraft into stall. You could teach someone just to fly an F-16 who already has minimal previous flight experience, i.e. they have basic flight training, in a single afternoon if you wanted to. Weapons systems range from 30-90 days of training to reach proficiency per system but if you are just releasing preprogramed ordnance via GPS or handing off to a AWACS then you could teach someone to do it in a week or two max. Dog fighting is something that is pointless to try and teach Ukrainian pilots due to the amount of time to reach proficiency.

You'd need to teach them SEAD if you want to give them any real chance to survive if you want them running tactical support. Russian SAM coverage extends well beyond the front lines

That's one of the hardest things to develop, capability wise

 

[Makhno]

You'd need to teach them SEAD if you want to give them any real chance to survive if you want them running tactical support. Russian SAM coverage extends well beyond the front lines

That's one of the hardest things to develop, capability wise

No you wouldn't, they are flying over their own air defense grid and releasing weapons 40 miles or more from enemy lines. They fly along the deck and only pop up for a period of less than 2 minutes to release their weapons at high enough speed/altitude to reach target based upon what computer calculates then immediately return to deck and thus break radar contact with any missiles that enemy AA launched from significant range. By the time a Russian S-400, which is also 50 miles or more from front line locks on to aircraft and launches you are already halfway or more through maneuver. You will be back on deck before Russian missile arrives and because you are over your own air defense network Russian fighters are also not a threat in terms of dogfighting. You only need to do SEAD for strikes when you are crossing into enemy lines doing penetration strikes. Also the AGM 88 is a literal retard proof weapon that can be handed off from pilot to the missile's own sensors or an AWACS as soon as it is launched so really all the pilot needs to learn to be is a missile sled who memorizes the release/arming procedures.

 

[make_it_so]

Lol no one is going to give the Ukie's any f16's. The linked story say's nothing about that happening. The linked story is just lots of "could"'s and "if"'s. Giving them f16's is still off the table.

Everyone knows if you give them f16's you might as well just save the shipping and burn them right where they sit now. In 6 months the Russian AA systems are going to be so dug in anything sent near the line will being going with a one way ticket.
The only thing that is going to happen is the rest of the NATO nations are going to keep dumping their old soviet era MIG's on the Ukie's and then turn around and beg for f16 gibs from Uncle Sam.

Plus given how the Ukrainians are falling for the most basic of ambush tactics, any F-16s we give to them are inevitably going to wind up being wasted.

 

[SIMIΔN]

You'd need to teach them SEAD if you want to give them any real chance to survive if you want them running tactical support. Russian SAM coverage extends well beyond the front lines

The American 'volunteers' would already be experienced in it.
Fuck, I didn't expect WW3 to start in 2014

 

[Makhno]

Lol no one is going to give the Ukie's any f16's. The linked story say's nothing about that happening. The linked story is just lots of "could"'s and "if"'s. Giving them f16's is still off the table.

Everyone knows if you give them f16's you might as well just save the shipping and burn them right where they sit now. In 6 months the Russian AA systems are going to be so dug in anything sent near the line will being going with a one way ticket.
The only thing that is going to happen is the rest of the NATO nations are going to keep dumping their old soviet era MIG's on the Ukie's and then turn around and beg for f16 gibs from Uncle Sam.

This isn't WW2 FFS why do you people believe aircraft have to even cross their own lines to strike the enemy today? Also, no Russian AA systems are not going to be "so dug in" because that is fucking retarded and how you loose you hundred million $ S-300/400 to SEAD. Air defense networks are constantly repositioned and are designed to be mobile. Also no military in world is putting their most advanced AA systems anywhere near the front line because that makes them exponentially easier for enemy to strike with limited returns. The F-16 hit the shelves in 1970's it too is old as fuck, when talking about previous blocks, and is the most numerous non soviet modern fighter airframe in existence. They have already run out of working Migs, with exception of handful of nations who won't sell them, and cannot get parts to fix the others. If they want the GAYOPS to continue they are going to have to give the piglets fighter jets eventually. Either Washington ends the war or the piglets get the jets simple as.

The American 'volunteers' would already be experienced in it.
Fuck, I didn't expect WW3 to start in 2014

SEAD is not complicated they have no idea what they are talking about. All the piglet pilots would have to learn is the weapon release procedures for AGM-88, from 80-160 miles away from target, which would then do rest of work for them. Also no one needs to do strikes over enemy lines aside from CAS with invention of modern standoff munitions.

 

[HodgePodgeRogerDodger]

I'm not the one who made the baseless claim that Han, not "Ham", Chinese are geocoding all other people in China like a fucking loudmouthed retard.

They will because of ability to fit dumb bombs with JDAMs give them the ability to pop up and release the munitions and then use the F-16's superior thrust to weight ratio to hit the deck again and go under radar envelope before enemy missiles get chance to go pitbull or their surface radar has chance to guide them in. Moreover like everything else we just give them they won't care about burning them up attrition wise under the assumption if they win we will just give them more shit in case you are wondering why Russians are not risking their aircraft in similar ways to deploy glide bombs. Not to mention the F-16's have native integration for the AGM-88 instead of the nigg-rig-mig job they use currently. F-16's even a few blocks behind in generation would provide Ukraine with a significant tactical boost; not enough for them to win most likely but enough to continue stalemate.

>h-he’s lying the Han don’t displace demographics and fuck over Mongolians and Southern Chinese Miniorites

Aside from continuing the practice of keeping some “Manchu” around, they’ll attack the lifestyles of anyone falling outside of what they want. It‘s not just the the Reindeer herders for having hand guns. Hmong, Miao, Chinese Jews, and other groups basically have to deal with an increasingly retarded Central Gov’t.

You can hate both American and pig suck Han Chinese elites, you colossal faggot.

 

[Makhno]

>h-he’s lying the Han don’t displace demographics and fuck over Mongolians and Southern Chinese Miniorites

Aside from continuing the practice of keeping some “Manchu” around, they’ll attack the lifestyles of anyone falling outside of what they want. It‘s not just the the Reindeer herders for having hand guns. Hmong, Miao, Chinese Jews, and other groups basically have to deal with an increasingly retarded Central Gov’t.

You can hate both American and pig suck Han Chinese elites, you colossal faggot.

Take your off topic confirmation biased Dunning Kruger understanding of the world somewhere else outside the thread for the Special Military Operation.

 

[Jump]

This isn't WW2 FFS why do you people believe aircraft have to even cross their own lines to strike the enemy today?

Spretre you need to chill the fuck out. I said NEAR, not over.

Also, no Russian AA systems are not going to be "so dug in" because that is fucking retarded and how you loose you hundred million $ S-300/400 to SEAD. Air defense networks are constantly repositioned and are designed to be mobile. Also no military in world is putting their most advanced AA systems anywhere near the front line because that makes them exponentially easier for enemy to strike with limited returns

The line isn't moving. In 6 months they will have all everything positioned ,or able to move around where they want it to keep that line fortified from anything. If you wan't to get all autistic and take "dug in" as literally digging in the ground then ok.

 

[Makhno]

Spretre you need to chill the fuck out. I said NEAR, not over.


The line isn't moving. In 6 months they will have all everything positioned ,or able to move around where they want it to keep that line fortified from anything. If you wan't to get all autistic and take "dug in" as literally digging in the ground then ok.

Your reading comprehension must not be great. You cannot fortify a defensive line against standoff munitions FFS ROFL. If piglets get jets then it will force the Russians to advance hastily to counter them or to burn up their own airframes attempting to stop behavior. If piglets get jets and full standoff munition arsenal it will force Russians to advance line another 40-60 miles from current one if they want to hold their current lines otherwise they will just be bombed to shit. With stationary air-defense systems and an American AWACS for targeting you are just going to essentially feed your entire AA grid to Ukraine within weeks. You don't even have to bother to get a radar lock or do SEAD just program the GPS into the glide bomb and goodbye pre-positioned AA. There is no stationary positioning of mid range AA systems or positioning of any long range AA systems along the front line of a modern peer to peer battlefield simple as. While the current Russian lines can defend against an advance adequately they would easily be weakened by standoff munitions at a relative low attrition cost to piglets for ROI. If piglets get jets in mass Russians would have to completely change their strategy and likely go on advance. Literally the only reason the piglets don't have planes yet is because they are still haggling and trying to get them based in Poland but certain NATO members are pushing against it for obvious reasons. If they get the planes and base them inside Ukraine the Russians will destroy most of them on ground with missile strikes. Ukraine can maintain a limited number of planes in underground hangers/mobile runways but not more than 40-80 aircraft.

 

[HodgePodgeRogerDodger]

Take your off topic confirmation biased Dunning Kruger understanding of the world somewhere else outside the thread for the Special Military Operation.

Stop spamming the thread with your shit takes and go back to Reddit.

 

[Midwit]

If piglets get jets and full standoff munition arsenal it will force Russians to advance line

This also presupposes that the Russians are somehow unable to see their approach and act accordingly, say by launching their own fighters or just launching SAMs when they approach since they would obviously be designed to counter the exact things you're talking about. Also, the Han Chinese are probably the single most repulsive people in history and the only reason they're still tolerated is because they lucked out on starting location and their history is full of ludicrous tradegies that are the subjects of endless mockery by spergs all over the planet. A man has a mental breakdown after failing the Imperial Examinations, 20-30 million casualties.

 

[prolapsed_cranium]

No you wouldn't, they are flying over their own air defense grid and releasing weapons 40 miles or more from enemy lines. They fly along the deck and only pop up for a period of less than 2 minutes to release their weapons at high enough speed/altitude to reach target based upon what computer calculates then immediately return to deck and thus break radar contact with any missiles that enemy AA launched from significant range. By the time a Russian S-400, which is also 50 miles or more from front line locks on to aircraft and launches you are already halfway or more through maneuver. You will be back on deck before Russian missile arrives and because you are over your own air defense network Russian fighters are also not a threat in terms of dogfighting. You only need to do SEAD for strikes when you are crossing into enemy lines doing penetration strikes. Also the AGM 88 is a literal retard proof weapon that can be handed off from pilot to the missile's own sensors or an AWACS as soon as it is launched so really all the pilot needs to learn to be is a missile sled who memorizes the release/arming procedures.

The AFU won't knock them all out.

The AFU is all out of SAMs and the Russians are increasing air sorties. The AFU needs to stop them and the AFU's vaunted counter offensive needs tac support.

They'd have to do wild weasel shit, but this whole thing is truly academic at this point.

 

[Makhno]

This also presupposes that the Russians are somehow unable to see their approach and act accordingly, say by launching their own fighters or just launching SAMs when they approach since they would obviously be designed to counter the exact things you're talking about. Also, the Han Chinese are probably the single most repulsive people in history and the only reason they're still tolerated is because they lucked out on starting location and their history is full of ludicrous tradegies that are the subjects of endless mockery by spergs all over the planet. A man has a mental breakdown after failing the Imperial Examinations, 20-30 million casualties.

You ignorant fuck the Ukrainians have their own networked air defense grid supported by an American AWACS constantly on station, which is why not a single Russian aircraft is conducting penetration strikes this entire war. All Russian airstrikes have been limited to standoff and CAS right along front line. The Russians cannot launch their own fucking fighters over Ukrainian lines where they will get shot down. Short/med AA missiles launched from fighters do not have long ranges against maneuvering targets 20-50 miles max on the shit like R-23 20mi, R-27 50mi, and long range missiles like R-37s are only good for targets that maintain altitude for more than a few minutes. R-37's can prevent Ukraine from doing active SEAD, significant CAS, and AA but they cannot stop short standoff munition runs where the plane's radar signature is above the Earth's curvature for a few minutes or less in a way that would justify pissing a finite supply of your most advanced missiles away. Heat seeking AA missiles like R-60/R-73 are all used from within 5-20 miles so they aren't even close to relevancy. You also cannot just launch a bunch of SAMs like a fucking retard and hope like a game of Battleship one of their active radars picks something up. SAMs can also be easily notched and defeated from a distance by any competent pilot over their own lines. You would go through your supply of SAMs in a fucking week acting like that.

 

[Midwit]

All Russian airstrikes have been limited to standoff and CAS right along front line.

So you're saying that the only thing giving the hohols more aircraft will achive is giving them the capability to make strikes that will only marginally effect the greater strategic effort? At that point you might as well just invest in artillery shells because they're much cheaper and are actually useful for the boots on the ground.

 

[Makhno]

The AFU won't knock them all out.

The AFU is all out of SAMs and the Russians are increasing air sorties. The AFU needs to stop them and the AFU's vaunted counter offensive needs tac support.

They'd have to do wild weasel shit, but this whole thing is truly academic at this point.

Source - the PSYOP the military wanted leaked on discord FFS. Ukraine is not out of SAMs. Wild Weasel isn't something that has been relevant since the 1991 invasion of Iraq you academic simpleton. The current AGM-88 is almost never guided using pilot input and the F-16CJ/DJ is not only single seat but the current strategy is to use PETs or preemptive targeting shots of AGM-88s to get the enemy AA radars to go active not to "wild weasel" which is to use the aircraft as bait itself. Once an AGM-88 goes magnum it literally is entirely self guided and is just as capable of hitting your own shit as the enemies so there is no need for the pilot to babysit it like previous SEAD weapon systems. The last actual "wild weasel" SEAD platform in NATO active service was the Tornado ECR that retired in 2019.

So you're saying that the only thing giving the hohols more aircraft will achive is giving them the capability to make strikes that will only marginally effect the greater strategic effort? At that point you might as well just invest in artillery shells because they're much cheaper and are actually useful for the boots on the ground.

No what I'm saying is that giving them aircraft is going to force the Russians to have to begin their advance and you always lose more men attacking than defending. The uses of standoff munitions in a significant number will make the Russian fortified lines indefensible in their current configuration and susceptible to Ukrainian breakthrough. Russia would have to form additional layers of defense with the first layer being much more reliant on soft targets like infantry who can constantly reposition multiple times a day to make standoff weapons less effective at degrading lines. Also realize that to Washington who funds all this shit their version of winning is more dead Russians and more destroyed Russian shit. Also ROFL at artillery shells as Russian counter battery fire is pretty good plus even 203mm Malka shells are not really effective against hardened targets in comparison to a 2000lb bunker buster. Because you don't have to fire a bomb through a gun with high pressures you can pack much more explosives into bombs per square inch.

Stop spamming the thread with your shit takes and go back to Reddit.

I fought in Iraq and Syria what is your experience with warfare? I have over 15 years and counting as part of the strategic defense community. I currently work in DC within an organization directly involved in the day to day aspects of this conflict; you literally have no fucking clue about what you are saying beyond supposition along with all the other armchair fuckwits who keep attempting to tell someone who actually knows what they are talking about from personal experience they are wrong. Anyone who has spent time in military around weapon systems I described will corroborate my statements. Anyone who wants to bother to look into the massive amounts of literature that exist to corroborate what I'm saying are welcome to do so but I'm not wasting the effort anymore when any attempt to educate you people will just result in the janny segmenting it to an off topic thread. If you want to autistically discover just how little you know about radar, SAMs, or aircraft by all means please do but I'm not taking the time to parse out in detail how stupid you are. I'm simply leaving useful information for anyone who actually wants to have an educated opinion on this conflict or warfare in general.

 

[HodgePodgeRogerDodger]

I fought in Iraq and Syria what is your experience with warfare? I have over 15 years and counting as part of the strategic defense community. I currently work in DC within an organization directly involved in the day to day aspects of this conflict; you literally have no fucking clue about what you are saying beyond supposition along with all the other armchair fuckwits who keep attempting to tell someone who actually knows what they are talking about from personal experience they are wrong. Anyone who has spent time in military around weapon systems I described will corroborate my statements. Anyone who wants to bother to look into the massive amounts of literature that exist to corroborate what I'm saying are welcome to do so but I'm not wasting the effort anymore when any attempt to educate you people will just result in the janny segmenting it to an off topic thread. If you want to autistically discover just how little you know about radar, SAMs, or aircraft by all means please do but I'm not taking the time to parse out in detail how stupid you are. I'm simply leaving useful information for anyone who actually wants to have an educated opinion on this conflict or warfare in general.

Larping as a Fed will not get you respect here. Either dox yourself or fuck off, you faggot.

 

[Fatniggo1488]

I fought in Iraq and Syria what is your experience with warfare? I have over 15 years and counting as part of the strategic defense community. I currently work in DC within an organization directly involved in the day to day aspects of this conflict; you literally have no fucking clue about what you are saying beyond supposition along with all the other armchair fuckwits who keep attempting to tell someone who actually knows what they are talking about from personal experience they are wrong. Anyone who has spent time in military around weapon systems I described will corroborate my statements. Anyone who wants to bother to look into the massive amounts of literature that exist to corroborate what I'm saying are welcome to do so but I'm not wasting the effort anymore when any attempt to educate you people will just result in the janny segmenting it to an off topic thread. If you want to autistically discover just how little you know about radar, SAMs, or aircraft by all means please do but I'm not taking the time to parse out in detail how stupid you are. I'm simply leaving useful information for anyone who actually wants to have an educated opinion on this conflict or warfare in general.

Oh shit nigga, you about to do a War Thunder here or something?

 

[Makhno]

Oh shit nigga, you about to do a War Thunder here or something?

ROFL never fren and I always double check before I post shit that it can be found with a google search first not only for myself but so that it isn't something so esoteric someone cannot easily look into it themselves or that is already part of standard bullshit RUMIT in media.

I’m sorry, but he’s a boy kissing faggot who larps as a Glowie. He’s very easy to piss off and this is an Internet retard forum.

That is because I'm old enough to remember a time before every Dunning Kruger clown with confirmation bias thought they had a right to so easily assert their second or third hand opinions as facts because they weren't looking at another person who could make them feel like a fool for doing it to their face; before social media existed. I refuse to tolerate a certain level of inane speculative discourse that other people do because it not only wastes my time but the time of every person who actually wants to attempt to form an educated opinion in an age of prolific manipulation of media.