Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[mindlessobserver]

Japan and South Korea have both long been rumored to have an Israeli style "Turn Key" nuclear program. They don't have any functional Nuclear weapons nor have they ever tested any. But they have the primary components already developed for rapid assembly should the need ever arise. The US may or may not have quietly aided said programs back in the day.

All those Nuclear Reactors in Japan and South Korea are not just for clean zero carbon energy.

 

[Exterminatus]

Here's a odd question. But the insanity of the modern world knows no limits. If a NATO head of State is found to have been assassinated by Putin operatives. Or a direct attempt on their life was made, how would that impact NATO Article V? Curious minds want to know. Seeing as Erdogan seems to have suddenly and alarmingly taken ill after meeting with a Russian Representative. The word poison is being thrown around. (Sadly he does not appear to be that sick and will probably make it).

We activated Article 5 after 9/11, now obviously that wasn't the Ruskies but you could argue that triggering Article 5 doesn't actually take enemy combatants crossing your sovereign border and occupying land that's recognized as part of your nation. In that hypothetical whatever country in question, I think could reasonably argue that that doing so would be justified if they had undeniable conclusive evidence that the Russians did it, either directly with an assassin or through some puppet.

Anyone who been paying attention will know United States already betrayed Ukraine with Obama giving Putin the go ahead as long he waited until the election was over. And Libya who have scraped their nuclear weapon program for United States not skull fucking al-Qaddafi and protection. Only for Obama to betrayed al-Qaddafi and Libya by aiding France and western Europe in overthrowing him and turning Libya into a hellhole.

This, in my opinion, was another factor in Putin attacking Ukraine when he did. He saw Biden very much as an extension of Obama and his policies of saying words but refusing to back it up with action. With Trump it was a different ball game, as Syria learned after fucking around and finding out. He knew Trump would back up what he said and with his initial attack on Ukraine he was almost proven right on Biden, he was ready to fold and let Russia take Ukraine and go take another nap in Delaware.

He just didn't forsee how badly things would get bungled with bad logistics and tough Ukrainian resistance.

 

[Snekposter]

This, in my opinion, was another factor in Putin attacking Ukraine when he did. He saw Biden very much as an extension of Obama and his policies of saying words but refusing to back it up with action. With Trump it was a different ball game, as Syria learned after fucking around and finding out. He knew Trump would back up what he said and with his initial attack on Ukraine he was almost proven right on Biden, he was ready to fold and let Russia take Ukraine and go take another nap in Delaware.

He just didn't forsee how badly things would get bungled with bad logistics and tough Ukrainian resistance.

That's the most horrifying thing about this invasion. It was a well-calculated gamble banking on an accurate read of the West's willingness to shit itself and do nothing so long as they could plausibly claim there was nothing they could have done to stop Putin. There's no doubt that had things gone according to plan we'd be seeing mass repression in Ukraine and the West throwing some ineffectual sanctions on Russia to make it look like they're doing something as they all turn a blind eye to keep the fuel coming. Of course, the one thing Putin didn't take into consideration (and arguably never could due to its sheer scale) for his grand plan to take Ukraine was his nation's total incompetence. But he bungled it, Zelensky stayed and demanded the West help, and then Western leadership was trapped by their own rhetoric into providing aid. And now at this point with Russia showing itself to be such a paper tiger compared to what it boasted about there's surprisingly large public support for seeing Ukraine kick their teeth in as their just desserts for making empty boasts about RUSSIA STRONK.

 

[Ghostse]

Ukraine would never have been able to afford it. It would also have made them an international pariah. Its easy to look back now in retrospect, but at the time it was simply not feasible. Its possible the US and Russia would have worked together to forcibly disarm Ukraine of Nukes in that scenario.

The reason for the big push on Ukie disarmament was two fold.
First, they were trying to limit the number of failing Soviet states with nukes to keep them out of the hands of jihadis just on general principal. Given they sold cruise missles to the Iranians that might not have been a bad play.
Second, at the time Ukraine was independent but solidly Russia's bitch. There was concern Russia would use Ukraine as a proxy. I.E. Ukraine nukes German (either tit-for-tat or as a prelude to Russian invasion) and thus could say "Oh you can't strike us! We didn't launch any nukes!"

This, in my opinion, was another factor in Putin attacking Ukraine when he did. He saw Biden very much as an extension of Obama and his policies of saying words but refusing to back it up with action. With Trump it was a different ball game, as Syria learned after fucking around and finding out. He knew Trump would back up what he said and with his initial attack on Ukraine he was almost proven right on Biden, he was ready to fold and let Russia take Ukraine and go take another nap in Delaware.

He just didn't forsee how badly things would get bungled with bad logistics and tough Ukrainian resistance.

For some reason, Putin an Xi were well-behaved good boys when Twitter Criminal Donald Trump was president. Its almost like not being a spineless little bitchmade works against bullies.

And to be fair to Biden, NO ONE except the Brits and the Estonians saw that Ukraine would actually fight back successfully fall into the masterful feint that was sacrificing 20% of your armor and your elite airborne units to blow up some houses near Kiev.

 

[mindlessobserver]

And to be fair to Biden, NO ONE except the Brits and the Estonians saw that Ukraine would actually fight back successfully fall into the masterful feint that was sacrificing 20% of your armor and your elite airborne units to blow up some houses near Kiev.

If the Battle of Hostomel does not go into the annals of "Epic Battles of History", then it should. That fight was a masterclass in superior generalship, Napoleonic luck and shear fucking grit on the part of Ukraine. There had better be a movie about it one day, told from the eyes of a humble airport porter thrown into absolute bedlam.

*Edit*, and if Wikipedo is to be believed, both the "on the spot" commanders were killed in action. Sad for their families, but for history that is fucking based.

 

[Glowie]

rip of this supposed Russian war cartoon


View attachment 5088114

Why the fuck is an "anti western country" using fucking soy marvel toons?

any more info about the validity of this?

source: https://youtu.be/I9g5Zs3Lzbc

What the hell did I Just witness? This is infantile compared to Soviet propaganda which contain nuance and had effort put to it.


like this

Ignoring the fact that communist leadership were multi millionaires themselves, this propaganda worked

 

[GoPro]

Yes, if the West abandons Ukraine, things will probably go to a guerilla partisan war instead and maybe complete occupation. If such a thing would happen, I would not be surprised to see Poland leave NATO or just enter the war without NATO consent, because allowing Russia to annex an entire nation inside Europe is intolerable to most of us.

If that were to happen, Poland would stay in NATO but join nuclear weapons sharing program. More extreme scenario would be Poland pulling a French move of secretly developing its own nukes. Rest of NATO would let it happen or even help like they did when French stopped pretending that their nuclear research was for energy only.

The only people I really trust on this are the Polish. They have the most to lose by Ukraine losing and nothing to gain by making shit up about it. They're putting their money where their mouth is both literally and by taking in refugees. Isn't it weird every populist right-winger has loved every single thing Poland's done up until the war?

The 180 degree turn on Poland is a good example of mindless contrarianism plaguing many people on the right. The moment mainstream media narrative on Poland shifted to almost uniformly favorable, many right wingers changed their stance to "Poland bad" despite Poland doing 90% of what many supposed conservatives claim the want their countries to do. They prefer Russia, literally the most pozzed and diverse country in Europe, with one of the most centralized, overbearing federal governments. Things got to the point where conservatives are now repeating talking points that leftists relied on for decades.
We are getting dangerously close to media being able to use reverse psychology to con a segment of conservatives into supporting leftist causes.

Ukraine's "Nazi regime" was not "denazified", it has only grown stronger, and its people have forged stronger national identity in the face of common enemy. And NATO? Expanding my dude.
Russia tried to rape Ukraine and broke its dick as a result, that's not winning.

What's worse for Russia, it became the villain in Ukraine's national consciousness. That aligns Ukrainian national identity and interests with that of Czechia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania. Foreign policy of all of these countries revolves on keeping Russia in check. Russia now has another Poland (but slightly bigger, more aggressive, and closer to Moscow) to worry about for at least several decades.

the USSR let themselves be sucker-punched by a hilariously obvious German buildup, Eastern Europe joined in not because they liked the Germans but because they hated the Russians more, they were almost entirely dependent on Western aid to keep the men fed, their shells filled with actual explosives and the factories pumping out war machines, and perhaps most horrifyingly of all, that Zhukov was overrated as a general.

What's better, Germany was able to re-arm thanks to Russia's help. Russians helped Germans bypass the post-WWI limitations by selling raw materials to Germans and letting them hold secret military exercises in Russia. That coopeation did not stop even after Nazis climbed to power. All to give a middle finger to the West and to make some money. This backfired on Russia spectacularly.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Ukrainian Propaganda Music making some real bangers

It is with sadness I must report however, that my suspicions about the New York Times video are confirmed by this one.

Tune to 1:55. Its our old friend, broken guy cleaning blood off the door.

 

[Snekposter]

What's better, Germany was able to re-arm thanks to Russia's help. Russians helped Germans bypass the post-WWI limitations by selling raw materials to Germans and letting them hold secret military exercises in Russia. That coopeation did not stop even after Nazis climbed to power. All to give a middle finger to the West and to make some money. This backfired on Russia spectacularly.

Well, that wasn't necessarily part of the war itself, although given that there's evidence the USSR planned to let the Axis wear itself out against the West before swooping in to save the day (and coincidentally liberate Eastern Europe from their fascist regimes), you could include that in the list of Soviet missteps.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Well, that wasn't necessarily part of the war itself, although given that there's evidence the USSR planned to let the Axis wear itself out against the West before swooping in to save the day (and coincidentally liberate Eastern Europe from their fascist regimes), you could include that in the list of Soviet missteps.

Russia is not wrong in claiming that the soviet "liberation" of Hungary, Romania and Poland from "the Fascists'" is viewed with hatred. Its the major cognitive disconnect between the Cope Thread and this thread.

To the Cope Thread, pointing this artifact of history out, how Eastern Europe faught for the Nazi's against Russia is Proof, PROOF they are bad people that need to be under Moscows Boot. But those who TRULY understand, those who have not drunk the Kool Aid, know that the reason Romania, Hungary and Western Ukraine threw in with Germany was because as bad as the Nazi's were, the Soviets were even more horrible. And when you were forced to fight for a greater demon against actual lucifer, you pick a side. because that is all you can do.

I laugh every day at the utter confusion the Zigger thread has over why Eastern Europe tows the line with Washington DC so hard. Can't they see how evil and degenerate America is? Why they do this? I tried to point this out to them and was ignored, You see, Russia has the same issue now they had in 1942. Their neighbors hate them so much they would rather fight for Satan himself then give any authority to Russia, because Russia is a greater evil then Satan as far as they are concerned. As it was in the beginning, so shall it always be. apparently. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

Ukrainian Propaganda Music making some real bangers

It is with sadness I must report however, that my suspicions about the New York Times video are confirmed by this one.

Tune to 1:55. Its our old friend, broken guy cleaning blood off the door.

This is a good band, had some of their songs in my playlist since like high school

 

[Fanatical Pragmatist]

You all are trying to screen grab the types of helmets they drew on the Ukrainians and what color they bucket-fill tool'ed the Abrams, but I'm just stuck wondering what the fuck this panel is:

Looks like some Russelovitch Greyrkin shit

 

[Snekposter]

Russia is not wrong in claiming that the soviet "liberation" of Hungary, Romania and Poland from "the Fascists'" is viewed with hatred. Its the major cognitive disconnect between the Cope Thread and this thread.

To the Cope Thread, pointing this artifact of history out, how Eastern Europe faught for the Nazi's against Russia is Proof, PROOF they are bad people that need to be under Moscows Boot. But those who TRULY understand, those who have not drunk the Kool Aid, know that the reason Romania, Hungary and Western Ukraine threw in with Germany was because as bad as the Nazi's were, the Soviets were even more horrible. And when you were forced to fight for a greater demon against actual lucifer, you pick a side. because that is all you can do.

I laugh every day at the utter confusion the Zigger thread has over why Eastern Europe tows the line with Washington DC so hard. Can't they see how evil and degenerate America is? Why they do this? I tried to point this out to them and was ignored, You see, Russia has the same issue now they had in 1942. Their neighbors hate them so much they would rather fight for Satan himself then give any authority to Russia, because Russia is a greater evil then Satan as far as they are concerned. As it was in the beginning, so shall it always be. apparently. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small.

For the first part, I can't imagine why Romania would despise Russia.

As to the second part, to quote Churchill himself on matters of war and international politics, "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least give the Devil a favorable mention in the House of Commons."

 

[mindlessobserver]

This is a good band, had some of their songs in my playlist since like high school

When the dust is settled you need to write a book bro. It will be fascinating. You living in Russia, your brother in Ukraine. Backdropped by the most brutal war of the 21st century played out live on the internet as your countrymen are sent to the slaughter and laughter of thirsting Gods who also perversely delight in the suffering of the people they are fighting against. Your own personal horror played out as a slap fight for meaningless domestic political squabbles in a country you have never been too, but one whose position turn keys the fate of nations on its own mercurial whim.

And the only place you can vent is on a drama forum run by an expatriate international hobo engaged in an eternal war with international transsexuals in government, media and tech. While dodging users on that same forum attempting to get you arrested by the government for venting on the same forum.

I would read that book. Start taking notes.

 

[Snekposter]

When the dust is settled you need to write a book bro. It will be fascinating. You living in Russia, your brother in Ukraine. Backdropped by the most brutal war of the 21st century played out live on the internet as your countrymen are sent to the slaughter and laughter of thirsting Gods who also perversely delight in the suffering of the people they are fighting against. Your own personal horror played out as a slap fight for meaningless domestic political squabbles in a country you have never been too, but one whose position turn keys the fate of nations on its own mercurial whim.

And the only place you can vent is on a drama forum run by an expatriate international hobo engaged in an eternal war with international transsexuals in government, media and tech. While dodging users on that same forum attempting to get you arrested by the government for venting on the same forum.

I would read that book. Start taking notes.

I couldn't decide between Feels and Agree, so I settled on Winner.

 

[mindlessobserver]

I couldn't decide between Feels and Agree, so I settled on Winner.

Russians write good books.

 

[Snekposter]

Russians write good books.

My Search-Fu sucks and I can't find anything, but you just reminded me of that "Authors in <Blank>" meme. The French author will die for love, the American for freedom, the British for honor, and the Russian will just plain die.

Edit: took me a few tries but I found it:

And a different one:


If suffering breeds art, well the Russians have suffering in spades.

 

[Kendall Motor Oil]

They just want the power and everything else back. But your average American doesn't go around thinking about the Cold War all the time.

I don't think Americans see the country as the center of the world or want it to bully everyone. The mainstream media and twitter class warp an outsider's/terminally online person's view of the country's people. I have been told Russians do want the "glory days" of when they enveloped and russified people but I have little information on it. The average American and Russian view of the country's purpose and role in the world seem to differ, but, again, little information on the Russian side to go on.
A Russian I knew did say there is a culture present in Russia vaguely similar to the US' "Dixie" culture.

We are getting dangerously close to media being able to use reverse psychology to con a segment of conservatives into supporting leftist causes.

They are going to be the new boomercons endlessly sperging over the rage bait cycle and easily manipulated via contrarianism.

 

[CuzinEd]

The M60A3 at that time had been modernized with the absolute latest electronics, stabilizers, and a new gun though, leaving only the base hulls as 1960's components. Granted that meant the armor was more than a bit old, but, aside from that it was quite a serviceable design at least up to par with the latest T-72's. Keep in mind you've got a laser rangefinder, two-plane stabilizer, automatic fire control (originally introduced with the basic M60 in 1959!), and the M68E1 cannon could chuck sabots as good as or better than the Leo 2's 120mm could.

As if Japan going nuclear wasn't bad enough, doesn't Taiwan have some NPP's and more than enough know-how of their own? A joint Taiwan/Japan nuclear program would pretty much force the world (including China) to recognize Taiwan as an independent nation. Because it would either be that or go all-in with China's claims of them being a rogue province, and uh... nobody sane would want to pick a fight with a rogue province willing to use nukes to assert their independence, especially if they've got overt backing from Japan and covert backing from South Korea and almost certainly Australia. After all, if North Korea of all irrelevant shitholes can demand to be taken seriously on account of nukes and not immediately be laughed out of the room, what does that mean for Taiwan?

I didn't know the M60A3 was that new of an upgrade. I thought it was from the mid to late 80's. You play with a bog standard M60 in GHPC. It doesn't even have the laser range finder. It still uses the coincidence style range finder. It's still better than the T-55A . But not as good as the M60 with the laser range finder.

Russia is not wrong in claiming that the soviet "liberation" of Hungary, Romania and Poland from "the Fascists'" is viewed with hatred. Its the major cognitive disconnect between the Cope Thread and this thread.

To the Cope Thread, pointing this artifact of history out, how Eastern Europe faught for the Nazi's against Russia is Proof, PROOF they are bad people that need to be under Moscows Boot. But those who TRULY understand, those who have not drunk the Kool Aid, know that the reason Romania, Hungary and Western Ukraine threw in with Germany was because as bad as the Nazi's were, the Soviets were even more horrible. And when you were forced to fight for a greater demon against actual lucifer, you pick a side. because that is all you can do.

I laugh every day at the utter confusion the Zigger thread has over why Eastern Europe tows the line with Washington DC so hard. Can't they see how evil and degenerate America is? Why they do this? I tried to point this out to them and was ignored, You see, Russia has the same issue now they had in 1942. Their neighbors hate them so much they would rather fight for Satan himself then give any authority to Russia, because Russia is a greater evil then Satan as far as they are concerned. As it was in the beginning, so shall it always be. apparently. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small.

The Germans weren't that bad. That's just propaganda from the (((media))). The Soviets were terrible though.

Germans and Americans worked together to save horses from the Soviets. Not even horses were safe from the Soviet hordes.

 

[Snekposter]

I didn't know the M60A3 was that new of an upgrade. I thought it was from the mid to late 80's. You play with a bog standard M60 in GHPC. It doesn't even have the laser range finder. It still uses the coincidence style range finder. It's still better than the T-55A . But not as good as the M60 with the laser range finder.

The M60A3 first rolled off the lines in 1978, the M60A3 TTS (Tank Thermal Sight) version coming off the same lines not long after, and ongoing conversion of M60A1's to the M60A3 version.