Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

@Ghostse your line of thinking about IFVs and big guns got yeeted back in early WWII. As big guns is invaluable for dealing with groups of soft skins, armor, bunkers and so on. 20mm to 57mm is basically oversized armor piercing ice picks when engaging opposing infantry. Secondly tanks by their very existence alway supported infantry by engaging and destroying whatever is annoying them. Even the lightest IFVs still have some armor to protect against small arms fire and it been repeatedly shown sacrificing any and all armor for speed is borderline suiciding the crews when encountering any armed opposition.
 
Even the lightest IFVs still have some armor to protect against small arms fire and it been repeatedly shown sacrificing any and all armor for speed is borderline suiciding the crews when encountering any armed opposition.
See: BMP's getting opened up like tin cans by just about everything.
 
The problem is Putin's "Red Lines" were unreasonable. The USA and Europe may not go to war with Russia because they invaded a neighboring neutral state out of fear for nuclear escalation, but doing nothing also carries with it its own risks.
Putin's red lines are definitely unreasonable, probably for the reason of keeping the actual "red line" obscured. If you don't know where the enemy actually draws the line, you're more hesitant to push boundaries and will likely stop far shorter than if you knew where was safe to stop. It's probably why it took the US so long to send anything more substantial than a few HIMARS and even then we're still dragging our feet.

I'd wholeheartedly agree though that, while I understand why politicians are playing it safe, it's ultimately strategically important to push back against nuclear blackmail. Because as much as concentrolls kvetch about it being "destabilizing," curtailing to blackmail is ultimately moreso.
Western policy makers have been worried for decades now over the idea of "nuclear blackmail". Essentially, a revanchist power like North Korea or Iran gets Nuclear Weapons and then goes about acting on its Revanchist goals while threatening to use Nukes if anyone dares try and stop them.
It's funny with all the concerns about the Chinese, Pakistani, Korean, and Iranian nuclear programs, Russia was the one that drifted towards being a destabilizing rogue state. Probably should have been expected given their nuclear policy in the 90s, I guess.
 
I think everyone saying that looks like a dick on that one map needs to get their minds out of the gutter. That's clearly an E.T. finger and he is touching Russia and saying Oooouch.
Hey guys!

Finally niggered out the TOR limk I was using before was dead and jumped aboard the new one....now I gotta ask........you know i gotta fuckin ask.....

HAS BAKHMUT FALLEN YET?!

....huh it has? For realzies? No take-backzies? Pinky promizies?

Well shit after the best part of a year and sending so many men and manlets into the meat grinder so wretchedly we got a brand new fucking IRL soyjak out the deal View attachment 5132621 and literally and unironically dozens of failed attempts, russia finally managed to theoretically take a town smaller than Casper, Wyoming.

*footage unrelated*

Guess I will have to find a new stick to beat the nigger that is russia wi.....wait what the actual fuckWHY IS CHRIS'S DICK FORCING ITS WAY INTO THE RUSSY-BARBUSSY?!
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I am wondering what is happening in Bakhmut as well. I see vatniggers on other sites talking about victory and defeat. Have they gone from the "2 more weeks cope" straight to "we won"? lol

@Ghostse
Tanks would make pretty shitty IFV's. Soldiers can ride on the back of them a practice I don't even think is used anymore in combat situations. But they won't be protected. Not that an IFV is heavily armored. But they will be on the back of a tank in the open.

That sounds like the Iraqis from all the stories I have heard. lol
 
It's funny with all the concerns about the Chinese, Pakistani, Korean, and Iranian nuclear programs, Russia was the one that drifted towards being a destabilizing rogue state. Probably should have been expected given their nuclear policy in the 90s, I guess.
I would not say Russia is a "Rogue State" . A rogue state implies its a State not acting in its own best interests, which is fundamentally what the international order sets out to achieve. Albeit by making cooperation between the States preferable to antagonism. So in that context, Russia IS a Rogue State, but not in the sense its not without its goals. Russia has been very clear about its goals since 2008 when it bitch slapped Georgia. It wants a restoration of the pre-1990's Soviet Borders.

What Russia has NOT been clear about is just what price it is willing to pay to achieve those goals. To the point that to this very moment we have no clear idea just how many Russians have died in this war. Which is a problem. Especially since Putin keeps bringing up red lines, consequences and the implied threats of nuclear war. Game Theory requires CLARITY. The positions of all the involved parties need to be clear. The US and Europe have made their positions clear. No Nukes. No direct involvement. China and India have made their positions clear. No Nukes, we keep pretending this is a thing that will blow over and we continue to buy your oil and provide you with weapons.

Russia however has refused to make its position clear. They keep saying they will use Nukes to "Defend Russian Territory", while CONSTANTLY changing the definition of what constitutes Russian Territory. Russia did after all annex the city of Kherson in 2022. Putin signed it into law, and a few weeks later President Zelensky oversaw the flag raising of a foreign flag over the Russian City of Kherson after the Russian defenders were routed by the Ukrainian Army across the Dnieper.

Putin didn't use nukes then. Despite saying he would. This would be repeated across the Donbass as the UAF Pushed all the way across Kharkiv Oblast to the Kremina Line. No Nukes then either.

What IS Russian Territory according to Russia? This so called Red Line? And is Crimea even a part of it? Considering the failure of Russia to use nuclear weapons to protect the "russian citizens" of Kherson City from foreign conquest,. the Western Calculation now is, all bets are off. Restoration of Ukraine's 2014 borders and complete reversal of Putin's efforts for the last decade.

Will that cross Russia's Red Line? Doesn't matter. Russia made a threat and didn't back it up. The gloves are off now. Belgorod and Bryansk are off the table still, but Simferople and Sevastopol are not. Why are they not off the table? Because nobody knows where the Red Lines are. Russia has refused to be clear, and so the western powers have no choice but to make their OWN maximalist demands, and set their own "nuclear red lines". At which point its up to Russia to argue the point if it dares.
 
@Ghostse
Tanks would make pretty shitty IFV's. Soldiers can ride on the back of them a practice I don't even think is used anymore in combat situations. But they won't be protected. Not that an IFV is heavily armored. But they will be on the back of a tank in the open.
Well, I'd assumed he was talking about t-62 supporting infantry, as opposed to infantry riding in a t-62 (or on it, desant style. (which obviously has its own problems like less protection for them and it might not be compatible with ERA for obvious reasons.))

I suppose with enough modification you could get infantry in the tank by ripping out autoloaders/ammo stowage etc (israel has done this with the namer apc) but wouldn't that interfere with its role of providing fire support?

But in the end whatever use you propose for them it sounds like copium to me:
1. Whatever little use these vehicles have, the vatniks will take it and rub it in your face saying "but it coouuuld work, no?". If it was announced they were introducing BT-7s I get the vibes they'd be telling us about what great artillery tractors a BT-7 would make! On the flipside, they're implicitly acknowledging that they'd fail at any other role: anything a t-62 can do, a t-80bgtq+ (or whatever the fuck it was) can also do, and more. Think of it in a glass half-empty/half-full way.

2. Ideally shouldn't you be using a modern vehicle for whatever role it does? Prior to the war you had t-72, t-80, t-90. Is supporting the infantry not one of their possible roles? Is tanks supporting infantry not one of the tenets of "combined arms warfare"? Similarly, for artillery support purposes, t-72, t-80 and t-90 can be used, but also the dedicated msta-s. I would also assume modern optics/fire control systems/composite armor etc would make them better at those roles too.
 
Well, I'd assumed he was talking about t-62 supporting infantry, as opposed to infantry riding in a t-62 (or on it, desant style. (which obviously has its own problems like less protection for them and it might not be compatible with ERA for obvious reasons.))

I suppose with enough modification you could get infantry in the tank by ripping out autoloaders/ammo stowage etc (israel has done this with the namer apc) but wouldn't that interfere with its role of providing fire support?

But in the end whatever use you propose for them it sounds like copium to me:
1. Whatever little use these vehicles have, the vatniks will take it and rub it in your face saying "but it coouuuld work, no?". If it was announced they were introducing BT-7s I get the vibes they'd be telling us about what great artillery tractors a BT-7 would make! On the flipside, they're implicitly acknowledging that they'd fail at any other role: anything a t-62 can do, a t-80bgtq+ (or whatever the fuck it was) can also do, and more. Think of it in a glass half-empty/half-full way.

2. Ideally shouldn't you be using a modern vehicle for whatever role it does? Prior to the war you had t-72, t-80, t-90. Is supporting the infantry not one of their possible roles? Is tanks supporting infantry not one of the tenets of "combined arms warfare"? Similarly, for artillery support purposes, t-72, t-80 and t-90 can be used, but also the dedicated msta-s. I would also assume modern optics/fire control systems/composite armor etc would make them better at those roles too.
The main selling point of an IFV is that it can carry soldiers to a combat area. Then support them once they get there. They can also use it to get back out of the area. That's what separates an IFV from the earlier APC's. An APC was more like an armored car that would carry soldiers to a fight then leave. They wouldn't normally stay behind and support the infantry. An APC would be like a M113 or the BTR-60 70 and 80. I think the Russians started the IFV concept with the BMP-1. The M113 had a .50 cal machine gun mounted on it but it's not like having a 20-30mm cannon and some ATGM's. APC's would generally just drop soldiers off and leave.

Yes, a tank can support infantry. But it should be the other way around especially in urban combat zones. That's where the Russians screwed up in Chechnya and Ukraine. They didn't use infantry to support their tanks. They sent tanks in alone with no infantry to support them. But if they are going to make them ride around on the back of tanks they would probably be better off putting them in truck with some armor plates bolted on the sides. Kind of like the older BTR-40 and BTR-152.
 
@Ghostse
Tanks would make pretty shitty IFV's.
Merkava has entered the chat.

I've always wanted to see how those would do in a stand-up fight against equivalent armor, and it would've been wild if Israel had sent some to Ukraine. I imagine they'd probably do well in a shrapnel & rocket-rich place like Bakhmut, or an urban area like Kharkiv; but probably not so much in the forests of Kreminna, or wide open spaces of Zaphorizia.

Though it's not surprising the heebs haven't, since they already have their own live-fire testing at home, along with not wanting to ruin their tank's kd ratio. But for where & how it's intended to fight, Merkava is pretty solid and their active-kill system is no joke, so I wonder how it'd do ferrying squads into a place like Bakhmut; provided they could dodge the inevitable Russian artillery. Still, having a tank (with a fucking mortar onboard) as my ride would be preferable to even a Bradley, while not requiring any extra tanks for fire support.
Soldiers can ride on the back of them a practice I don't even think is used anymore in combat situations. But they won't be protected. Not that an IFV is heavily armored. But they will be on the back of a tank in the open.
It's still used by Russia & Ukraine, and pretty much anywhere with Soviet influences in their doctrine; look for images of tanks with infantry piled on them in South America, Pakistan, Pacific Rim shitholes. So we'll always have kino footage until they learn to button up.

But what I've noticed is that Ukraine has very much begun to largely ride inside their APCs (but on top in a pinch), while early in the war they largely rode on top; while Russians are still piling onto BMPs, and are still getting turned into giblets when drones & artillery show up. I expect it's as much a training thing as it is experience, and it's not like Russians have very many veterans who are making it back to teach new troops; and the ones who are probably didn't survive due to their skill.
 
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Y'all missing the part of Ukraine is also converting T-62. Either into armor recovery vehicles as AFU needs a fukton more of those. Or into heavy IFVs sidestepping the orphen 115mm cannon problem as Ukraine didn't had any T-62s prior to the current war. Ukraine T-62 IFV link
Picture is of a completed Algerian BMPT-12 similar to what Ukrainians are doing with theirs.
 

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@Pocket Dragoon
The Merkava can carry soldiers? I didn't know that. I knew about the mortar and the chains hanging under the turret bustle to stop ATGM's but I didn't know it could carry soldiers. I don't imagine it can carry many. I doubt the Israelis would give anything to Ukraine. They seem to want to stay neutral or something. I'm not saying they have to give Ukraine weapons. But they have their own issues and I doubt they would want to give up any of their stuff. Other than the Sherman they attached that 105mm gun with the big muzzle break to I don't know much about Israeli tanks.

I have seen people riding on tanks in the Eastern Europe and some second and third world countries. I don't think I ever saw any Americans riding around on tanks in Iraq or Afghanistan. At least not into combat. I know they might hop onto a tank for a means of transport in noncombat situations maybe. Most soldiers were ride on the top of the APC's because of mines. Like an M113 can only protect against small arms fire. It can't stop something like a 50. cal or 12.7mm. Maybe some shrapnel and that's about it. In Vietnam soldiers would ride on the top of the M113's. I heard they would sit on their helmets in helicopters. In pictures from the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan I saw Soviet soldiers riding around on the tops of BTR's and BMP's. I heard this was also because of mines and explosive devices buried in the roads by the Mujahideen. The BMP's had their gas tanks built into the doors in the back the infantry would enter and exit the vehicle from. So they would ride on the top in case the rear doors got hit.
 
Surprisingly, it seems like RVC is still in Grayvoron district. They acquired BTR-82A: But lost MaxxPro(information needs futher confirmation, but looks like a truth):
I have to say it warms my heart to see an MRAP with a Balkenkreuz allegedly attacking into Russia. Would like to see a larger element of them with some proper armor and then it'll be game on.

It doesn't look like a kill so hopefully its crew abandoned it for escape and evasion reasons.
 
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Surprisingly, it seems like RVC is still in Grayvoron district. They acquired BTR-82A: But lost MaxxPro(information needs futher confirmation, but looks like a truth):

The guys in these videos, according to Bellingcat, are well established to be Russian nationals, and part of the far right network Russia Volunteer Corps that has been operating from Ukraine and fighting against the the Crimea occupation.

Complex.

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The guys in these videos, according to Bellingcat, are well established to be Russian nationals, and part of the far right network Russia Volunteer Corps that has been operating from Ukraine and fighting against the the Crimea occupation.

Complex.

View attachment 5133621

I assume their actual right wingers aren't very happy with Putin completely smashing their ethnonationalist movements and only allowing RW politics in the frame defined by the Russian state, i.e. sucking up to a multicultural empire and cooming at the idea of denazifying and obliterating the national and ethnic identity of your neighbors.
 
I guess? It’s hard to know exactly what’s going on with these guys. I did watch a documentary a few years ago about them, but would like to hear it if anyone knows more.

I could believe they left Russia for ukraine due to being disaffected or maybe kicked out of their military. Then when Russia invaded Ukraine, they considered it their fight.

And right now they want to gain glory and popular support in ukraine by the daring raid against Russia. Which does seem pretty daring because they are a small team, won’t have any meaningful support and will be totally cut off and possibly very fucked once Russian army gets its ass into gear.

Alternative theory is that they are actually taking orders from Moscow all along in order to justify the “anti nazi” invasion, and now are used to escalate the conflict in some useful way.
This is not so far fetched, it was already proven that the FSB were embedding ex-ISIS fighters into the Ukrainian forces. And it would explain why these guys are willing to take on what should be a suicide mission if it were taken at face value.
 
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