System Shock Remake - aka "system shock appreciation thread"

[Mooger Meng]

Well, I don't have any nostalgia for the OG version. I picked the Enhanced Edition back up a last week after a previous aborted attempt (last year? Iunno) on account of not being able to figure out the controls, and after a bit of bumbling the fuck around it started to click this time. I just got finished with a nearly 13 hour run and I'm tired as fuck. Some off-the-cuff thoughts of the OG/Enhanced:

- Terrible/nonexistent hit feedback lead to a lot of restarts. Worst of it was on floor 7 before I found the res chamber, got real sick of getting sucker-punched from a darkened alcove, as well as the central block with all the goddamn enforcers. Fuck that noise.
- Melee probably worked well thanks to the lightsaber. Energy use is a small price to pay for unlimited powah!
- Energy guns were neat once I figured out how to use them more effectively.
- Flechette gun is useless after you're done with level 6 unless you don't want to waste good ammo on cameras.
- Not being able to res in Beta Grove when you can in the other two is kinda bullshit.
- Why the fuck do the Stun Gun and Riot Gun exist? At least the gas grenades are (theoretically) useful against mutants.
- I didn't realize you could climb up the cable-covered wall panels until after I'd gone into Reactor after level 4 or 5 while absolutely lost for how to proceed.
- Speaking of, I was just swimming in ammo by the time I got up to the last floor. I think that's normal if you're not being a retard?
- Got the plasma rifle and never used it lol, didn't want to burn more energy than I had to in the final part with the shield up the whole time.
- FUCKING EXPLODING ROOMBA MAZE goddamn I'm glad I kept a logic probe for that one.
- How the fuck are you supposed to know/guess where the earliest rad suit is? That location didn't make any goddamn sense.
- haha holy fuck the recoil on the skorpion is ridiculous
- Unrelated, the only good songs are level 6 and SHODAN's lair. Maybe the rest aren't awful if you change your MIDI instrument bank, but that would require giving a fuck.
- Single biggest gripe is the movement. Even without the boosters active you'll randomly hang and/or slide on floor geometry, bridges, and seemingly random shit. Manipulating items/inventory is a bit intuitive if you can get over the initial hurdle of dealing with it.

All told, now that I have a proper frame of reference, I'm looking forward to playing the remake down the line, especially having seen a video with some side-by-side comparisons of it and the Enhanced Edition. Aside from having a more conventional control scheme, it seems like it's got more of the desolate atmosphere that the good Bioshock games used.

 

[BrunoMattei]

Melee feels a bit jank, I think it has something to do with the differences between quick swings and full charge swings combined with there being more than one swing. Then the berserk patch makes it even weirder. It is all effective, hit registration is conveyed, but it all just feels weird.

I don't get the complaints about the melee. It's pretty simple: hold M1, get up to the thing's face, let go, whack. You have to get right in it's face. It's not that hard. No offense.

Anyone complaining about the melee please go play Witchaven for a bit and then get back to me if you still think the melee is bad in this.

 

[Cpt. Stud Beefpile]

Damn was that worth $50.

I played the Enhanced Edition when mouselook had JUST been patched in and we thought that was absolute god tier, best we were gonna get. Then this releases and...wow.

The lighting is a bit too bright and hinders the spookiness a bit, the bloom needs a setting slider, but that's all pretty small potatoes compared to the fact that this classic has a PROPER 3D HIRES REMAKE. I have a loooong list of DOS games that I wish would get the same and considering how the dev process went we are lucky that the thing even shipped at all.

 

[Evil Peter Griffin]

Whats next System Shock 2 remake with better balance skills and weapons?

 

[BrunoMattei]

Whats next System Shock 2 remake with better balance skills and weapons?

And better melee too.

 

[SleepingBull]

I don't get the complaints about the melee. It's pretty simple: hold M1, get up to the thing's face, let go, whack. You have to get right in it's face. It's not that hard. No offense.

Anyone complaining about the melee please go play Witchaven for a bit and then get back to me if you still think the melee is bad in this.

The complaints are about the lack of clarity in the impact point. When does the hit land, or more importantly: when will the hit land? It doesn't matter that it IS hitting and doing damage, the important thing is the feeling that it is doing so and doing so reliably and controllably. The issue is the comma between "let go" and "whack". Is that a 0.1 second comma? Is that a 0.3 second comma? Does that comma vary based on how long M1 was held? Does the comma differ when swinging left versus swinging right? Is there a reliable timing between letting go of M1 and the impact point? If there is, why hasn't it been quickly intuited?

The melee is functional on a level of "I let go of the mouse and then in short order there will be a damage zone in front of me for some window of time which will cause damage to entities within it once." Like you're casting a small short duration AoE that does a only a single tick of damage. Damage is applied, enemies die. It works. It works, but it does not feel right at all, therefore it is jank.

I loaded up the enhanced edition to check, and it has better melee than the remake by far. You click, there is a little 3 frame animation for the pipe swing, and within the first two enemies you have full certainty as to exactly nature of the whole system: The instant damage point(Literally, as soon as you click the damage goes off), the reliable reload time, and the feedback from a hit is incredibly solid. There is no doubt, there are no questions. By the third time you've swung the pipe the only questions left is how much the next type of cyborg you find is going to flinch from being whacked in the face with a pipe.

I get that they needed to redesign the system for numerous reasons. However, the result is jank because what they did come up with simply doesn't communicate the impact point reliably, and having varied timing hold and charge stuff in your melee system is not an excuse for that. Take a look at System Shock 2's Melee: It had holding and charging of melee attacks for either quick swings or full charged bashes and yet it still did a wonderful job of communicating exactly when the swing made contact with an enemy. There was a palpable thud of impact, and if you actually understood how to build your character a dead enemy in short order as well. Yeah... seriously mate, maybe revise your skill/attribute builds if you think SS2's melee sucks. It is on par with Deus Ex when you do it right, just a notch less spammy and more impactful.

 

[robobobo]

Shock 2 remains my favorite game of all time. Bioshock got real close, so does Prey, but they don't quite get there. And yes, a melee playthrough is viable on it, I've done it. If you aren't specced for melee, it is extremely weak and you should just keep a melee weapon around to whack on windows, cameras, eggs, and the occasional worm to save ammo, but a melee build handles well. Sleepingbull here has the right of it, there's a nebulous quality to when you click the button versus when you see the swing versus when something actually is hit in the Shock remake. Which is not the end of the world, most people will probably switch to ranged weapons ASAP in any event at least until they get the laser rapier, but I'd still like to see it be tweaked.

 

[M3xus]

Glad to see people singing its praises, this is one of the two games I planned to get this year. Played Enhanced Edition last year to prep myself, pretty hyped.

 

[BrunoMattei]

The complaints are about the lack of clarity in the impact point. When does the hit land, or more importantly: when will the hit land? It doesn't matter that it IS hitting and doing damage, the important thing is the feeling that it is doing so and doing so reliably and controllably. The issue is the comma between "let go" and "whack". Is that a 0.1 second comma? Is that a 0.3 second comma? Does that comma vary based on how long M1 was held? Does the comma differ when swinging left versus swinging right? Is there a reliable timing between letting go of M1 and the impact point? If there is, why hasn't it been quickly intuited?

I don't see it. It's pretty clear when and where it hits. When you hit the mutants you see a good dent in their flesh most of the time and I think a decapitation is pretty obvious that you made a direct hit.

I implore you sir, and I'm not trying to be a jerk, please play something like Witchaven and then get back to me if you still believe the melee is bad. I can hook you up with a copy of Witchaven. It's easy as shit to get because it's on GOG. I can show you the best source port to use. And I can tell if you've played it or not because I'm a sick fuck who has completed the game 3 times. Why 3 times? Because I'm a sick fuck.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

Hell, I can tell you Shock 2's melee isn't fun either, and I loved that game. I wish there was a goddamned parry option though. Mutants swing damned fast and it's harder to rope-a-dope them like the hybrids in 2.

Still, there are solutions (my preferred one is 'shoot them in the face'). If a mutant is charging you, a headshot -- even if it's not fatal -- immediately stops them.

Also, I will give credit: the AI pathing is a lot better than you'll expect -- I haven't seen critters get hung up on geometry, and things like chairs or those rolling trays? They will actually knock that shit out of the way as they come piling towards you.

Considering the state of video game development today -- Redfall and LOTR: Gollum, just to name two -- System Shock's flaws barely register on the dial.

 

[Talmanes]

I implore you sir, and I'm not trying to be a jerk, please play something like Witchaven and then get back to me if you still believe the melee is bad.

What kind of retarded logic is that? The melee combat in this game isn't shit because the melee combat in this other game is even worse? The melee combat in the remake is bad and feels floaty and hit feedback is almost non existing.

 

[Dammit Mandrake!]

Did they change the music? The remake should still use the exact same music.

 

[BrunoMattei]

What kind of retarded logic is that? The melee combat in this game isn't shit because the melee combat in this other game is even worse? The melee combat in the remake is bad and feels floaty and hit feedback is almost non existing.

Because the melee combat is fine aside from the issue I've admitted to and people have overblown this issue. That's my point, sir.

I have played games with bad melee combat and this game does not have bad melee combat.

Example (for your plebian ass): Joe Schmoe thinks Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is the worst movie ever made and I tell Joe Schmoe "Not really, have you seen Black Devil Doll from Hell? That's an example of a truly bad movie."

 

[Mooger Meng]

Did they change the music? The remake should still use the exact same music.

Pretty sure they have, and thank fuck for it. From what little I've seen it's scaled down remixes of the original tracks that fit the visuals they chose for the remake, more atmospheric than the constant MIDI BRANK BRANK BROOOOOOOOONK taco shits from the OG.
They would have needed to for consistency anyway; even if you took the OG's music and redid it with better instruments, most of it would be at odds with how much more dark and desolate the remake looks.

 

[Dojima's Dragon]

Pretty sure they have, and thank fuck for it. From what little I've seen it's scaled down remixes of the original tracks that fit the visuals they chose for the remake, more atmospheric than the constant MIDI BRANK BRANK BROOOOOOOOONK taco shits from the OG.
They would have needed to for consistency anyway; even if you took the OG's music and redid it with better instruments, most of it would be at odds with how much more dark and desolate the remake looks.

Sorry still they should have kept it

 

[Mooger Meng]

Sorry still they should have kept it

Don't you fucking lie, you're not sorry at all.
E: Now that I think about it, I wonder how long it will take for someone to mod the OG music back in? Assuming it's not a menu option somewhere, that is.

 

[Rich Evans Ayypologist]

I definitely aim to get this one when it goes on sale, by which point it'll also doubtlessly have mods to touch up on everything lackluster from sound to melee weightiness. I don't understand the FOMO for this one, though - it's a remake of an old-ass game that doesn't change up that much. No reason to shell out two Jacksons on it when the RE2make went on sale for $20 really, really quickly into its life-cycle.

The biggest complaint I'm hearing about it is basically that it doesn't tell you where to go next like you're a drooling retard. Several reviewers, who I know are NEETs that did nothing but play the game for 18 hours straight from the second it came out, had the gall to ask 'so what if I take a day's break and forget the hint that was mentioned in an audio log?' as if walkthroughs are some alien concept. And hey, I like the possibility of getting lost, stuck, and having to stop and think.

 

[Talmanes]

Example (for your plebian ass): Joe Schmoe thinks Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is the worst movie ever made and I tell Joe Schmoe "Not really, have you seen Black Devil Doll from Hell? That's an example of a truly bad movie."

And here you come again with a comparison between something bad and something worse. The melee combat isn't the worst ever but it's still bad.

 

[BrunoMattei]

And here you come again with a comparison between something bad and something worse. The melee combat isn't the worst ever but it's still bad.

And I'm telling you that the melee is fine. You get into the thing's face and whack at it. There's supposed to be a risk/reward to using melee you god damn plebian.

 

[Mr.Miyagi]

I've been having a good time so far. Never got around to playing the original, so it's nice to finally go back and give it a shot with the remake. I like how you can be an idiot and fire the mining laser yourself and get a game over. I've only just started the Executive level now, and I'm so full of weapons and ammo and consumables that I have trouble finding space, so it'll be interesting to see if the game ramps up and that changes. It's cool to have the difficulty options let you tweak things separately, and I'll probably try a max difficulty run later, though the time limits seems pretty daunting due to how slow I've been taking it.

The biggest complaint I'm hearing about it is basically that it doesn't tell you where to go next like you're a drooling retard. Several reviewers, who I know are NEETs that did nothing but play the game for 18 hours straight from the second it came out, had the gall to ask 'so what if I take a day's break and forget the hint that was mentioned in an audio log?' as if walkthroughs are some alien concept. And hey, I like the possibility of getting lost, stuck, and having to stop and think.

It's a nice change of pace from current designs, with objective markers either in linear hallways or massive, empty open worlds. I enjoyed finding a log that tells you the executives purposefully designed the station to be a labyrinthine maze, just to stress people out. There was a point that I got a code and went to a new level, but by the time I had gotten to the point to use it, I had forgotten it (due to neglecting to write it down.) So I had to backtrack to get it again. But because it was my fault, I wasn't mad at the devs for wasting my time or whatever, it was a good lesson. There's a ware that tells you what SHODAN's current goal is, and all your logs are sorted by level and audio/text, so I (so far) haven't ever felt like I was at a loss for what I needed to do.