Tesla Hate Thread - oh and come seethe about EVs in general with me

[The Ugly One]

My wife seems to handle the children just fine with her sedan.

Your wife isn't everybody - there's an observable consumer preferences for high-sitting vehicles. Since full-sized sedans don't get much better mileage than SUVs any more (besides being regulated differently), demand for them has been collapsing.

he conventional design of the BMW ix demonstrates that through optimization a typical SUV two box design can somehow be made as aerodynamic as the arch design of a prius.

A BMW ix is electric, so it's going to be a net positive on a company's regulatory balance sheet almost regardless of its aerodynamics. Remember, the F in CAFE stands for fleet. The EPA doesn't care about aerodynamics per se. It cares about the average fuel economy of all the vehicles you sell.

Bluff bodies create a large separation zone behind the car. This can be mitigated by trailing spoilers, which you increasingly see on minivans and more conventionally styled SUVs, but nothing beats a streamlined shape for controlling adverse pressure gradients, preventing boundary layer separation, and minimizing the drag induced by a wake. It's why you don't see flat rear ends on aircraft. The main reason auto companies spend millions of dollars on CFD and wind tunnels is to improve fuel economy so they cand meet regulatory targets. They're not just doing it because they're bored, or because they hate money, or because there's a conspiracy to make your cars ugly.

Of course, the basic principle was understood a hundred years ago:

I mention forum reports because that's usually real world reporting of fuel economy with the added benefit of knowing extra details like cruise speed and tire/wheel combinations. City economy is where the the X5 shows its age against a modern SUV but the main comparison is that the highway economy isn't too far off from a modern Benz since the topic was about aerodynamics of the coupe vs classical SUV style.

And I said what I did because the only way of testing mileage that determines whether or not you're compliant with CAFE standards. Engineers design to the EPA test, not to some forum guy's idea of how to test a car. Under the regulated testing conditions, the BMW gets 19 hwy mpg, and the Benz gets 26 mpg. There have been some advances in 20 years that X5 came out - better-optimized combustion chambers, GDI, a few other things, but a lot of it's aerodynamics. Companies just weren't doing the things with CFD in 2001 that they are now.

 

[Car Won't Crank]

And I said what I did because the only way of testing mileage that determines whether or not you're compliant with CAFE standards. Engineers design to the EPA test, not to some forum guy's idea of how to test a car. Under the regulated testing conditions, the BMW gets 19 hwy mpg, and the Benz gets 26 mpg. There have been some advances in 20 years that X5 came out - better-optimized combustion chambers, GDI, a few other things, but a lot of it's aerodynamics. Companies just weren't doing the things with CFD in 2001 that they are now.

Testing methods 20 years ago were also much different than they are now. The various real world forum reports still provide valuable information on old cars for multiple reasons like typical engine wear, advances in engine oil and additives, and higher ethanol content in fuel that wasn't the standard in the 1990s.

 

[burnlebridge]

I recently rented a Tesla while I was in Oregon cuz I didn't want to pay for the high gas prices, plus I was only gonna have it for one single day and let me tell you, driving that thing was kind of a pain in the ass.

First of all, you HAVE to do every single fucking thing on that stupid touchscreen which is super distracting because if you want to see how fast you're going, you check the screen and you're aren't looking at the road for 2 seconds, I know that sounds like it's not a big deal, but it really is when you drive it. I don't see why the speedometer should be on the screen and just be like a normal, traditional car because it really is safer that why other than muh simplicity or whatever

Second, I knew it was going to be a boring car but it is really soulless. The seats leather feels so fake and cheap its actually disappointing for the price. The build quality isn't any better either, I was expecting better for how much it costs.

Third, wanna charge your car? Gotta download our app bitch! Everytime I charge this stupid car all the charging stations are so shit and annoying because you just HAVE to waste 20 minutes to download and setup a stupid app to charge the damn thing.

Fourth, this is probably isn't the car's fault and more of mine but it's so quiet that you can hear every single thing, like bumps. It really makes me stressed out for some reason idk why but my guess is that it makes me so self aware that it makes me stressed and it's really bad when you're on a highway.

Basically, it sucks and you should rent a combustion car instead. If you REALLY want an EV get literally anything else.

 

[Car Won't Crank]

Third, wanna charge your car? Gotta download our app bitch! Everytime I charge this stupid car all the charging stations are so shit and annoying because you just HAVE to waste 20 minutes to download and setup a stupid app to charge the damn thing.

That is one of my biggest issues with Tesla and the other EVs on the market. The manufactures insist you use their shitty mobile app that works half the time, runs in the background and collects who knows what else information from your phone. For someone who prefers a minimalist loadout of applications on a phone, it's a big dealbreaker. I cannot stomach having to create yet another account with car maker X just to use the damn car when a basic bitch Benz from 2010 lets me use the car with a normal key fob and isn't connected to the internet.

 

[Jump]

Now what you said right there “at home” majority of Americans don’t own a home. Look at any major apartment complex and most residents can’t even park in the same spot each night. How would they even consider charging their cars? Even if an apartment complex loads each spot with a charger, who’s gonna pay for that infrastructure? It’s not just dropping the chargers in place, it’s the wiring, new conduits, everything to make sure all those chargers can charge at the same time and not blow out the power to the whole block. Otherwise there’s a lot of people who won’t be able to go to work the next day.

They want the poors on buses and trains. They hate the American car-centric culture and want to see it ended. So they force EV's which are expensive and a pain in the ass to deal with. And hope people just give up on owning a car.

The average age of cars on the road now is 12.5 years. That means there are a shitload of older cars still around most on their 2nd or 3rd owner. EVs are great for car makers. Owning an old out of warranty EV means your looking at a 10-20K battery replacement soon. So people end up in "refresh" cycles just like a fucking iphone. Always be consooming and always have a car payment.

 

[Roland TB-303]

They want the poors on buses and trains. They hate the American car-centric culture and want to see it ended. So they force EV's which are expensive and a pain in the ass to deal with. And hope people just give up on owning a car.

The average age of cars on the road now is 12.5 years. That means there are a shitload of older cars still around most on their 2nd or 3rd owner. EVs are great for car makers. Owning an old out of warranty EV means your looking at a 10-20K battery replacement soon. So people end up in "refresh" cycles just like a fucking iphone. Always be consooming and always have a car payment.

Just stop being poor.

 

[DeadwastePrime]

Just stop being poor.

understood i am now living in 20+ room mansion with 80 cars and a yacht

 

[Cyberpunk Panatela]

@burnlebridge , what does the car do when you try charging it and don't have the phone app? Will it just not charge?

Also, anyone who knows:

Tesla used to have a ridiculous policy of selling "upgrades" (like the car radio or better seating) independently from the car and then insisting that they be removed by their dealer when the owner sold the car. If the new owner wanted them they had to buy new ones.

Are they still doing this (This was when they started off, so it may have changed). Only reason I know of this is a Mercedes salesman who was trying to sell me their electric car mentioned their not doing this as a reason the Benz was better.

(Tesla doesn't sell their shit in my home country, but some people go over the border to buy one, mostly to flex their wealth).

EVs are pretty useless in Africa anyway (There's nowhere to charge between cities, which are far apart, and petrol is easy to carry around, unlike a power source).

 

[burnlebridge]

@burnlebridge , what does the car do when you try charging it and don't have the phone app? Will it just not charge?

It will not allow you to charge without the app, it was a third party charger though (ChargePoint). I've used one charger that only wants a credit card but the majority I found want you to download an app (Forgot the name).

 

[Cyberpunk Panatela]

It will not allow you to charge without the app, it was a third party charger though (ChargePoint). I've used one charger that only wants a credit card but the majority I found want you to download an app (Forgot the name).

I think I understand - it's not the car that blocks charging, it's the EV equivalent of a petrol station that won't sell you electricity without their app.

Like I said, that stuff is almost nonexistent where I come from, but we have shops that do similar things (Offer big discounts but you must get their app to "qualify").

 

[God's drunkest driver]

A BMW ix is electric, so it's going to be a net positive on a company's regulatory balance sheet almost regardless of its aerodynamics. Remember, the F in CAFE stands for fleet. The EPA doesn't care about aerodynamics per se. It cares about the average fuel economy of all the vehicles you sell.

Two numbers alone can show you why I'm right, the "coupe SUV" design is in pursuit of a stupid look by retards, for retards, and isn't something that they're doing for the benefit of Cd.
BMW ix Cd: 0.25
Audi Q8 E-tron Cd: 0.26
The conventional box vs the "coupe". These are comparable vehicles in the same class, they're both EVs, yet the coupe Cd is basically the same as the box. If they were using the "coupe" for the benefit of Cd, why wouldn't the "coupe" be more aerodynamic than the box? It's not like the designers weren't capable of it because BMW's are better.

Miss me with the low-information aero lecture. Look at the rear end of a conventional SUV design such as the ix today, it's not "blunt" it's tapered and sculpted to optimize flow separation, even down to the protrusions you'll see on the d-pillars of some like tahoe. You're heavily limited by length with cars, unlike airplanes, so you can only streamline so much, aircraft design is basically irrelevant to car design. The ix is a highly optimized design from an aero point of view to achieve 0.25 with a similar design to a 2000s explorer, it's techincally impressive even if it is ugly from the front. Even though the rear end has a greater area than the Q8 E tron above, the Cd stays low because all sides are tapered and the surfaces are optimized to ensure separation in a pseudo boat tail design.

I don't know why you think it being an EV and CAFE negates the obviously good Cd. Do you think because it's electric you think the aero doesn't matter to them so they intentionally designed it to be less efficient instead of doing what polestar and Audi did and making it a "coupe"? Not like EV sales are highly dependent on range or anything. They aren't going to sacrifice range (and thus sales) for some conventional look when they've been consistently fucking up their styling in every other possible way for the past 5 years and obviously don't care about going modern full-retard in the styling department, and the "coupes" are popular anyway. Tesla on the other hand goes all in on aero, the ugly "arch" is their look. Each of their cars looks like the other, just with different heights.

TL;DR the "coupe SUV" trend isn't done solely in pursuit of efficiency. It's a "look"

They want the poors on buses and trains. They hate the American car-centric culture and want to see it ended. So they force EV's which are expensive and a pain in the ass to deal with. And hope people just give up on owning a car.

This is objectively the truth. Intentionally driving up the price of oil, gas, and cars has one end goal and that's urbanization and control.

 

[Zookerton]

They're shoving everyone to electric cars but have done nothing to bolster the electric grid.

I can't wait until commiefornia gets even more rolling blackouts because everyone has a 1500w load running in every household 8 hours a day. Oh no let's not bolster the infrastructure with nuclear let's setup more solar panels and wind farms which are FUCKING useless for land to power generated on a large scale.

Solar is only useful for small scale homes and whatnot.

Wind looks like a netloss and only held up with government subsidy it costs more to power and pollution to produce a turbine compared to what it will produce in its lifetime. Nevermind all the birds you kill with windfarms.
"I love nature" and by the windfarm there are bird corpses everywhere.

 

[FiddleAFox]

They're shoving everyone to electric cars but have done nothing to bolster the electric grid.

I can't wait until commiefornia gets even more rolling blackouts because everyone has a 1500w load running in every household 8 hours a day. Oh no let's not bolster the infrastructure with nuclear let's setup more solar panels and wind farms which are FUCKING useless for land to power generated on a large scale.

Apparently Florida's doing alrightish with the adoption of EVs, only problem is when they get too much water in their vehicles and becomes completely totaled. With an ICE if the water level isn't as high to get into the main computer it's salvageable. With EVs, if water gets into the battery packs, that vehicle's fucked.

Solar is only useful for small scale homes and whatnot.

Wind looks like a netloss and only held up with government subsidy it costs more to power and pollution to produce a turbine compared to what it will produce in its lifetime. Nevermind all the birds you kill with windfarms.
"I love nature" and by the windfarm there are bird corpses everywhere.

Lol look at Germany, that's exactly how they run their country and they have had their curfews for I think at least 30 years or something like that. They've been cucking and limiting themselves for that hard for so long that it's pretty laughable at this point.

 

[Jump]

Early adopters of non-Telsa EV's fucked over. They are the new Betamax owners in a VHS world.

link

 

[DavidS877]

Early adopters of non-Telsa EV's fucked over. They are the new Betamax owners in a VHS world.
View attachment 5156602

While they are switching to the Tesla connector, the article does say that GM at least will have adapters for the older models.

Of course later models will need an adapter to charge with non-Tesla chargers.

 

[Car Won't Crank]

Early adopters of non-Telsa EV's fucked over. They are the new Betamax owners in a VHS world.
View attachment 5156602
link

So they finally settled on a standard. I think Tesla making their connector protocol or whatever patent free and open contributed to that. Still doesn't make me want to get an EV of any sort unless it's a golf cart.

 

[The Ugly One]

Two numbers alone can show you why I'm right

A 5% difference in CD, with the more streamlined design being more aerodynamic, proves you're right about the streamlined design not being about aerodynamics? In your experience, what's the drag count where the engineers stop pursuing further optimizations?

Miss me with the low-information aero lecture.

Sure, you graduated from the top forum on the internet.

I don't know why you think it being an EV and CAFE negates the obviously good Cd.

Never said it did. What I was saying is that aerodynamics optimization is getting more and more aggressive in ICE vehicles to slide under CAFE requirements, and needs to be, since ICE vehicles are still by far the bulk of vehicles sold, so pointing to an EV as proof that the people designing these vehicles aren't actually thinking about aerodynamics isn't any kind of apples-to-apples comparison.

You need to hit CAFE targets, and as long as fleets are composed mostly of ICE vehicles, that's going to affect the designs.

 

[God's drunkest driver]

A 5% difference in CD, with the more streamlined design being more aerodynamic, proves you're right about the streamlined design not being about aerodynamics? In your experience, what's the drag count where the engineers stop pursuing further optimizations?

Point missed. I just demonstrated to you that you can easily match the Cd of a "coupe" SUV with a 2 box design and summarily proved the "coupe" SUV fad isn't an aero thing.

Sure, you graduated from the top forum on the internet.

Sorry, the fact that you use the word "graduate" to insult shows you have zero standing in the field and are out of your depth.

You need to hit CAFE targets, and as long as fleets are composed mostly of ICE vehicles, that's going to affect the designs.

You're still insisting that an irrelevant metric is the reason why the "coupe" is taking over. It has nothing to do with aerodynamic efficiency, it has nothing to do with CAFE's footprint based regulations. It has nothing to do with meeting the standards. It is a styling fad just like extremely oversized grilles and plunging beltlines. If they didn't sell they wouldn't make them, they aren't doing it because they have to eliminate 2 box styling for aero. Taken to its logical conclusion the arch styling is indeed the lowest drag approach; see every single tesla having the same shape just a different aspect ratio. That's not why they're doing this retarded coupe suv bullshit. End of story. This conversation is over.

 

[Executive Petrel]

Do tesla drivers know their faggot car will be ready for scrap in less than ten years?

 

[Audit]

I hate tesla's, and really pretty much all consumer EV's, because of their effect on the supply/cost of lithium batteries and maddening fraction of the car's weight dedicated to a battery. These things cannot be scaled up to any kind of long distance freight vehicle. So, even ignoring that it's doubtful that there's even enough easily accessible lithium on the surface of the planet to make everyone an electric car, an EV's energy efficiency will be limited by the sheer weight of the massive battery it lugs around (speaking nothing of the energy costs to manufacture the battery and mine its rare materials).

Toyota has it right. Hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go. They're much lighter and still allow you to use that electric motor that Tesla simps adore so much. This is where the big infrastructure advantage comes in. You can convert your fleets of shipping vehicles to hydrogen without worrying about the fuel/cargo weight ratio. Even if a fuel cell won't work, hydrogen can be burned in a turbine or modified combustion engine. So, unlike your fleets of EV's, the commercial vehicles and the passenger vehicles can all be running on the same fuel. Plus, hydrogen gas production is an excellent way to chemically store excess energy produced from "green" sources for later use. Realistically, most of your hydrogen is just going to come from natural gas cracking, but even this isn't too big of a concern if you're in a country with an excess of it (e.g. Russia, the US, etc.). Europeans can even get in on the "green" hydrogen fun by using the excess off-shore wind turbines, hydroelectric, and solar power that they so heavily subsidize to produce a chemical fuel that their citizens and industries can use in lieu of Russian gas.

The platinum catalysts in the fuel cells are going to be the main limitation in their proliferation, but it's possible that some more common/cheaper catalyst could be developed in the future that overcomes this problem. Even in the event this never happens, you will never find a more energy dense battery material than lithium compounds. You can check the periodic table. Good luck finding a lighter, more electronegative solid material than lithium.

In short, fuck Elon and his stupid mattel toy cars that have set back hydrogen infrastructure decades in favor of an insane pipe dream for eco-activists and silicon valley bugmen who can't conceive of a world where someone might drive more than 500 miles in a day. Also, fuck his stupid vacuum trains. It already costs enough to build rail infrastructure without pricing in the cost of maintaining a rough vacuum in the whole damn thing. Air resistance isn't a massive problem for stream lined bodies, and eliminating air between the train and the outside world means you can quickly run into overheating and ventilation problems. Did this retard never hear about the real reason Laika died? Hint, it wasn't asphyxiation. Poor dog boiled to death. Stuff hundreds of people into a cramped cabin without outside oxygen or A/C and lemme know how it goes. The hyperloop was a stupid idea from the start and only a brainrotted halfwit would look at a train and conclude that air is the problem. What's next? Flying cars? Let's eliminate friction and road infrastructure by perpetually fighting the force of gravity and turning every minor crash into a plummet into the earth. I jest. It's already in the work scamming investors.