Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Its funny they don't realize that this is Ukraine's very own Great Patriotic War. The stakes are just as high for Ukraine now as they were for the Russians in 1940, and the behavior of the invaders is almost as bad.
And to top it off, Russian actions in Ukraine confirm the Ukrainian side of history, where the country was revising its past for the last 20 years and finding out, that the union with Russia was not brotherly but of master and servant. Russians were always keen to laugh at these accounts and accusations, saying that Ukrainians had a victim mentality and that "they were so bad, they left schools and factories in their wake".

Guess what...
 
And to top it off, Russian actions in Ukraine confirm the Ukrainian side of history, where the country was revising its past for the last 20 years and finding out, that the union with Russia was not brotherly but of master and servant. Russians were always keen to laugh at these accounts and accusations, saying that Ukrainians had a victim mentality and that "they were so bad, they left schools and factories in their wake".

Guess what...
"I found Ukraine a country of sunflowers and left it a country of barbed wire." - Vladimir Putin.
 
Furthermore I did get the impression that this person DOES sincerely want peace... they are basically under a spell where the means to achieving peace is for Russia to bring war.
Everyone wants peace, but everyone has their own terms. Russia wants peace and to pacify former imperial territories that have gotten uppity. US wants peace and to have Russia out of East Europe and weak enough to not be a threat, so it can concentrate on China. Ukraine and East Europe want peace and their borders and their demographic desires respected.
In many ways nothing has changed from the Cold War. The 3 large empires tend to try and intervene in various shithole countries where chimpouts erupt or where there are economic/influence interests. The competing empire will try to arm and sustain their opponents to make imperial endeavors such as these very costly. The empires cannot really fight directly as they are nuclear armed and it would collapse the whole planet, and what's the point of ruling as a Pyrrhic winner over rubble. But they still extend their tentacles as much as they can and take calculated risks... and sometimes calculations are wrong.
Russia won't give up its imperial ambitions. The whole Fukuyama liberal kumbaya thing was extinguished and it will take monumental effort to return the planet to a more orderly state. Where there's order to be made out of chaos, everyone wants to be the police, not the policed.
 
@CuzinEd
I find it odd that they weren't using shotguns or anything like that. I think that's what the US used in trenches in WW1. You don't really have to aim a shotgun much. also pistols would be good in that situation I believe. But that was pretty bad. But the Russian conscripts only get a few days or so of training. These are not professional soldiers or trained killers. They are regular jack offs with a rifle taken out of storage. I don't even think they have reflex sites on their rifles. I believe the Ukrainians were using reflex sites which may have helped them with that kind of shooting.
They do, I have video from both sides of shotguns being used to take down drones, usually in conjunction with jamming "rifles" & other countermeasures. They seem to be more common on the front lines with Russians, they were even trying to raise funds on Telegram for one shotgun per squad (or platoon I forget which); but with Ukrainians I've only seen them being used by 2nd line/territorial defense, police, and reservist ADA units, like those armed with nothing but Maxims & AKs. Though I have hundreds of videos saved, and it might take me a while to locate them.

For as many restrictions they had on firearms, Russia did have a fairly well developed shotgun culture; similar to our own, just smaller & more insular; although they did open up some for a while, and it was nice when we were trading tech & experience, but those days are sadly long gone. So it's been interesting because whenever I see a Russian soldier with a shotgun, I wonder if it's one of those guys from the shooting forums & competitions.

Segue:
Frontline hammertime...
 
Trench combat, 2023-style. Ukrainian operator from the 73rd Maritime SOF gets a hat-trick +1.
Telegram link
Something seems off about video in a way I can't describe.
Also the russian moblik at the end is wearing sneakers.

one man was handed a rifle and another man told to follow that guy and when he died to pick up the rifle, because there was not enough rifles for both men.
This a myth that proves the lie.
USSR had more than enough rifles for its troops. Soviet factories were able to make more than sufficient quantities of Mosins, and uniforms. What the Soviets lacked was the logistics infrastructure to actually get those items to the front, distribute them to soldiers, and enough people at top more interested in equipping the men fighting than lining their own pockets via blackmarket. Stalingrad was an important enough fight (and Stalin having recovered from his mental break) that it was getting proper (well, as proper as Soviets ever got to) supply. Soviet commanders just needlessly spent lives and ammo because there were no skilled officers since they had been purged because they might be a threat.

While the "get the rifle from the dead guy" didn't happen at Stalingrad, it did at other places especially in the early days of the war.

I know it's petty to pick fights and post them in thread, I don't want to bring heat on this user. But I honestly found it really interesting (if a little heated) talking to a Russian and seeing how they apply the propaganda to their own perception of the war. Literally resorting to double-think in real time to justify one thing when confronted with the same thing from the other side.
My dude, there is already a thread for slapfights with people from the other, bad thread.

Post it there and link it if you feel you really need to toot you own horn about how you totally internet destroyed some mentally disabled person. Because this is serious gay & cringe beta behavior.
 
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Perhaps not significant, but the second article has gotten Elon Musk's approval:
musk-sacks.png


The first article is little more than a recitation of the referenced Foreign Affairs article (from April).

The fact is, it's way too early to declare the counteroffensive a success or failure. A lot of it has been strikes on logistics and supplies far behind the lines, the consequences of which will take a while to be noticed on the front line and translate to territorial gains. These armchair pundits need to learn some patience (but of course they won't because it's their job not to).

ETA: The talk about peace deals is irrelevant nonsense. Any peace Russia agreed to would merely be a tool to solidify its holdings while preparing for the next attack. Putin has made his intentions clear and they do not include letting Ukraine exist in peace.
 
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Perhaps not significant, but the second article has gotten Elon Musk's approval:
View attachment 5172056

The first article is little more than a recitation of the referenced Foreign Affairs article (from April).

The fact is, it's way too early to declare the counteroffensive a success or failure. A lot of it has been strikes on logistics and supplies far behind the lines, the consequences of which will take a while to be noticed on the front line and translate to territorial gains. These armchair pundits need to learn some patience (but of course they won't because it's their job not to).

ETA: The talk about peace deals is irrelevant nonsense. Any peace Russia agreed to would merely be a tool to solidify its holdings while preparing for the next attack. Putin has made his intentions clear and they do not include letting Ukraine exist in peace.
Musk boosts vatnik propaganda almost every day if you trawl through his replies, which he is very aware a lot of people do. Not clear what his motive is but he definitely is not pro-Ukie, regardless of how much charity he gave them early on.
 
Musk boosts vatnik propaganda almost every day if you trawl through his replies, which he is very aware a lot of people do. Not clear what his motive is but he definitely is not pro-Ukie, regardless of how much charity he gave them early on.
I think like a lot of people who boost vatnik shit he just hates Zalenskyy with a passion and is willing to throw his weight behind anyone who opposes him for any reason, even if it happens to be an invading army lead by a far worse despot.
 
Lot of the American anti-Ukrainian hate is due to the Ukrainian govt relationship with the Bidens. Since the cuckservatives couldn't and wouldn't do fuck all against the USSR and PRC and their very cozy relationships with the democrats for the past hundred years. Now they decide to cosplay as the democrats throwing tamper tantrums over a "corrupt" euro country refusing to bend over and stop poking the bear.
 
RFK is also in the replies in that Musk thing, playing the same game.
RFK also did a media tour, with Glenn Greenwald and other "anti-system" podcasters.
A lot of normie Americans are tolerating a harder life at home while so much money goes towards foreign countries less and less. A lot of Americans are pissed that nobody wants to hear their problems, as dumb as they often are, they deserve some democratic consideration IMO. A lot of Americans see the ruling elites more keenly now that the Internet exploded. Is this peppered with conspiracies and weirdness? Sure. But some issues are real.
Things need to be redressed at home in the US too.
As for Musk, I think he's thinking of himself as this super smart rich non-conformist very special person that has probably absorbed quietly, frustrated, years of Internet memes and culture, without the ability to shitpost and express himself as the child that he still is. I bet he's incredibly bored with what he is doing and constantly needs new toys and excitement. Now he can somewhat speak on politics. Seen this journey through "red pilling" so many times, and Musk's incredibly stereotypical. He's like the 2014 dude learning about mansplaining for the first time and getting to raid tumblr with his 4chan pals.
 
Lot of the American anti-Ukrainian hate is due to the Ukrainian govt relationship with the Bidens. Since the cuckservatives couldn't and wouldn't do fuck all against the USSR and PRC and their very cozy relationships with the democrats for the past hundred years. Now they decide to cosplay as the democrats throwing tamper tantrums over a "corrupt" euro country refusing to bend over and stop poking the bear.
That and buying into the idea of Russia as some last bulwark against the west. Basically, if the US falls to fagshit socialism and a troon-friendly censorship state, at least Russia will be there to lead the world when it falls.

I will be the first to admit there was a time when I bought into this myth, before Putin actually went mask-off and exposed himself as just an "ex" commie old fart wishing for the glory days of the USSR...

That and Russia's reputation of having a competent military imploding before the worlds eyes.
 
I think like a lot of people who boost vatnik shit he just hates Zalenskyy with a passion and is willing to throw his weight behind anyone who opposes him for any reason, even if it happens to be an invading army lead by a far worse despot.
Maybe he doesn't like someone being more famous than him, could be something as petty lol
 
Musk boosts vatnik propaganda almost every day if you trawl through his replies, which he is very aware a lot of people do. Not clear what his motive is but he definitely is not pro-Ukie, regardless of how much charity he gave them early on.
I think like a lot of people who boost vatnik shit he just hates Zalenskyy with a passion and is willing to throw his weight behind anyone who opposes him for any reason, even if it happens to be an invading army lead by a far worse despot.
As for Musk, I think he's thinking of himself as this super smart rich non-conformist very special person

tl;dr Musk is the world's richest man, he has the most to lose if WWIII starts and everything goes to chaotic shit. He just wants Russia to shit down shut up and finger off the button so he can go back to making money.

"Jesus! Just give him half of your cookies so he'll shut up!"
 
That and buying into the idea of Russia as some last bulwark against the west. Basically, if the US falls to fagshit socialism and a troon-friendly censorship state, at least Russia will be there to lead the world when it falls.

I will be the first to admit there was a time when I bought into this myth, before Putin actually went mask-off and exposed himself as just an "ex" commie old fart wishing for the glory days of the USSR...

That and Russia's reputation of having a competent military imploding before the worlds eyes.
I'd say it also starts with the soviet union. Many people,me too, saw the soviet union as an ideological state, which is why leftists loved it. And many right wingers in the West saw it's collapse in 1990 as the people "coming to their senses". And with information on russian inner workings and daily lives being sparse people could project their wishes into Russia. Especially with the economic rise in the 2000's under Putin being a convenient talking point for how great authoritarianism is, which is moot because Russia actually was more of a petrol state at that point.

Now with the invasion and Russia's sentiment to it, some people are looking at the soviet union differently and seeing it more as one face of russian imperialism.

But many right wingers in the west still see Russia as the one leaving communism behind and thus one step ahead of the West in that regard.
 
RFK is also in the replies in that Musk thing, playing the same game.
RFK also did a media tour, with Glenn Greenwald and other "anti-system" podcasters.
A lot of normie Americans are tolerating a harder life at home while so much money goes towards foreign countries less and less. A lot of Americans are pissed that nobody wants to hear their problems, as dumb as they often are, they deserve some democratic consideration IMO. A lot of Americans see the ruling elites more keenly now that the Internet exploded. Is this peppered with conspiracies and weirdness? Sure. But some issues are real.
Things need to be redressed at home in the US too.
As for Musk, I think he's thinking of himself as this super smart rich non-conformist very special person that has probably absorbed quietly, frustrated, years of Internet memes and culture, without the ability to shitpost and express himself as the child that he still is. I bet he's incredibly bored with what he is doing and constantly needs new toys and excitement. Now he can somewhat speak on politics. Seen this journey through "red pilling" so many times, and Musk's incredibly stereotypical. He's like the 2014 dude learning about mansplaining for the first time and getting to raid tumblr with his 4chan pals.
Well said - I think a lot of people don't think critically on these issues and they simply choose the side opposite of whomever they're told to support. I nominally support Ukraine but also don't want to be paying for their war. They absolutely have a right to exist, and they didn't antagonize Putin's Russia simply by existing, nor did NATO (an organization I do not like)

I also absolutely believe Ukrainian elite is embezzling a lot of the funds they're being given, and that the Biden family has an extremely shady financial (and information security) incentive to keep Ukraine free. Especially when they're not playing with their money, but with ours.

I want Ukrainians to be able to defend their homeland and sovereignty while also not being personally financially burdened with their defense. These are European problems for European countries to resolve, and I believe Germany should step up to the plate further, along with others. Russia does not present so massive a geopolitical threat to the US as to require our floundering economy to choke out a few billion extra dollars per quarter to Ukraine. I've felt this way about Israel, too.
 
I'd say it also starts with the soviet union. Many people,me too, saw the soviet union as an ideological state, which is why leftists loved it. And many right wingers in the West saw it's collapse in 1990 as the people "coming to their senses". And with information on russian inner workings and daily lives being sparse people could project their wishes into Russia. Especially with the economic rise in the 2000's under Putin being a convenient talking point for how great authoritarianism is, which is moot because Russia actually was more of a petrol state at that point.

USSR was also masters of media control.
You could not freely travel inside the USSR or within a member state of the USSR. You had to have internal passports. You think the Chinese "Social Score" shit is bad you have no fucking idea, USSR pioneered it. Thus dissents could be shoved to remote corners of the empire to die or break, and you had "model towns" where the wealthy elite lived, so when the commie dick suckers went to visit, they only saw perfectly working communism and not the gulags and vodka-niggers making it work.

They also only saw Ethnic Russians, but were told that this Ethnic Russian was from Kazakhstan and see how well he's treated? Its no different from other Russians! Never look at this family tree or see that other than his parents and siblings his entire family lives outside of Moscow. Communism is the most equal system, Comrade!

Don't talk about the Holodomor, don't talk about the Aral Sea, dont' talk about Chernobyl, any of their other Nuke Projects or testing areas, don't talk about the sable & fox farms, don't talk about the gulags or Cannibal Island, the forced relocations of minority ethnicities to the worst most remote places and the mortality rates they experienced ... just ignore all that. And you can ignore all that if you just want to suck on anti-capitalist propagranda, because of the throttle-grip they have on people and the media.

One of the most striking places this "performative reality" was evident was in computing. They would bring in western computer science professors for "information sharing" and would show them the latest soviet computer machine - so much faster than the western ones! Never mind that the formula being plugged in had been meticulously groomed for the hardware, or that the machine had blown half of its shit-tier QC vaccum tubes in the demo and would be down for a week for reservicing.
The Soviet Professors would talk about how great the potential was, and that the government had put in the order for 5,000 to be built so every soviet university would have its own - order that were then scaled back to 3 machines which were never completed.
This lie was repeated until the 80s, when the Soviets were so far behind western computation - even with stolen designs and shell-company purchases licenses - that they couldn't even pretend to keep up the facade believably.

Another case was the Soviet's first "smart bomb". The bomb didn't lock on to the image of the target, so they pained the target orange. That didn't work so they painted a meter-wide, mile long stripe on the concrete and reprogramed the bomb to follow it. But the demonstration showed a bomb be released and hit kinda near its target. It didn't work, would never work, but the Soviets made sure that NATO knew they were ordering 1,000.

And it was effective. I remember my highschool teachers repeating things that I would learn, post college, was zombie Soviet Agiprop for useful idiots, and that when I had it repeated to me had been thoroughly disproven for years by access to Soviet records. Shit about how Russia during the cold war had these super advanced machines and projects that were stopped by EVIL CAPITALIST CORPORATIONS.

The USSR produced only two things in any real quantity: Ill-fitting shoes and dead commies.
 
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I also absolutely believe Ukrainian elite is embezzling a lot of the funds they're being given, and that the Biden family has an extremely shady financial (and information security) incentive to keep Ukraine free. Especially when they're not playing with their money, but with ours.

I want Ukrainians to be able to defend their homeland and sovereignty while also not being personally financially burdened with their defense. These are European problems for European countries to resolve, and I believe Germany should step up to the plate further, along with others. Russia does not present so massive a geopolitical threat to the US as to require our floundering economy to choke out a few billion extra dollars per quarter to Ukraine. I've felt this way about Israel, too.

Ukraine government is probably the least corrupt its been since the fall of Communism, but I'm sure even now the level of graft and grift would blow even a prepared mind. I know that Biden and probably the whole DNC has gotten kickbacks from Ukraine and is covering for his son, and I would like a full investigation done.

But that shit can wait and is secondary to Russia getting back inside its own borders. Oligarchs can get ineffectual charges by the ICC after its done. Both bidens can be gay & dead by the time a probe is started. You have to proxy war with the Slavs you have, not the slavs you wish you had.

And Russia is the most actively dangerous country in the world. The last time a non-Russia country used force to expand its borders was China in 1978 when they fought India. Since that time, Russia has done it two times (three if you want to count bringing Chechnya to heel) and aren't showing any signs of stopping. The expansionist rhetoric has only increased. China's getting ready to take that step, but Russia is trying to get back to geopolitical threat to the US; If the UK had funded & supplied Czechoslovakia instead of "THERE WILL BE PEACE IN OUR TIME", Hilter would have been cucked. No Czech expansion, no Austria capitulation, No invasion of Poland, France, and the low country. I'd much rather we send some hardware that's rusting in Arizona now than have to deal with a Russia that's a quarter larger than now, with Europe's balls more firmly in the Natural Gas vise.

If Ukraine was being invaded by a reasonably functional country like - jesus, who the fuck is there? - I dunno Japan, Switzerland, or Francoist Spain, I'd say "fuck 'em, the Slavs need civilizing". But Russia taking over is just trading one corrupt system for another. And Russia is worse because the Ukrainians will be unimportant vassals to be exploited, and we've seen from the make up of moblik callups how Russia treats its ethnic minorities.

And also the Jews should have to pay for their own defense, no disagreement there. And the Eurocucks should be doing more, but the fact they haven't cucked under yet... you have lower your expectations to realistic levels.
 
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