Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[East_Clintwood]

I'm honestly surprised we've not just bitten the bullet and sent those as well. A single fuel air bomb munition will turn any trench into a grave.

The problem, as it ever is with giving shit to Ukraine, is launch platforms, more specifically the lack thereof. While I'm sure they could rig them up to existing Ukrainian jets that would involve them getting danger close to the frontline, which isn't what they've been doing so far, and with good reason.

Also on the previous point about cluster bombs, I actually just read a quite interesting article. Apparently when Ukraine renewed their requests for cluster munitons a few months ago, they specifically requested Mk20 Rockeyes, which are air dropped cluster bombs. However rather than dropping them as is, what they actually wanna do is crack 'em open and use the ~250 bomblets to arm their drones. This is actually a lowkey genius idea. All the advantages of dropping specialist AT munitions directly onto the softest part of the tank, with none (or at least significantly less) of the risk of leaving tons of UXO everywhere that comes from dropping them en-masse.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Actually the Marine Corps still has a couple hundred SMAW-NE handheld thermobaric bunker busters in the odd chance they have to hit a fortified beach somewhere.

Pretty sure the HIMARS has a Thermobaric Round as well, but I don't think it was ever put into production because it's easier to use the 2,000lb aircraft delivered one. Trench Warfare wasn't really something in the cards for the US Army and even the Marine Corps bunker buster ls stopped production in 2005. I am sure both production lines could be spun up though. possible they even have been.

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

Apparently when Ukraine renewed their requests for cluster munitons a few months ago, they specifically requested Mk20 Rockeyes, which are air dropped cluster bombs. However rather than dropping them as is, what they actually wanna do is crack 'em open and use the ~250 bomblets to arm their drones. This is actually a lowkey genius idea.

That's what they've been doing since the very beginning. At the start they had tons of cluster munitions left over from Soviet times for their rotary-wing fleet & heavy artillery, but the aircraft & other delivery systems were destroyed or used for other purposes.

March or April last year I distinctly recall two videos of Ukrainians arming drones with submunitions taken from old Russian cluster-bombs & dispensers. It got my attention because it was the first time I'd seen their use of 3D printing in the field, and I still have them saved somewhere. Guess it took Ukrainians a little under two years to burn through what they had saved up, and it works well enough with unguided bomblets; imagine what they could get done with precision submunitions.


Edit: I'm also pretty sure they've tested it experimentally with the French equivalent of the CBU-97, which they got small numbers of last year (or some goodies from Textron). Also during the winter months, I also distinctly remember a couple videos where people were arguing that Ukrainians were dropping laser-guided munitions from drones, based on the odd behavior/flight-path & shape (like squat soup-cans). The pro-Russia types were insisting that it was due to wind, poor engineering of 3D printed fins, desperation, etc; but nevermind that those particular drops made pinpoint hits on moving targets, and they were obviously correcting in-flight against the wind.

I don't know if Russia has an equivalent of the CBU-97/BLU-108, and if they did it wouldn't surprise me if Ukraine had picked up some of those somewhere too.

 

[Uranus Pink]

Thing is Ukraine wants to use the DPICM munitions as is. One, they need any non-NBC munitions can they get for tube and rocket artillery. Two, DPICM is the wrong shape to be used as drone dropped bombets without major rework.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Thing is Ukraine wants to use the DPICM munitions as is. One, they need any non-NBC munitions can they get for tube and rocket artillery. Two, DPICM is the wrong shape to be used as drone dropped bombets without major rework.

This got me thinking. Odds are pretty good as this war progresses Russia is going to resort to using Chemical weapons. Those soviet stockpiles of ammo are not infinite and I seriously doubt Russian Industry is able to replace what is being expended at speed. I'd say the most likely location for them to do so would be around Avdiivka . Sad truth is Xi told putin "No Nukes", but I don't think he said anything about Mustard or VX. Which begs the question how the West would react to such a thing, and more importantly just how many Chemical rounds Ukraine has squirreled away. They almost certainly have some, and will certainly use them if Russia does. Which is probably why Russia hasn't. So far.

 

[Night Crawler]

Not exactly. While cluster bombs were used for runway denial, they're slightly different to the ones we used for anti tank/anti-personnel usage. The ones being sent to Ukraine will be:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-purpose_improved_conventional_munition in either a rocket compatible with HIMARS/M270s, or more likely in 155mm shells compatible with the multiple different NATO standard howitzers they've been getting.

Those would be the same ones used in Regiments. DPICM and it's delivered by artillery. It's pretty cool to see in the game. But shit to be on the receiving end of in real life.

Some people are saying the US is sending cluster munitions because they are running out of other stuff to send. I guess we are back to the "Oh no guyz we are running out of stuff" again.

 

[Uranus Pink]

U.S. Cluster munitions that haven't already destroyed, were also destined to be destroyed. Since neither the United States, Russia, or Ukraine are signatories of that particular weapon ban. There's nothing stopping the U.S. from shipping those off to Ukraine, except the political will to so. Or worst case, there is maybe some truth to TPTB making this into a forever war for reasons.

 

[World in Scarlet]

Some people are saying the US is sending cluster munitions because they are running out of other stuff to send.

I think that's credible (people often forget that for NATO "running out" means "the stockpile is not as big as desired", not "it's empty"). There's apparently hundreds of thousands of those cluster shells and using them is politically problematic, so sending them to Ukraine sounds like a good way to be rid of them and have them do some good.

 

[Snekposter]

Which feeds into the third point about possibly not understanding the systems capabilities and roles. In WWII you had issues with commanders ordering lightly armored Tank Destroyers into action that would have been harrowing for tanks because they just saw "Vehicles with treads + gun + armored division" and their brain stopped processing.

Minor autism, but the tank destroyers were typically assigned to infantry divisions, the tank divisions not really needing them much. Further, the problems came about in combat because while pre-combat planning was conducted evenly with regard for the capabilities of tank destroyers versus tanks, in actual combat situations the boots-on-the-ground commanders would issue some very unpleasant orders, but to be fair "lightly armored box with gun" is still more armor than an infantryman had at the time, and naturally if a TD of five guys gets gibbed by a big gun in the process of saving a squad or two from fire the company commander isn't going to be particularly heartbroken since that's fewer casualties than he would have taken otherwise.

I really wish we got to pick our allies.

War makes for strange and frequently infuriating bedfellows... and I got fucking ninjad.

Seriously this fucking war has broken a lot of people and made for some incredibly strange fucking bedfellows. I was a bit taken aback when I found myself agreeing with... fucking Redditors, of all people. That is very rare indeed.

Now you know how the French felt in WW1. "Wait, we're fighting with the English against the Germans instead of the English and Germans allied against us?"

Thing is Ukraine wants to use the DPICM munitions as is. One, they need any non-NBC munitions can they get for tube and rocket artillery. Two, DPICM is the wrong shape to be used as drone dropped bombets without major rework.

And Ukraine has a bunch of NATO-standard 155mm tubes for them, too.

I think that's credible (people often forget that for NATO "running out" means "the stockpile is not as big as desired", not "it's empty"). There's apparently hundreds of thousands of those cluster shells and using them is politically problematic, so sending them to Ukraine sounds like a good way to be rid of them and have them do some good.

And we are restarting production, too. And in a hurry. Its a topic that comes up a lot in A&N for obvious reasons and I wish we had a nice place for all of the posts about lines getting set up or expanded.

 

[Vince McMahon]

One and a half year in - I got pinged back to cope cage again. My case is still so buttblasting, they remind everyone about it. Because a lone hohol on Farms must surely represent whatever they've concocted in their heads about us. In this case, they were talking about how "all Ukrainians that fight do so because they don't have money to leave".

lmao

 

[mindlessobserver]

One and a half year in - I got pinged back to cope cage again. My case is still so buttblasting, they remind everyone about it. Because a lone hohol on Farms must surely represent whatever they've concocted in their heads about us. In this case, they were talking about how "all Ukrainians that fight do so because they don't have money to leave".

lmao

What is it like being a western agent in a country that does not exist?

 

[World in Scarlet]

On the topic of the grain deal Russia has been messing with since its inception and is holding hostage for unrelated issues once again, let's see what those issues are:

Russia's specific demands are that Russian Agricultural Bank (Rosselkhozbank) be reconnected to the SWIFT payment system, that supplies of agricultural machinery and parts to Russia needed to be resumed, and that restrictions on insurance and reinsurance needed to be lifted.

Other demands include the resumption of the Togliatti-Odesa ammonia pipeline that lets Russia pump the chemical to Ukraine's main Black Sea port, and the unblocking of assets and accounts of Russian companies involved in food and fertiliser exports.

source
>steal grain and agricultural machinery from Ukraine
>be allowed to sell it and use it anyway
>cry about how evil the West is
Business as usual.

Why is the pipeline shut down though?

Last month it was damaged in three places, Griffiths said, adding that the U.N. had offered to send in a team to assess it. He said both sides were interested, but a team had not yet been deployed because the pipeline damage was in an active war zone.

He said if it could be repaired then an arrangement would be needed to protect it from the war. According to the International Energy Agency, it is the world's longest ammonia pipeline at about 2,470 kilometres (1,534 miles).

"So there's lots of impediments to making that a realistic prospect immediately," Griffiths said.

source
I wonder who started this stupid war that causes so many problems for Russia.

Summary by Girkin

For the extension of the "Grain Deal" for 2 years Erdogan promised his friend Vladimir to supply additional self-propelled howitzers, open a factory for the production of "byraktars" and to support the accession of "Ukraine" to NATO. And he promised the other Vladimir that he would continue to lead him by the nose, since he liked this process so much. Since the first Vladimir didn't seem to be enough, his friend Recep added 5 more "Azovs". And the latter, in his joy, promised the Sultan a "gas hub", a nuclear power plant, and maximum financing of the programs for the Crimean Tatar people oppressed by Russian occupants*, hinting that "even more courageous and difficult decisions are possible". But on the condition that the Sultan calls him "beloved wife" one day. At least in a whisper...

source: Girkin
*

Zelenskyy said he would wait for a result to comment but made clear the discussion had gone into specifics on returning all captives including children deported to Russia and other groups.

"We are working on the return of our captives, political prisoners, Crimean Tatars," he said, referring to members of Ukraine's Muslim community in the peninsula annexed by Russia in 2014. "Our partners have all the lists. We are really working on this."

In other news, NAFO was funded by a funky fella RT described thus:

Founded by Kamil Dyszewski – a Polish Hitler-admiring anti-Semite who has showered praise on white-supremacist terrorists who committed mass shootings – NAFO has cheered the deaths of Russian civilians and fundraised for people accused of war crimes. Dyszewski has a lengthy history of posts praising Nazi Germany, insulting Jews, and denying the Holocaust.

source: Russian propaganda
I could find archives for the antisemitism and holocaust denial memes.
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]
More stuff is available as screenshots here.


On the topic of weird bedfellows: Lenin says total zigger death.

Nobody is to be blamed for being born a slave; but a slave who not only eschews a striving for freedom but justifies and eulogises his slavery (e.g., calls the throttling of Poland and the Ukraine, etc., a “defence of the fatherland” of the Great Russians)—such a slave is a lickspittle and a boor, who arouses a legitimate feeling of indignation, contempt, and loathing.
[...]
The proletarian revolution calls for a prolonged education of the workers in the spirit of the fullest national equality and brotherhood. Consequently, the interests of the Great-Russian proletariat require that the masses be systematically educated to champion—most resolutely, consistently, boldly and in a revolutionary manner—complete equality and the right to self-determination for all the nations oppressed by the Great Russians. The interests of the Great Russians’ national pride (understood, not in the slavish sense) coincide with the socialist interests of the Great-Russian (and all other) proletarians. Our model will always be Marx, who, after living in Britain for decades and becoming half-English, demanded freedom and national independence for Ireland in the interests of the socialist movement of the British workers.

Someone inform the tankies.

 

[mindlessobserver]

U.S. Cluster munitions that haven't already destroyed, were also destined to be destroyed. Since neither the United States, Russia, or Ukraine are signatories of that particular weapon ban. There's nothing stopping the U.S. from shipping those off to Ukraine, except the political will to so. Or worst case, there is maybe some truth to TPTB making this into a forever war for reasons.

There is no way this can become a forever war. Russia can at best sustain this tempo for another 2 years. At which point its stockpiles will be completely exhausted.

 

[World in Scarlet]

Kinda old news by now, but the IAEA still hasn't gotten access to the parts of the ZNPP Ukrainians claim are mined. They aren't even allowed to inspect all of the pond walls, but they can look at more now.

The IAEA experts – who in recent days and weeks have inspected parts of the facility and continued to conduct regular walkdowns across the site – were yesterday also able to check a wider section of the perimeter of the ZNPP’s large cooling pond than previously.

As part of this, they visited the isolation gate separating the cooling pond from what remains of the Kakhovka reservoir after the destruction of the downstream dam a month ago. The gate has been reinforced with counterweights and sand and there appeared to be no leakage of water from the pond. The experts also went to the gate separating the discharge channel of the nearby Zaporizhzhya Thermal Power Plant (ZTPP) from the reservoir. Both this channel and the pond hold crucial reserves of water for the ZNPP’s cooling needs.

“Following our requests, our experts have gained some additional access at the site. So far, they have not seen any mines or explosives. But they still need more access, including to the rooftops of reactor units 3 and 4 and parts of the turbine halls. I remain hopeful that this access will be granted soon. I will continue to report about developments in this regard,” Director General Grossi said.

source - 07/07/23

 

[KittyGremlin]

NAFO is a reddit invention, therefore gay.
Their memes are weak, they allow the biggest retards in and their coordination is one big clusterfuck.

Half of them grift the shit out unsuspecting normie who lack Opsec, thought to use whois.

Every single roundtable or Furry group call like meeting is embarassing and would require healthy amount of alcohol to sit through while trying to listen to a pack degenerates.

What possessed these fucks to come up with roundtable in the first place?

You don't need sophisticated memes or takes to counter Russian propaganda. IMO, NAFO isn't Reddit, it's quite normie.

 

[Uranus Pink]

There is no way this can become a forever war. Russia can at best sustain this tempo for another 2 years. At which point its stockpiles will be completely exhausted.

Russia is still manufactering new weapons, vehicles and ammunition so expecting them to rely only on pre-existing stockpiles is a fool errand. Granted what they're making is no where near replenishment levels to what already be used up and/or lost.

 

[Fanatical Pragmatist]

Russia is still manufactering new weapons, vehicles and ammunition so expecting them to rely only on pre-existing stockpiles is a fool errand. Granted what they're making is no where near replenishment levels to what already be used up and/or lost.

15,000 tanks per year according to vatniks

 

[Ghostse]

Thing is Ukraine wants to use the DPICM munitions as is. One, they need any non-NBC munitions can they get for tube and rocket artillery. Two, DPICM is the wrong shape to be used as drone dropped bombets without major rework.

Yeah, the whole "they want the bomblets for drones" is pretty clearly Journoscum fanfiction.

The only thing that could possibly be even worse for them are the Thermobaric munitions. I'm honestly surprised we've not just bitten the bullet and sent those as well.

They are probably not wanting to start the "conventional nukes" arms race because Russia has tons from Soviet stockpiles, and pearl-clutchers have really eroded the NATO stockpiles.

This got me thinking. Odds are pretty good as this war progresses Russia is going to resort to using Chemical weapons. Those soviet stockpiles of ammo are not infinite and I seriously doubt Russian Industry is able to replace what is being expended at speed. I'd say the most likely location for them to do so would be around Avdiivka . Sad truth is Xi told putin "No Nukes", but I don't think he said anything about Mustard or VX. Which begs the question how the West would react to such a thing, and more importantly just how many Chemical rounds Ukraine has squirreled away. They almost certainly have some, and will certainly use them if Russia does. Which is probably why Russia hasn't. So far.

I think Russia using Chemical Weapons is going to be an international red-line, and for Russia it would be a sure sign of weakness - if they have to resort to chemical weapons to take on Ukraine that would mean they are incapable of taking on a nation 1/4 their size.

Putin uses chemical weapons and the sort of "we don't support Russia but while we want them to settle the fuck down we aren't ANTI-Russia" low grade mouthing-the-words of support Ukraine stops and "Alright clearly they are trying to start WWIII. Let's not." begins.

Assad got away with limited Chemical Weapon deployment in Syria because A) no one cares, its just Arabs not like any people are dying and B) Syria has allies that aren't just Russia, and there isn't an international consortium just waiting for Russia to escalate the conflict so they can roll in. Syria was also pretty well isolated and embargoed for a long time before due to das juden. Russia is being throttled by sanctions, but the grip is pretty weak - deploying chemical weapons would make countries actually stop doing business with Russia instead of just talking about it.

Additionally Russia has, I believe, been pushed back entirely inside areas that they claim - the areas they'd be using Chemical weapons on would be the area they are claiming to liberate, the people most effected by any wind changes would the hearts and minds they are wanting to keep. Deploying chemical weapons is going to hurt their legitimacy and degrade local opinion.

Minor autism, but the tank destroyers were typically assigned to infantry divisions, the tank divisions not really needing them much. Further, the problems came about in combat because while pre-combat planning was conducted evenly with regard for the capabilities of tank destroyers versus tanks, in actual combat situations the boots-on-the-ground commanders would issue some very unpleasant orders, but to be fair "lightly armored box with gun" is still more armor than an infantryman had at the time, and naturally if a TD of five guys gets gibbed by a big gun in the process of saving a squad or two from fire the company commander isn't going to be particularly heartbroken since that's fewer casualties than he would have taken otherwise.

My source on that was WWII combat vets being interviewed (I believe it was a Audrey Murphy doc but not certain) and I believe it was an M-18 gunner complaining about being sent into the shit and the other TDs in his unit they lost because some Lt or Captain figured they treads and a gun, so it must be able to do whatever a tank a can do.

So maybe it was just that guy's experience, but it seemed like not.

 

[FunPosting101]

So, I've been gone for a while and I'm curious how the war's going right now? Did the summer offensive work out for the Ukrainians?

 

[Exterminatus]

No one ever addresses these to Putin, the one invading.


Ukraine high command has been largely purged of Russian agents at this point.


Again, I'm all for fighting globohomo but this isn't it. Making Ukraine more dependent on the West is spreading globohomo, not stopping it.

I would make the small contention that being attached to the west doesn't mean they have to immediately suck girl cock and have trans story time for their toddlers. Poland for instance is attached to the west but very much strives to maintain their cultural identity and Christian faith. Ukraine is still pretty strongly religious and arguably has grown a much stronger desire to maintain their culture in the face of Russia's efforts to annihilate it, hopefully they can find themselves in a similar state to the Poles and buck off most of the globohomo fuckery.

The right-wings playbook in regards to a defeat is to ignore it/doom about it, wait for the heat to die down and then act like it never happened and they never said anything in support of the losing side, and if someone brings up the defeat, ignore them or get mad at them. It's one of the many reasons why they lose because they never learn from past mistakes and failures, so this is all on par for grifters to spew out.

He's doing this because the right was hoping Ukraine would have fallen under Russia's military power by now, and the US to look weak and pathetic on the world stage through Ukraine's defeat, and it hasn't a year later. So now they're stuck hoping that Ukraine really is as weak and pathetic and disposable as they say it is, and larping as moralizers on the horror of war and how Ukraine just needs to accept their conquerors so they can finally get a win over "globohomo".

Most of the contrarian right guys also ignore that Trump gave weapons to Ukraine and even recently he still compliments Zelensky because he didn't throw him under the bus when Congress impeached him over the "infamous" phone call. Anyone that thinks Trump won't keep the weapons flowing to Ukraine if he gets back in are either delusional right wingers or Democrats that try to fear monger, if anything I think Trump would actually increase weapon shipments and wouldn't have qualms about Ukraine having ATACMS or other longer-range tools.

So, I've been gone for a while and I'm curious how the war's going right now? Did the summer offensive work out for the Ukrainians?

Still ongoing, it's been slower heading for the Ukes but they've been making gains and smoking Russian arty pretty often. The Russians had more time to dig in over the winter, so it probably won't be a big sweep unless they score some huge breakthrough that completely shatters Russian morale.

Biden's handlers have given the all-clear for American cluster munitions to be released to Ukraine after they put in a request over the past few months.