The Great Porn Debate - The Coomites vs Anti-Faparians

[im5!XxhO]

That doesn’t mean that we need to just accept the profiteering of pornographers, nor an environment which encourages this pornography use.

I challenge the notion that we live in an environment that encourages pornography use. Society is pretty indifferent to it, but you will be a weirdo if you push it publically. Unless you live with troons or other terminally online coomers it is not something that is ever mentioned. You either do it or you don't and you certainly don't talk about it because nobody gives a fuck.

Banning things makes them less accessible. Legalising weed has made it used significantly more.

Just look at how great middle eastern countries are at banning porn. It does fuck all. Not even the great firewall nation of China has much success with their crackdowns on porn and camming. Life finds a way.

You’re reducing a person to a sexual object and denying universal human dignity

If they sell their body how is it the consumer doing the reducing? Surely in that case, it's the person themself doing that. So fundamentally the argument has to be that you are not even allowed to reduce yourself to a "sexual object" (whatever the fuck that would be). While I think it is the worst career choice you can make, I am not going to advocate for daddy government to fix bad decision making.

 

[AgendaPoster]

My opposition to pornography is purely intellectual.

What sort of eternal, dedicated coomer does one have to be to negrate this

 

[Spud]

What sort of eternal, dedicated coomer does one have to be to negrate this

Anyone who claims their point is intellectual are dunning kruigers and deserve ridicule.

 

[Devout Muslim]

Trying to equalise porn with CP is insane and degrades from the horror of the latter. Druggies destroying their body for money is acceptable since they are at an age where they are expected to live with their decisions. Heck, where do you draw the line between porn actors, twitch thots and YouTube amateur stuntmen?

I didn’t didn’t say that. ISPs already block websites used to host videos of child pornography. It’s not a step change for them to start blocking all websites used to host pornography it’s just a change of scope. You’re being hysterical by suggesting it’s going to usher in mass censorship.

Drawn/3d animated porn exists, would you ban that as well? How about fake people made with A.I. imaging?

The content is inherently bad. The exploitation of the women involved in its production is another issue.

Society is pretty indifferent to it, but you will be a weirdo if you push it publically.

You’re probably right.

If they sell their body how is it the consumer doing the reducing?

Obviously the subjects of the content are being degraded in a literal sense during the creation of the content. The more relevant part is the degradation that is being undertaken in the psyche of the consumer.

Anyone who claims their point is intellectual are dunning kruigers and deserve ridicule.

I was replying specifically to the other poster accusing me of being motivated by being mad. I said my opposition to it was intellectual (i.e. not coming from a place of personal experience or emotion). I didn’t say I was an intellectual.

 

[Shart Attack]

How many porn debate threads does one website need? It's weird how many people using Kiwi Farms -- a site that has trouble staying online because of authoritarian control freaks who want to ban what they claim is immoral, harmful (or personally inconvenient) material -- are themselves authoritarian control freaks who want to ban porn. I notice the ones taking the authoritarian "ban what I personally find distasteful" approach spell things the European/Canadian way. Imagine my surprise.

Most of these arguments against porn could also apply to alcohol:

I think the arguments in favour of it have been a bit lame. “It would be hard to ban” and “you’re an addict who can’t generalise beyond your own experience” are just weak attacks on people who oppose it.

The negative effects of [alcohol] are pernicious so for most people casual exposure isn’t going to lead to a negative opinion... You need major exposure for the effects to be super obvious. That’s why most people opposed have ideological reasons (religion, feminism, etc.) or were personally harmed by [alcohol].

It is a pernicious influence on interpersonal relationships and should be removed from society to the greatest extent possible.

You can’t banish [alcohol] from existence, so personal responsibility will always matter. That doesn’t mean that we need to just accept the profiteering of [brewers], nor an environment which encourages this [alcohol] use.

Government attempts to crack down on other vices like alcohol have been ineffectual at best and fucking disastrous at worst, creating thriving black markets and ruining or ending lives, so I don't know why anyone imagines a ban on porn would work out any better.

Also it's not the government's place to tell a consenting adult what they can or can't consume. Really, that's the only argument I care about. I don't think a room full of out-of-touch, bloodthirsty, amoral, authoritarian psychopaths who hate us should have the power to tell an adult they can't consent to watching consenting adults fuck on camera.

 

[Pentex]

You’re reducing a person to a sexual object and denying universal human dignity.

Whores and coomers have no dignity, which makes them a perfect internet match for each other.

 

[Spud]

Kiwi Farms -- a site that has trouble staying online because of authoritarian control freaks who want to ban what they claim is immoral, harmful (or personally inconvenient) material -- are themselves authoritarian control freaks who want to ban porn.

Boobies bad, calling people nigger good.

 

[Otis Mallebrok]

I think pornography is harmful in the extreme. Both to consumers, producers and society in general. It commodifies relationships and sexuality, and it creates addiction to immediate sexual gratification. And it also creates and enhances deviancy, as the coombrained junkie requires stronger and stronger doses to get a high. Its like if an opioid was available as an image on a website. It would be a disaster.

Pornography also creates a wildly unrealistic image of human bodies, sexuality and erotic behavior. And I daresay it does nothing good to young people who goes through puberty, in an environment saturated with the most degenerate porn imaginable. It normalizes perversion and hedonism.

And its not only pornography. I think the wide availability of contraception has done some harm as well, by allowing people to engage in consequence-free hedonism without commitment and emotional attachment. Contraception also has had some positive effects, but the cost is rarely mentioned. Men used to go through life, working hard to win the approval of women, and I think it made us better men. Now you can just stick it in, and then ghost her. Or even worse, just watch pornography, and never engage with other humans.

I think it is also safe to assume, that the production of pornography involves a lot of abuse, loss of dignity, and human commodification. I do not for a second think that Sex-work is Work, like any other job. I think more often sexwork is exploitation and humiliation of the unfortunate.

Lastly, I do not trust government to ban porn. This is a power that government will certainly use to control information for many other purposes, and for many nefarious purposes. But I still wish that pornography was banned somehow. It should have never been unbanned.

TLDR: Porno very bad, government also bad

 

[NerdShamer]

How many porn debate threads does one website need? It's weird how many people using Kiwi Farms -- a site that has trouble staying online because of authoritarian control freaks who want to ban what they claim is immoral, harmful (or personally inconvenient) material -- are themselves authoritarian control freaks who want to ban porn

The site is an retard magnet for one reason or another and the debate threads are usually worth an read for when you're bored.

 

[Lone Wandering Courier]

It commodifies relationships and sexuality

If anything it's family courts and modern day marriage laws that does this.

And it also creates and enhances deviancy, as the coombrained junkie requires stronger and stronger doses to get a high. Its like if an opioid was available as an image on a website. It would be a disaster.

Once again this claim gets thrown around as if it were at all true. Also people die from opiod overdoes, nobody has died from wacking it to porn.

Pornography also creates a wildly unrealistic image of human bodies, sexuality and erotic behavior.

Most people are able to tell fantasy from reality. Though maybe expecting people to take basic care of themselves and not be deathfats is an "unrealistic" image in 2023.

 

[Ultrapenguin]

How many porn debate threads does one website need? It's weird how many people using Kiwi Farms -- a site that has trouble staying online because of authoritarian control freaks who want to ban what they claim is immoral, harmful (or personally inconvenient) material -- are themselves authoritarian control freaks who want to ban porn. I notice the ones taking the authoritarian "ban what I personally find distasteful" approach spell things the European/Canadian way. Imagine my surprise.

I suspect on KF you have an intersection of two retarded positions not acceptable on a lot of other sites that lend themselves to obsessing over porn: you've got angry feminists (especially terfs), and reactionary conservatives.
Both demographics tend to be perpetually mad, sexually unfulfilled weirdos who have a complex surrounding the issue, for one reason or another.

Also because the attitude of the modern internet is generally pretty pro-porn, they see it as countercultural to take a hardline anti-porn stance.

Plus with KF as one of the few internet forum holdouts, you're going to get a lot of the terminally online with poor self control who don't really have much to do with their day except obsess over their dicks, whether they're touching them, not touching them, what they're touching them to, etc. So they have a lot of baggage wrapped up in the issue.

Masturbation is the one thing even idiots can have an opinion on.


Don't get me wrong, I agree it's a good idea to not watch porn, it's not like it's going to benefit you or make you feel better somehow, but I swear to god sometimes it feels like you should just on principle to slight the anti-porn people for being such sanctimonious fags.

 

[Mothra1988]

You’re reducing a person to a sexual object

>Muslim username
>spouts retarded sex-negative, anti-choice feminist propaganda from the 1970's that was rolled back during the 90's

This is a parody account right? You can't be serious here. No one is this dumb.

The internet is no longer the wild west it once was.

That's a bad thing, not a goal you should be striving towards. The irony of the fact you are saying this from "the most censored website in the world" cannot be lost on you. Please tell me you are not this stupid.

I think the crime should be in the production and transmission of the material. Possession should either be legal or a minor offence.

Absolute evidence you are a VIRGIN and have never had a serious sexual relationship with another human being in this century. You would be arresting a lot of couples just having fun for "production" in that case. No, I don't think honeymooners should go to prison because some kissless internet autist doesn't know how to "walk away form the screen, nigga." Fuck off, weirdo.

Nobody is suggesting that free speech should be illegal.

Free speech includes speech you don't like. Juries refuse to charge people for obscenity for porn, and have refused to do so for probably 50 years because the jurors aren't internet retards like yourself. It's legal speech.

As I originally stated, all you do is make slanderous claims about the character of anybody who is anti-porn. Why are you so personally invested?

Not slanderous when it's true. It's all over you. You've never been in a relationship.

It’s degrading to the consumer.

It's not a decision of yours to make what is degrading for who. You used the word consumer. If you don't like something, then don't consume it, genius.

Censorship for political reasons is already normalised.

Censorship by the government is supposed to be illegal. The fact you want to make it legal is insane.

 

[Mothra1988]

Just look at how great middle eastern countries are at banning porn.

Reminder for our "Muslim" friend here, even the most supposed hardcore Muslim ever, Osama Bin Laden, had a big porn stash. lol

 

[Devout Muslim]

>Muslim username
>spouts retarded sex-negative, anti-choice feminist propaganda from the 1970's that was rolled back during the 90's

Reminder for our "Muslim" friend here

Obviously the Sinead O’Connor joke is lost on you. Not surprising given how stupid you are.

That's a bad thing, not a goal you should be striving towords. The irony of the fact you are saying this from "the most censored website in the world" cannot be lost on you. Please tell me you are not this stupid.

Saying ‘muh kiwifarms oppression’ is dumb. Even Null has said that he doesn’t consider himself a free speech absolutist as such and has expressed skepticism about pornography being considered free expression.

Free speech includes speech you don't like. Juries refuse to charge people for obscenity for porn, and have refused to do so for probably 50 years because the jurors aren't internet retards like yourself. It's legal speech.

Porn isn’t free speech and no about of “muh vox populi vox dei sez its protected speech” is going to change that.

Most of these arguments against porn could also apply to alcohol

Yes, and alcohol is incredibly regulated. If you even inadvertently provide alcohol to a minor you will face major fines in most jurisdictions. You might lose your license to sell alcohol.

Government attempts to crack down on other vices like alcohol have been ineffectual at best and fucking disastrous at worst, creating thriving black markets and ruining or ending lives, so I don't know why anyone imagines a ban on porn would work out any better.

What’s ineffectual or disastrous about drink driving laws or liquor licensing? It seems pretty effective.

are themselves authoritarian control freaks who want to ban porn

Not really, I don’t have strong feelings about banning it. I said it was bad and was barraged with a bunch of people explaining why banning it won’t work. It was within that context that I engaged in the discussion of a ban could work, because I think it is possible. Realistically, financial interests and a lack of political will make that irrelevant.

It’s the pro-porn mindset which perceives any moral opposition to porn as attempts to ban it. Not surprising. Porn use causes neuroticism.

 

[Mothra1988]

Obviously the Sinead O’Connor joke is lost on you. Not surprising given how stupid you are.

Okay, so let me get this, you think a good clap-back is that I didn't recognize Sinead O'Connor in your avatar to "get" a "Sinead O'Connor joke," someone who literally hasn't been relevant since an appearance on SNL in fucking 1992 when I was a small child? So you're admitting you're probably 45-50 years old and still a virgin? Wow, that's pretty sad. No wonder you're so mad at regular people. LOL.

Saying ‘muh kiwifarms oppression’ is dumb. Even Null has said that he doesn’t consider himself a free speech absolutist as such and has expressed skepticism about pornography being considered free expression.

It doesn't matter, because it is free expression in the United States. The fact you want to give the feds the tools to attack everyone here is still extremely retarded. KF is not a cult. People here don't have to agree with everything the site owner says.

Yes, and alcohol is incredibly regulated. If you even inadvertently provide alcohol to a minor you will face major fines in most jurisdictions. You might lose your license to sell alcohol.

Speech isn't alcohol, stupid. Also the only one bringing up minors here is you, repeatedly. You seem to have some kind of fixation here.

What’s ineffectual or disastrous about drink driving laws or liquor licensing? It seems pretty effective.

Is this all you have? Some midwit strawman argument you're trying to drag people into because you can't say that porn isn't legal based on the US court system? Current SCOTUS is also rather pro-speech. So this will not change anytime soon I'm afraid.

Not really, I don’t have strong feelings about banning it. I said it was bad and was barraged with a bunch of people explaining why banning it won’t work. It was within that context that I engaged in the discussion of a ban could work, because I think it is possible. Realistically, financial interests and a lack of political will make that irrelevant.

It won't work, and shouldn't work, because the internet/speech shouldn't be censored by the government.

Porn use causes neuroticism.

What causes your autism exactly?

 

[Devout Muslim]

It won't work, and shouldn't work, because the internet/speech shouldn't be censored by the government.

You think child pornography is free speech.

 

[End Game]

I can understand why people would want porn banned.

Giving the government the power it would need to get rid of it is retarded. Which would include as evidenced by the happenings thread about it, universal online I.D. systems.

If you seriously advocate for the banning of pornography online, you're also advocating for the government to work with companies to make it impossible to be anonymous online. Spin whatever sophist horseshit you want, you cannot logically overcome the necessity of such a system to completely eradicate it from the web especially given as it's the policy du jour right now that all the western governments are champing at the bit to put into place.

We already ban CP, and no enforced widespread de-anonymization has been needed. Because of how successful we have been at culturally and legally opposing CP, it has become very hard to find.

From a technical POV, it can be done to porn in general. Regardless of what we as a collective find too unacceptable to be published online, there are methods of tracking down and shutting down such content, regardless of what it is. These methods have been used for a while to remove CP.

The problem isn't technical, the problem is cultural.

Drawn/3d animated porn exists, would you ban that as well? How about fake people made with A.I. imaging?

While drawn/3d does not involve real people, which is a big plus, it can be more degenerate than real-life porn. You can literally visualize anything (like the hentai tentacle monster meme). Although I have no proof of this, it wouldn't surprise me if drawn/3d porn can be more stimulating than real-life porn.

And what the fuck is "universal human dignity"? This entire fucking website is, among other things, a testament to the fact that dignity is not universal. Some people have no dignity by their own volition.

I think what he meant was that human beings are dignified by default, which is true. Then, as you said, they can choose to degrade themselves.

 

[Mothra1988]

You think child pornography is free speech.

We already ban CP, and no enforced widespread de-anonymization has been needed. Because of how successful we have been in culturally and legally opposing CP, it has become very hard to find.

So now you two intellectual lightweights have moved onto the most retarded bullshit strawman possible, I'm assuming you're admitting the argument is over and you lost. "Dude, why is eating animal meat legal, when eating human flesh is banned?" Fucking retards, the both of you. lol

 

[LurkTrawl]

We already ban CP, and no enforced widespread de-anonymization has been needed.

Because the vast majority of people, thank God, aren't interested in seeing children raped. It's a problem of scale and supply, there's a fuckload more pornography for non-pedophiles available on the internet, and available to share/sell digitally, than there is CP.

While drawn/3d does not involve real people, which is a big plus, it can be more degenerate than real-life porn. You can literally visualize anything (like the hentai tentacle monster meme).

Bolded part for emphasis. You know before the internet people still jacked off right? You don't need a visual aid unless you're suffering from aphantasia, sort of making this entire argument moot.

And frankly I find porn disgusting too, especially the fetish stuff. Arguably the worst is DDLG. (Dumb Dickheads for Larger Government)

 

[Devout Muslim]

So now you two intellectual lightweights have moved onto the most retarded bullshit strawman possible, "Dude, why is eating animal meat legal, when eating human flesh is banned?" Fucking retards, the both of you. lol

You said pornography should be legal because it is free speech per se. You think the Government shouldn’t censor any pornography. That’s exactly what every pedophile says about child porn.

If somebody just likes pornography, that’s whatever, it’s their prerogative to be wrong. If they think it’s an expression of “free speech”, like you do, then they’re probably Digibro.

I'm assuming you're admitting the argument is over and you lost

I thought this was a discussion thread. I’m happy to reply to other people but I’m going to ignore you.