Should the world censor Lolicon?

[Male Idiot]

All that is well and informative, I'm just skeptical that online rape fetish communities don't exist.

Without powerleveling, I know I accidentally stumbled onto a few back in the days of Old Internet and back then was shocked at how widespread they were (and it wasn't just fetish porn and fiction--I recall distinctly one guy had huge essays about why we should have a "right" to women's bodies. The guy was bald and really liked the bald tough guy aesthetic).

It's just hard to believe these people completely disappeared. More likely they're all on the darknet.

Islamophobe!

 

[skykiii]

We should ban anything unpronounceable,

CTHULHU F'TAGHN!

The irony is Japanese words are some of the easiest to pronounce, westerners (or at least Americans) are just lazy and retarded and can't spare five minutes to look up a quick and dirty guide.

Chinese, now, that's a language where the rules are almost as fucktarded as English.

 

[Odd Opossum]

Lolicon is used a replacement for real life child porn by pedophiles online because of the increased attention and scrutiny shown towards them compared to the "Wild West Internet" days.

All that is well and informative, I'm just skeptical that online rape fetish communities don't exist.

Without powerleveling, I know I accidentally stumbled onto a few back in the days of Old Internet and back then was shocked at how widespread they were (and it wasn't just fetish porn and fiction--I recall distinctly one guy had huge essays about why we should have a "right" to women's bodies. The guy was bald and really liked the bald tough guy aesthetic).

It's just hard to believe these people completely disappeared. More likely they're all on the darknet.

I always have to laugh whenever people act like online child grooming and pedophiles are somehow worse now compared to the internet of the past, where it was somewhat normalized for people to spam child porn for trolling purposes and you'd get laughed at and called a moralfag for thinking it was disgusting.

 

[Flaming Insignias]

Obviously I think that pedos should be shot and that lolicon is scummy, but the trend with "anti-lolicon" measures being used as excuses to ban all anime and the amount of people that claim that adult women with big tits are lolis, I'm going to err on the side of caution on the idea of banning anything other than what is obviously a drawing of a child engaging in sexual activity.

 

[jertzog]

Not my culture. Not my problem.
If you don't like it, stop paying attention to Japanese stuff. Otherwise, let them be.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Not my culture. Not my problem.
If you don't like it, stop paying attention to Japanese stuff. Otherwise, let them be.

I think we should still condemn it though, but otherwise yeah, let them be.

 

[Loomer the Bully]

I love how the conversation always steers towards "legality". Never the actual safety of the people around these consumers. Let's be honest, the material might not be possible to be outlawed, but I bet that a big majority of people would agree to have the names and faces of these people on a public list, just so that they could stay as far way from them as possible.

At the end of the day. Most of the online lolicons are shameless in their fanaticism for this shit.

Food for thought

 

[The Lizard Queen]

It's definitely a fine balancing act. I support going after anyone using actual underage human beings for pornographic content, but going after illustrated art, even offensive art, is a dangerous slippery slope.

Besides, I'm an extremely short person, so I feel like I have a horse in this race. All the moral panic about short people being used in art as code for "underage" is getting ridiculous to the point where any drawing of a short person is getting called "Loli."

 

[Loomer the Bully]

It's definitely a fine balancing act. I support going after anyone using actual underage human beings for pornographic content, but going after illustrated art, even offensive art, is a dangerous slippery slope.

Besides, I'm an extremely short person, so I feel like I have a horse in this race. All the moral panic about short people being used in art as code for "underage" is getting ridiculous to the point where any drawing of a short person is getting called "Loli."

Well, you really have no one to blame but the lolicon people. Advertisers literally can't market their media by going "by the way there's a little girl in a bikini wink wink", it's a guaranteed death sentence to say there's sexual depictions of children, even if it's legal. So, they take the route of "no they're 100 year old dragons, they're just really small people, they have the bodies of children but the minds of adults". It's all just a minefield of trying to cater to a market that, apparently is profitable, without making normal customers feel uncomfortable about buying shit.

 

[BananaSplit²]

I love how the conversation always steers towards "legality". Never the actual safety of the people around these consumers [...] but I bet that a big majority of people would agree to have the names and faces of these people on a public list, just so that they could stay as far way from them as possible.

About your idea, we might as well make a public list of consumers who are into shooting games so that "people could stay as far away as possible" for their "safety" in case they could eventually be mass-shooters deep inside. That could be useful in America because of dem ebil guns wink wink.

I can think of different variants of your idea, but imagine wanting to legally criminalize and punish people who are into whatever specific brand of fictional stuff, instead of simply making fun of them lmao.

I enjoy japanese yuri (girl x girl romance) in manga & games but that doesn't mean I ever support LGBT whatsoever because I can clearly differentiate fiction from reality. The ones that cannot make the distinction between fiction & real are either mentally ill or the malicious kind who deflect and serve an agenda.

It's definitely a fine balancing act. I support going after anyone using actual underage human beings for pornographic content, but going after illustrated art, even offensive art, is a dangerous slippery slope.

Besides, I'm an extremely short person, so I feel like I have a horse in this race. All the moral panic about short people being used in art as code for "underage" is getting ridiculous to the point where any drawing of a short person is getting called "Loli."

A lot of old slang lost their original meaning with the current state of modern Internet. I still remember "waifu" in the 2000's used to mean a 2D character that you (mentally) bind yourself body and soul, like a religious icon, and not applying it to every pretty 2D female character these days.

Although this problem is not exclusive to Internet slang, english words are just thrown around to raise an instant emotional and hysterical response out of people instead of being cool-headed. The slippery slope gets mentioned because it's possible to label anything as despicable (to have it banned) and virtually nobody would bother to disapprove and double-check.

It sorta boggles my mind those old men get mad at young-looking pretty characters, in fictional media most often aimed for (japanese) teens.
But the main problem I have with this whole ordeal is not that they ban the undesired content from being published within their own countries, but they try at multiple times to pressure and stifle artistic freedom straight in the country of origin, Japan, with "loli" as the eternal scapegoat.

I guess it's far much easier and low-risk to target mere drawings, in addition to show everyone how much of a goody-two-shoes fighter you are, than going after actual child trafficking. I believe that if even a mere fragment of the vitriol against loli/shota characters and their japanese creators was instead used against individuals and groups (even our own institutions) harming real children, our world would already be a far better place.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

About your idea, we might as well make a public list of consumers who are into shooting games so that "people could stay as far away as possible" for their "safety" in case they could eventually be mass-shooters deep inside.

Sex and violence are not interchangeable. And you know, even if we were to assume they are perfectly equivalent for such a comparison, I do think some violence is excessive. Gangster rap should be illegal, for example.

I enjoy japanese yaoi (guy x guy romance) in manga & games but that doesn't mean I ever support LGBT whatsoever because I can clearly differentiate fiction from reality.

And would you not call someone a faggot if they said this? Fiction is not always entirely divorced from reality, it can reflect real world desires and interests, especially in the realm of sex. Not always, but often. To say there's no correlation ever would be disingenuous.

But the main problem I have with this whole ordeal is not that they ban the undesired content from being published within their own countries, but they try at multiple times to pressure and stifle artistic freedom straight in the country of origin, Japan, with "loli" as the eternal scapegoat.

Yeah, playing world police is something we really need to stop doing so much, granted.

 

[BananaSplit²]

Sex and violence are not interchangeable. And you know, even if we were to assume they are perfectly equivalent for such a comparison, I do think some violence is excessive. Gangster rap should be illegal, for example.

My point was more that wanting to label people as criminals for enjoying whatever fiction, in spite of endangering no real person, is rather a dangerous and dystopian thing to ever consider. A different variant of his idea would be putting everyone on the sexual offender list is they ever dare(d), at any point of their life, to be captivated by 2D girls. Poor Timmy shouldn't have lusted after Lyn from Fire Emblem, 80's She-Hulk, or Yoruichi from Bleach, he must be likely a rapist and an enemy of women by now!

It's feasibly impossible to enforce thankfully, but I don't believe he did think his idea throughout despite we see how obscenity and hate speech laws have originally started and where they are at now. I wouldn't be surprised if some folks in the localization staff of japanese media have those sinister fantasies as well, considering how much they hate the media they work in bringing over. Again those adults get upset at the presence of young characters in teen's media because they do the mistake to self-insert themselves and get uncomfortable as a result.

I maintain the opinion that as long as no real person, even a child, has been directly involved and exploited, fictional works should be allowed to have "degenerate" content. Nobody is forced to like them, and they can be criticized and mocked down of course.

And would you not call someone a faggot if they said this? Fiction is not always entirely divorced from reality, it can reflect real world desires and interests, especially in the realm of sex. Not always, but often. To say there's no correlation ever would be disingenuous.

Fiction remains separate because it's possible to create whatever in said fiction, to one's liking, as nothing there is bound by the laws of reality.
As far as I'm aware there are (sadly) no giant cool super-robots and pretty dark elves/kitsune women in real-life. That's not gonna stop people to make fictional works about them regardless.

And I like yuri for the "flowery" romance atmosphere in addition to the appealing artstyles, things you're not gonna see in their western equivalents these days. It's entirely fine to make fun of a grown-ass man like me to enjoy this kind of stuff though. Likewise for anyone who is into yaoi which happens to be mainly women.

Yeah, playing world police is something we really need to stop doing so much, granted.

Bear in mind I'm neither american or anglo, and I'm someone who follows the related fields of fine art, illustration, sequential art, etc. hence my position on the matter.

If the USA and other english-based countries want to ban anime & japshit all together because it goes against their own sensibilities, so be it, but they shouldn't drag the rest of the world with them.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

My point was more that wanting to label people as criminals for enjoying whatever fiction, in spite of endangering no real person, is rather a dangerous and dystopian thing to ever consider.

Maybe not criminals per se, but it's certainly not unreasonable for society to draw it's own conclusions.

Fiction remains separate because it's possible to create whatever in said fiction, to one's liking, as nothing there is bound by the laws of reality.
As far as I'm aware there are (sadly) no giant cool super-robots and pretty dark elves/kitsune women in real-life. That's not gonna stop people to make fictional works about them regardless.

And I like yuri for the "flowery" romance atmosphere in addition to the appealing artstyles, things you're not gonna see in their western equivalents these days. It's entirely fine to make fun of a grown-ass man like me to enjoy this kind of stuff though. Likewise for anyone who is into yaoi which happens to be mainly women.

I can't help but notice you didn't quite answer the question.

Well, you're a man, so that's a fairly normal thing to like, I won't make fun of you for it at all. But if a man is into male on male relations, sorry but said dude is a fag.

Bear in mind I'm neither american or anglo, and I'm someone who follows the related fields of fine art, illustration, sequential art, etc. hence my position on the matter.

If the USA and other english-based countries want to ban anime & japshit all together because it goes against their own sensibilities, so be it, but they shouldn't drag the rest of the world with them.

I understand. I agree.

 

[Spud]

ATF(no not that one)

That ATF as well. They at least kill the kids before doing it

 

[Male Idiot]

I fully support slapping an 18 plus label on yuri and having it in the no kids section.

But I find the reeing from antis to be this:
-You like this big tiddy drawing of a 17 year old? Pedo!
-You don't want 5 year olds to get their dongs chopped off? Nazi!

One is degenerate and naughty but ha, ms no one the other outright monstrous and causes real harm to prepubescent kids. Equalling the two devalues the harm real cp does.

Lolis are gross in a sexual context but nowhere near the level of real life lgbt predators.

 

[Flaming Insignias]

-You like this big tiddy drawing of a 17 year old? Pedo!

At risk of sounding like a pedo (or whatever term they use for teenagers), this is probably my biggest concern about banning "loli." Slippery slopes are real, and suddenly the ban against lewd depictions of character that look like 12-year-olds (whether or not they are immortal and mentally mature is irrelevant in my opinion) will escalate to banning any art depicting even late teenagers with adult proportions because somebody got too caught up on the number given for a drawing's age. Take Yoko Littner, for instance. Supposedly, this girl:

Spoiler: Boobs

is only 14 (though the writers also apparently said she may be closer to 16 due to bad timekeeping by underground societies) and going by the popular sentiment on censoring any sexually provocative character below the Age of Depiction, Gurren Lagann would have to be banned. Similarly, to use the exact example you demonstrated, Kill la Kill would also have to be banned, because Ryuko Matoi is 17 years old and spends most of the series looking like this:

Spoiler: More Boobs

Amplifying my frustration with this is the fact that most of the "lolice" types that will lose their shit if you even draw a traditionally loli-ish character as a grown woman are also often people that will get up in arms if you suggest that grade-schoolers shouldn't be taught about sexually explicit subjects or basically groomed into dangerous behaviors associated with the modern Alphabet Sexualities (they never have stopped talking about "cracking eggs"). As bad as it may be to make drawings of little girls in lewd circumstances, I feel that harming real children is far worse. So as you yourself said earlier:

Lolis are gross in a sexual context but nowhere near the level of real life lgbt predators.