Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

I came across an interesting speech by Ron Paul about US funding of the revolution in Ukraine. No, not the 2014 revolution, but the Orange Revolution of 2004.

What's even more interesting is that Viktor Yushchenko's party that came to power worked closely with the United National Movement, the Georgian party led by Mikheil Saakashvili that came to power through the "Rose Revolution" in the same year.
Mr. Chairman: President Bush said last week that, "Any election (in Ukraine), if there is one, ought to be free from any foreign influence." I agree with the President wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, it seems that several U.S. government agencies saw things differently and sent U.S. taxpayer dollars into Ukraine in attempt to influence the outcome.​
We do not know exactly how many millions - or tens of millions - of dollars the United States government spent on the presidential election in Ukraine. We do know that much of that money was targeted to assist one particular candidate, and that through a series of cut-out non-governmental organizations (NGOs) - both American and Ukrainian - millions of dollars ended up in support of the presidential candidate, Viktor Yushchenko.

Let me add that I do not think we should be supporting either of the candidates. While I am certainly no supporter of Viktor Yushchenko, I am not a supporter of his opponent, Viktor Yanukovich, either. Simply, it is none of our business who the Ukrainian people select to be their president. And, if they feel the vote was not fair, it is up to them to work it out.
How did this one-sided US funding in Ukraine come about? While I am afraid we may have seen only the tip of the iceberg, one part that we do know thus far is that the U.S. government, through the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), granted millions of dollars to the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), which is administered by the U.S.-based Freedom House.

PAUCI then sent U.S. Government funds to numerous Ukrainian non-governmental organizations (NGOs). This would be bad enough and would in itself constitute meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation. But, what is worse is that many of these grantee organizations in Ukraine are blatantly in favor of presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko.
Consider the Ukrainian NGO International Centre for Policy Studies. It is an organization funded by the U.S. Government through PAUCI, but on its website you will find that the front page in the English section features a prominent orange ribbon, the symbol of Yushchenko's party and movement. Reading further on, we discover that this NGO was founded by George Soros's Open Society Institute. And further on we can see that Viktor Yushchenko himself sits on the advisory board!

And this NGO is not the only one the U.S. government funds that is openly supportive of Viktor Yushchenko. The Western Ukraine Regional Training Center, as another example, features a prominent USAID logo on one side of its website's front page and an orange ribbon of the candidate Yushchenko's party and movement on the other. By their proximity, the message to Ukrainian readers is clear: the U.S. government supports Yushchenko.

The Center for Political and Law Reforms, another Ukrainian NGO funded by the U.S. government, features a link at the top of its website's front page to Viktor Yushchenko's personal website. Yushchenko's picture is at the top of this US government funded website.

This May, the Virginia-based private management consultancy Development Associates, Inc., was awarded $100 million by the US government "for strengthening national legislatures and other deliberative bodies worldwide." According to the organization's website, several million dollars from this went to Ukraine in advance of the elections.
As I have said, this may only be the tip of the iceberg. There may be many more such organizations involved in this twisted tale.
It is clear that a significant amount of U.S. taxpayer dollars went to support one candidate in Ukraine. Recall how most of us felt when it became known that the Chinese government was trying to funnel campaign funding to a U.S. presidential campaign. This foreign funding of American elections is rightly illegal. Yet, it appears that that is exactly what we are doing abroad. What we do not know, however, is just how much U.S. government money was spent to influence the outcome of the Ukrainian election.
Dozens of organizations are granted funds under the PAUCI program alone, and this is only one of many programs that funneled dollars into Ukraine. We do not know how many millions of U.S. taxpayer dollars the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) sent to Ukraine through NED's National Democratic Institute and International Republican Institute. Nor do we know how many other efforts, overt or covert, have been made to support one candidate over the other in Ukraine.

That is what I find so disturbing: there are so many cut-out organizations and sub-grantees that we have no idea how much U.S. government money was really spent on Ukraine, and most importantly how it was spent. Perhaps the several examples of blatant partisan support that we have been able to uncover are but an anomaly. I believe Congress and the American taxpayers have a right to know. I believe we urgently need an investigation by the Government Accounting Office into how much U.S. government money was spent in Ukraine and exactly how it was spent. I would hope very much for the support of Chairman Hyde, Chairman Lugar, Deputy Assistant Secretary Tefft, and my colleagues on the Committee in this request.
President Bush is absolutely correct: elections in Ukraine should be free of foreign influence. It is our job here and now to discover just how far we have violated this very important principle, and to cease any funding of political candidates or campaigns henceforth.
https://archive.md/vekB3#selection-23.0-23.45
https://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa97187.000/hfa97187_0f.htm
 
I don't know why this cracked me up just now:

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Can't believe the Poles cucked out and voted this twat in, just imagine if PiS didn't go full retard on Russia, knew their history and thus knew the Ukrainians have never been friends of the Poles, then they would still be in power. And he's saying we all have to mobilise to help this corrupt shithole? How about you first Mr. Tusk.
Young ones don't remember Tusk's previous prime ministership and consider PiS a party of cringe hicks, which to be fair they are. PiS's founder campaigned on fighting corruption, thievery and nepotism in 2006 or so and did exactly the same things what he was accusing his opponents of. Tusk was a supposedly fiscally liberal candidate who first raised VAT, then started the Polish War on Drugs after the tax hike got a very negative reception. Both PiS and Tusk are shit spigots and Poland is way less based and redpilled than you might assume. The real power in Poland is the Catholic Church, BTW.
Tusk going full retard suprises me; the consensus among older people is that Tusk is gonna sell Poland to Russia and Germany simultaneously for... some reason. Don't expect much reason from people having trouble remembering their phone number or how to count to 10.
I tolerated PiS despite hating their fucking guts thanks to their 0 immigration stance, but they let millions of Ukrainians here thus creating a loud minority that will eventually split the country apart and I voted accordingly. PiS had a stance of "vote for anything but Tusk" but people were so fed up they decided to vote for anything but PiS. Good fucking riddance.
If he really wants to help both Ukraine and Poland he can ship back the million+ fighting-age Ukrainians who fled there when Russia invaded. All Western countries should, that's literally what "mobilization" means. I can't believe nobody has pressed the officials on this. How many millions of men are sitting on the dole in various European countries while women and old men are forced to the front?
No one's gonna send back any Ukrainians anytime soon thanks to UE's retarded immigration laws. They can't deport Muslims openly torching shit, no way in hell are they gonna deport Ukrainians who are here legally and keep a low profile.
Dole is not a problem, you can literally print money at this point or grab a loan from Chinese since nobody seems to care. The problem is finding competent people who will take your money to do important shit, like maintaining infrastructure - you can't just "import" some goat-herder from Yemen and expect him to repair a nuclear power plant, no matter how much money you're willing to give him.
 
Not sure if it has been posted before, but here’s an article by Seymour Hersh, who has previously written quite a bit about the Nordstream pipeline sabotage.


It’s been a rough couple of months for President Joe Biden and his feckless foreign policy team. Israel is going its own way in its war against Hamas, with renewed bombing in Gaza, and the American public is bitterly divided, all of which is reflected in polls that continue to be unfavorable to the White House.
Meanwhile, the president and his foreign policy aides have also been left on the outside as serious peace talks between Russia and Ukraine have rapidly gained momentum.
“Everyone in Europe is talking about this”—the peace talks—an American businessman who spent years dealing with high-level Ukrainian diplomatic and military issues in the government told me earlier this week. “But there are lots of questions between a ceasefire and a settlement.” The veteran journalist Anataol Lieven wrote this week that the battlefield situation in Ukraine and thus “a ceasefire and negotiations for a peace settlement are becoming more and more necessary for Ukraine.” He said that it was “exceptionally difficult” for the Ukrainian government headed by Volodymyr Zelensky to agree to talks, given its repeated refusal to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin.
The driving force of those talks has not been Washington or Moscow, or Biden or Putin, but instead the two high-ranking generals who run the war, Valery Gerasimov of Russia and Valery Zaluzhny of Ukraine.
The ingredient that triggered the private talks is a shared understanding that Putin would not object to a settlement that fixed borders according to where the troops were in place when the peace talks ended. Russia would be left with unchallenged control of Crimea and, pending an election to be held under martial law in March, with essential control of the four provinces, or oblasts, that Russia annexed last year: Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and the still embattled Kherson. In return—in a concession not foreseen—Russia, that is, Putin himself, would not object to Ukraine joining NATO.
In a November 1 interview in the Economist: Valery Zaluzhny, commander-in-chief of the Ukraine army, stunned the editors by acknowledging that his war with Russia is “into a stalemate. It would take a massive technological leap to break the deadlock.” The general revealed that his troops had advanced by less than eleven miles since the much advertised Ukrainian counteroffensive against Russia got under way early last summer. “There will be most likely no deep and beautiful breakthrough,” Zaluzhny said. “The simple fact is that we see everything that the enemy is doing and they see everything we are doing. In order for us to break this deadlock we need something new, like the gunpowder which the Chinese invented and which we are still using to kill each other.”
The interview made headlines around the world—it’s news when the general running a war announces the war is deadlocked—and, of course, it enraged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, and the general publicly apologized for his remarks.
But Zelensky is still running the country, and it is known in some quarters in Europe that Russia and Ukraine are now engaged in serious peace talks. Zelensky is resisting such talks and has announced he will seek re-election on a platform that calls for a full withdrawal of Russia from Ukraine before any peace talks can resume. The country is currently under martial law, so elections cannot take place. Zelensky continues to mobilize troops for the Ukrainian army, with a reported new call-up of those between the ages of seventeen and seventy.
There must be a backstory when a commanding general tells a prominent magazine that his and Russia’s army are locked in a stalemate. And here it is, as told to me by two Americans with direct knowledge of these matters.
The interview with the Economist was arranged, as the editors of the magazine were not aware, after a series of general-to-general communications with Valery Gerasimov, who has been the chief of the general staff of Russia’s military since 2012. He is also Russia’s first deputy minister of defense. Gerasimov was especially close to US Army General Martin Dempsey, who served as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President Barack Obama from 2011 to 2015. Dempsey and Gerasimov initially met many years earlier at social events when both were captains and commanded opposite tank units in West and East Germany.
One American official involved early on in the general-to-general talks told me: “This was not a spur-of-the-moment event,” he said. “This was carefully orchestrated by Zaluzhny. The message was the war is over and we want out. To continue it would destroy the next generation of the citizens of Ukraine.”
The official acknowledged that “there is no question” that Zaluzhny “had some help in deciding to go public from some key Americans.”
“What was the objective of this amazing story?” the official asked. “To get the Ukraine leadership”—meaning Zelensky and his coterie—“to agree to a settlement and to realize that to continue the war was self-destructive.” He said that there was what he called “a bigger objective”: to get the Ukrainian citizenry “to the point where they would agree to negotiations” to end the war.
 
While being pro-Russian, Seymour Hersh is a deranged conspiracy theorist whose predictions on the Russo-Ukrainian conflict so far failed to materialize in 100% cases. At this point believing in what he says is about as realistic as believing in Ghost of Kiev.

Having said that, general Zaluzhny has been under attack by Zelensky's media and members of his political party for a couple of weeks now in an orchestrated smear campaign, so make of this what you will.
 
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Marinka under Russian control as of 12 December 2023.
I've seen reports (from Bulgarian news out of all places) of Air Force of Ukraine confirming it, but I haven't been able to find the mentioned FB posts. Ukrainian army denies this (capture of Marinka), though. Despite this, DeepStateUA confirms it is taken almost entirely.
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At least 53 injured in Russian missile attack on Kyiv - Reuters​

This gets interesting. Obviously all were intercepted by Ukraine, but did you know that it killed 50 people, then Ukraine used necromancy to bring them back to life?
Original reporting by AP:
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Changed reporting:
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This is part of Russia's larger counter-infrastructure front:
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Ukraine is getting new toys:
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Experts believe Russia can only win through cyber attacks, and conclude since they aren't working against Ukraine, Russia will use up their limited resources on Europe (because that is supposed to make sense, or something)
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What are these cyber attacks? Making fun of politicians. I am not joking. They (West) consider this a cyber attack
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From German newspaper:
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""If the situation worsens as a result of Russia's war against Ukraine, for example because the situation on the front deteriorates, because other supporters reduce their aid to Ukraine or because the threat to Germany and Europe increases further, we will have to react to this," [German Chancellor] continued"

"With regard to Ukraine policy, [opposition leader] Merz said that it was already foreseeable that the German government would have to declare an emergency by the middle of next year at the latest [...]However, the CDU/CSU would not allow this to happen. "You know that under the current circumstances, this country has absolutely no chance of winning this war.""


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"Zelensky comes to DC and openly brags that Ukraine is launching attacks that "shake the ground in the heart of Moscow.""

 
Interesting to read about Kiev being attacked in a meaningful way.

I was there this summer, and apart from the occasional Ukrop soldier begging for money for equipment for their unit (lol) the city was totally untouched by war.

It looked like any other Eastern European city, even down to the amount of young men walking around carefree and apparently without a thought of mobilization.

Guess things are slooowly changing.
 
but they let millions of Ukrainians here thus creating a loud minority that will eventually split the country apart
I have been wondering about that, its surely destabilizing. What does the average person think of having so many of them in Poland?
the private talks
With all due respect Russia isn't going to agree to let Ukraine join NATO; that's the primary reason for the SMO.

Glen Greenwald on the hohol grifter (first video) and...Gonzalo Lira (second video).



Twitter (X) link
 
I tolerated PiS despite hating their fucking guts thanks to their 0 immigration stance, but they let millions of Ukrainians here thus creating a loud minority that will eventually split the country apart and I voted accordingly.

Not just created a loud minority, but re-created a loud minority that still believes that alot of the territory of Poland belongs to them and was not shy historically about using violence against Poles. What was done at the end of the second world war has now been un-done.
 
I have been wondering about that, it’s surely destabilizing. What does the average person think of having so many of them in Poland?
Not too happy, but Tbf: There have been Ukrainians in Poland for a long ass time, given their financial deroute over the last decade.
With all due respect Russia isn't going to agree to let Ukraine join NATO; that's the primary reason for the SMO.
I would think it’s unlikely, but not impossible.

There’s joining NATO and there’s joining NATO.

Norway borders Russia and have been a NATO member for decades, so there it’s not a totally black and white issue.

Perhaps it could be done as a NATO security guarantee without formal membership. Perhaps it can be combines with a near de-militarized Ukraine and no former bases.

Perhaps they can be convinced to get some kind of provisional membership/security guarantee in conjunction with being promised EU membership in a decade (lol, won’t happen.)

There is some room for negotiation there.

Not just created a loud minority, but re-created a loud minority that still believes that alot of the territory of Poland belongs to them and was not shy historically about using violence against Poles. What was done at the end of the second world war has now been un-done.
Ukrainians truly are the niggers of Europe.

I’ve had to deal with some of them in a professional capacity. The older Russian speaking babushkas aren’t that bad but the younger ones? Fuck ‘em. Terrible attitude, arrogant, low IQ FAS fuckers the lot of them.
 
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I have been wondering about that, its surely destabilizing. What does the average person think of having so many of them in Poland?
Some guys have Ukrainian wives and care, some don't care, some only care about getting STDs from all the blond dyevas who came (har) here, some think we're gonna have a war with Ukraine once all the PTSD cases from the front reunite in Poland with their families, some only care about fucking with Russia and will ally with Satan himself to accomplish that, some (laptop caste especially) excuse mass murders of civilians and Nazi tatoos as "part of their culture."
We consider them the Mexicans of Eastern Europe - they come here, work a lot for peanuts, are a little above a Russky.
Not just created a loud minority, but re-created a loud minority that still believes that alot of the territory of Poland belongs to them
Lol good luck with that; Western half of Ukraine was historically the Eastern part of Poland until 1945. Poland has this brain-damaged Intermarum concept where we'll once again be a Poland "from sea to sea" by (presumably) annexing half of Ukraine.
 
Not too happy, but Tbf: There have been Ukrainians in Poland for a long ass time, given their financial deroute over the last decade.

I would think it’s unlikely, but not impossible.

There’s joining NATO and there’s joining NATO.

Norway borders Russia and have been a NATO member for decades, so there it’s not a totally black and white issue.

Perhaps it could be done as a NATO security guarantee without formal membership. Perhaps it can be combines with a near de-militarized Ukraine and no former bases.

Perhaps they can be convinced to get some kind of provisional membership/security guarantee in conjunction with being promised EU membership in a decade (lol, won’t happen.)

There is some room for negotiation there.
Rather than a universal all borders with Nato are an threat worth going to war for. Borders where a potential force sizable enough to threaten Russia could be based and supplied from seem to be the criteria for action. Ukraine in Nato minus secure access to the rest of Nato or a second better Ukraine between Russia and Nato Ukraine might be possible.
 
Perhaps it could be done as a NATO security guarantee without formal membership. Perhaps it can be combines with a near de-militarized Ukraine and no former bases.

Perhaps they can be convinced to get some kind of provisional membership/security guarantee in conjunction with being promised EU membership in a decade (lol, won’t happen.)

There is some room for negotiation there.

The Russians consider themselves so burned by bad faith negotiations and actions in the 1990s with the US/NATO that they would never trust any guarantee given. The US wants Ukraine and Georgia in NATO as hostile weapons to aim against Russia. That has always been the reasoning behind the policy.

My take on the Russian point of view since 2014 is that they are willing to accept "a" Ukraine that is in NATO or the EU. But not a Ukraine with its 1991 borders. It will have to be a much smaller Ukraine and a Ukraine that in no uncertain terms accepts its new borders.
 
The Russians consider themselves so burned by bad faith negotiations and actions in the 1990s with the US/NATO that they would never trust any guarantee given. The US wants Ukraine and Georgia in NATO as hostile weapons to aim against Russia. That has always been the reasoning behind the policy.

My take on the Russian point of view since 2014 is that they are willing to accept "a" Ukraine that is in NATO or the EU. But not a Ukraine with its 1991 borders. It will have to be a much smaller Ukraine and a Ukraine that in no uncertain terms accepts its new borders.
That's the mystery with how Russia can even end this. I don't see how a NATO version of mini-Ukraine would work since it would have to be tiny to avoid doing this all again. It would be easier to just annex the western-most part into Poland since it's already NATO. I'm thinking they'll have to demand full-disarmament for Ukraine as a condition for peace. As in no military whatsoever, nothing more potent than local police with side-arms. Any vehicle attempting to import military equipment will be bombed crossing the border. What other options are there?

Also another fun twitter exchange, unrelated:

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That's the mystery with how Russia can even end this. I don't see how a NATO version of mini-Ukraine would work since it would have to be tiny to avoid doing this all again. It would be easier to just annex the western-most part into Poland since it's already NATO. I'm thinking they'll have to demand full-disarmament for Ukraine as a condition for peace. As in no military whatsoever, nothing more potent than local police with side-arms. Any vehicle attempting to import military equipment will be bombed crossing the border. What other options are there?

Also another fun twitter exchange, unrelated:

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Damn that butthurt Churka got BTFO
 
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Now that Zelensky's trip to US is over, let's take a couple feelers from Reddit to see how it went among nafotards.

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Watch out, there could be a ruZZian under your bed! Also send everything.

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Where are my heckin' valid lobbyist we pretended to hate for decades?! Also DRUMPF!

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The visit was just to start a conversation.

After cope comes the sneed:
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Not too happy, but Tbf: There have been Ukrainians in Poland for a long ass time, given their financial deroute over the last decade.

I would think it’s unlikely, but not impossible.

There’s joining NATO and there’s joining NATO.

Norway borders Russia and have been a NATO member for decades, so there it’s not a totally black and white issue.

Perhaps it could be done as a NATO security guarantee without formal membership. Perhaps it can be combines with a near de-militarized Ukraine and no former bases.

Perhaps they can be convinced to get some kind of provisional membership/security guarantee in conjunction with being promised EU membership in a decade (lol, won’t happen.)

There is some room for negotiation there.

Norway is a founding member of NATO. Russia's problem with NATO today is it keeps trying to add every country that borders Russia to NATO, not what it was immediately after WWII. The solution to Russia getting mad every time the USA tries to overthrow a government friendly to it and trying to add it to NATO is for America to just not do that any more.
 
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