GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

I think that advances in process node technology are going to primarily drive consolidation of all chip features onto SoCs. Apple is already there, with M2 Ultra just being two M2 Max chips mashed together. Sound cards are dead, dGPUs are dying, and consumer-grade discrete NPUs are stillborn. You may be old enough to remember when floating-point units were dedicated accelerators:

I agree. I'm keeping the options open because I don't have any idea how powerful integrated machine learning accelerators would be in next-gen consoles or their contemporary desktop CPUs. Could be anywhere from 50 to 1000 TOPS, and Sony and Microsoft could go their own separate ways with one treating it like an afterthought and the other going hard.

But in a worst case scenario, a discrete RTX 10090 Stupor could handle both graphics and AI.

If anyone reading this thread has a recent iGPU, you should really try running some games at 1080p on it, see what kind of settings you need to get 60 fps (spoiler, you won't get 60 fps on MW2 on an Intel iGPU unless you have a laptop). I think it gives a good glimpse into why I think things are going toward SoCs.

I probably already sperged about this, but I'd like to see Intel put their best mobile chip on a desktop socket to challenge AMD's desktop APUs. 8700G is rumored to be unveiled at CES and released January 31. That's a real 1080p iGPU.

An official slide for Meteor Lake advertised 192 EUs (12 Xe cores) over 2 years ago. That was pulled back to 128 EUs (8 Xe cores), but it's still around Phoenix performance. Old rumors claimed 320 EUs (20 Xe cores) for Arrow Lake (mobile).

 

[Leaded Gasoline]

Increased L3 cache improves the performance of bandwidth-bound workloads when there are a lot of out-of-order memory accesses. Certain bandwidth-bound workloads were a driving reason behind the development of the original 3D V-Cache enabled EPYCs.

late but this post made me worry that i was spreading misinformation with the claim that lower latency matters more than bandwidth for dwarf fortress

spent the last few days benchmarking the performance of dwarf fortress with different memory configurations using DFmark

Spoiler: results

and here are the aida64 cache & memory benchmark results

Spoiler: AIDA64

it seems like memory bandwidth has very little effect on performance, at least with this CPU

 

[Betonhaus]

I probably already sperged about this, but I'd like to see Intel put their best mobile chip on a desktop socket to challenge AMD's desktop APUs. 8700G is rumored to be unveiled at CES and released January 31. That's a real 1080p iGPU

You can usually buy small form factor computers that have the more powerful laptop chips

 

[The Ugly One]

I agree. I'm keeping the options open because I don't have any idea how powerful integrated machine learning accelerators would be in next-gen consoles or their contemporary desktop CPUs. Could be anywhere from 50 to 1000 TOPS, and Sony and Microsoft could go their own separate ways with one treating it like an afterthought and the other going hard.

But in a worst case scenario, a discrete RTX 10090 Stupor could handle both graphics and AI.

In consoles, developers usually want to squeeze every last pixel blend they can out of the GPU. So my guess AI on consoles will be "whatever we can get an integrated NPU to do." Besides, how much AI do you really need to run around a skate park in your Hey Arnold DLC skin to shoot nonbinary people? I'm sure an on-chip NPU will be enough to detect that you said a no-no word and ban your account.

I probably already sperged about this, but I'd like to see Intel put their best mobile chip on a desktop socket to challenge AMD's desktop APUs. 8700G is rumored to be unveiled at CES and released January 31. That's a real 1080p iGPU.

An official slide for Meteor Lake advertised 192 EUs (12 Xe cores) over 2 years ago. That was pulled back to 128 EUs (8 Xe cores), but it's still around Phoenix performance. Old rumors claimed 320 EUs (20 Xe cores) for Arrow Lake (mobile).

They don't sell socketed versions, but Intel's NUC line, which amounted to high-end laptops in mini desktop form factors, was one of their most successful products. Most all-in-one desktops use laptop chips, too. The new Meteor lake iGPU is XeSS-capable, but I don't think Radeon iGPUs are (RDNA2 aren't). AMD really backed the wrong horse with heuristic upscaling.

 

[Betonhaus]

Is there something like a raid computer case that comes with a bunch of hot swap drive bays and maybe a raid card and that's it?

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

They don't sell socketed versions, but Intel's NUC line, which amounted to high-end laptops in mini desktop form factors, was one of their most successful products. Most all-in-one desktops use laptop chips, too. The new Meteor lake iGPU is XeSS-capable, but I don't think Radeon iGPUs are (RDNA2 aren't). AMD really backed the wrong horse with heuristic upscaling.

Everyone is quick to remind me that Intel mobile chips go into mini PCs. Is there no value to having a socketed desktop APU like AMD? I think it would be popular. Intel has the capacity to make them, or they did before they started making 75% of their chiplets at TSMC.

Then again I'm excited for the completely soldered Strix Halo from AMD.

AMD will fix everything by iterating to FSR 4.20.

 

[Betonhaus]

Everyone is quick to remind me that Intel mobile chips go into mini PCs. Is there no value to having a socketed desktop APU like AMD?

I don't know what to tell you, whenever I upgraded my cpu I also upgrade my motherboard and got a new case. Though when I set up my new server I will be cannibalizing my current computer so everything but the motherboard and case gets reused.

 

[The Ugly One]

Everyone is quick to remind me that Intel mobile chips go into mini PCs. Is there no value to having a socketed desktop APU like AMD? I think it would be popular. Intel has the capacity to make them, or they did before they started making 75% of their chiplets at TSMC.

All Intel desktop CPUs are APUs except the F-branded chips. It's just that the laptop chips have bigger GPUs, so if you want to game on an iGPU, you're better off with a laptop chip. It looks to me like AMD isn't much different here. My laptop's Ryzen 7 6800h has a more powerful GPU than a Ryzen 7 5700G.

Since DIY hobbyists are a rounding error compared to OEM sales, the reason you can't buy a socketed version of an i7-1365u or Ryzen 7 6800U is Dell, Toshiba, HP, and all them are perfectly happy soldering them on motherboards for all-in-ones & minis. My guess is that people who want to play games, but don't want to spend $400+ on a dGPU, are wholly taken care of by this kind of product.

 

[Fcret]

Since DIY hobbyists are a rounding error compared to OEM sales, the reason you can't buy a socketed version of an i7-1365u or Ryzen 7 6800U is Dell, Toshiba, HP, and all them are perfectly happy soldering them on motherboards for all-in-ones & minis. My guess is that people who want to play games, but don't want to spend $400+ on a dGPU, are wholly taken care of by this kind of product.

There's also the downsides of socketing - increased power draw and increased cost of manufacturing the chip to mechanically work in a socket. Now granted sockets are way better than they used to be but they're still a nontrivial cost.

I don't know what to tell you, whenever I upgraded my cpu I also upgrade my motherboard and got a new case. Though when I set up my new server I will be cannibalizing my current computer so everything but the motherboard and case gets reused.

Yeah this is always how I've felt about it, even going back to the 2000s - if you're upgrading your CPU to a new generation, you're probably going to at least want a new mobo to support all the functionality of your new CPU. This is why I kinda hate socket longevity arguments when talking about AMD vs Intel, because it only really makes sense if you're buying a low-end CPU in the hopes of a sidegrade in the same gen down the line (like a Ryzen 5 to a Ryzen 7 or something)

Most of the people I've talked to who complained about Intel socket changes being the reason why they chose AMD never actually upgrade their CPUs at all. I can only presume this is some persistent mass delusion.

I think that advances in process node technology are going to primarily drive consolidation of all chip features onto SoCs. Apple is already there, with M2 Ultra just being two M2 Max chips mashed together

I got to look at my buddy's Mac Pro recently and the M2 Ultra in it is so beautifully massive.

 

[seri0us]

at least those computers full of potentially sensitive data are being handled by professionals who will for sure wipe the disks before throwing them out

Once I dived up a hard drive evidently formerly used by an ex employee. Not many project-related files that were presumably on a network drive, mostly photos of business trips to trade shows, family, his personal travels, and the company's Christmas parties. Didn't have anything too compromising but it's obviously disturbing how all of that was left up for grabs.

All the other drives I got from the same place where either blank or encrypted*, some of them I still use.

*I was too lazy at the time to try cracking the passwords or using recovery software

Is there something like a raid computer case that comes with a bunch of hot swap drive bays and maybe a raid card and that's it?

Other than Synology I've saw a case like that on Aliexpress though I have no clue how good or bad it is. It doesn't have a RAID card but setting that up in software is pretty easy and likely better anyway.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

All Intel desktop CPUs are APUs except the F-branded chips. It's just that the laptop chips have bigger GPUs, so if you want to game on an iGPU, you're better off with a laptop chip. It looks to me like AMD isn't much different here. My laptop's Ryzen 7 6800h has a more powerful GPU than a Ryzen 7 5700G.

That's a temporary situation caused by AMD skipping Rembrandt for desktop. 8700G and 8600G based on Phoenix should be out by January 31. There will be an 8500G and 8300G based on the smaller "hybrid" Phoenix2 die, and probably "PRO" SKUs.

AMD desktop APUs lag behind mobile releases, but skipping Rembrandt means it's going to be a little under 3 years between these two desktop APU launches (5700G went to OEMs on April 13, 2021, retail on August 5, 2021).

Ryzen 7000 (2 CUs RDNA2) and Intel 12th/13th/14th have similar iGPU performance, but only AMD is doing the "G" thing thang.

New storage technology is resistant to ransomware attacks... because it's not rewritable:

https://www.techradar.com/pro/microsoft-inches-closer-to-glass-storage-breakthrough-that-could-finally-make-ransomware-attacks-impossible-in-the-data-center-and-hyperscalers-but-only-azure-customers-will-benefit-from-it

 

[The Ugly One]

This is why I kinda hate socket longevity arguments when talking about AMD vs Intel

I can count the number of people I have met (online or otherwise) who actually upgrade their CPU every year on one finger. It's just @snov and nobody else.

Most of the people I've talked to who complained about Intel socket changes being the reason why they chose AMD never actually upgrade their CPUs at all. I can only presume this is some persistent mass delusion.

AMD vs Intel fanboyism is on par with Nintendo vs Sega. Excessive underdog cheering has infected a number of longstanding, otherwise reputable hardware review sites. Yeah, I get it, Intel acts like GM used to, and NVIDIA is an outright infuriating company to deal with, especially when publishing anything about hardware they gave you, and AMD's got a much friendlier, more open culture...but their graphics technology is lagging right now.

 

[Leaded Gasoline]

Once I dived up a hard drive evidently formerly used by an ex employee. Not many project-related files that were presumably on a network drive, mostly photos of business trips to trade shows, family, his personal travels, and the company's Christmas parties. Didn't have anything too compromising but it's obviously disturbing how all of that was left up for grabs.

All the other drives I got from the same place where either blank or encrypted*, some of them I still use.

*I was too lazy at the time to try cracking the passwords or using recovery software

it's fucking terrifying how little people care about the data of others or even their own

there is a video rental place in my city that threw out 2 old computers with the hard drives still in them
they contained records of everyone who is/used to be a member 2001-2018 and a bunch of other very sensitive information

full names, phone numbers, addresses and even some ID info were left on an unencrypted drive by the side of the road
motherfucker could have doxed nearly half my city had i not gotten to the drives first

 

[Betonhaus]

Other than Synology I've saw a case like that on Aliexpress though I have no clue how good or bad it is. It doesn't have a RAID card but setting that up in software is pretty easy and likely better anyway.

Thanks, I did see a few that just have lots of internal bays but cable management would be a pain. For my needs I'll probably just retrofit the old ThinkServer I have as it can take a normal motherboard.

 

[DavidS877]

Is there something like a raid computer case that comes with a bunch of hot swap drive bays and maybe a raid card and that's it?

Yes. Go to ebay.
Look for something like JBOD or DAS or SAS or expander enclosures.
They take an external cable to a controller in your main PC. (usually 4 lane SAS)

Usually the cheapest are used rack mounts. (Dell, EMC, Netapp)
Note: if they have 2 power supplies, plug in both, mine detects a fault if only one is connected and sets all fans to SUPER HIGH.
I got basically this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/166484085992/ and used an adapter to take 4 lanes from my 8i sas card to a back panel connector.

 

[Susanna]

I can count the number of people I have met (online or otherwise) who actually upgrade their CPU every year on one finger. It's just @snov and nobody else.

In my defence, this only rarely happens. And socket compatibility doesn’t benefit me anyway because I usually get a new motherboard also.
While I do prefer AMDs approach, I don’t hate Intel’s. The capability to upgrade in the same motherboard is nice to have, even if I never use it. It also makes AMD sockets more powerful, at least in the beginning of a product, like how AM5 gets more PCIe lanes than Intel (so far). But it also means problems stick around for longer, AMD will be stuck with the excessively thick CPU lids for a long time.

 

[Car Won't Crank]

I agree. I'm keeping the options open because I don't have any idea how powerful integrated machine learning accelerators would be in next-gen consoles or their contemporary desktop CPUs. Could be anywhere from 50 to 1000 TOPS, and Sony and Microsoft could go their own separate ways with one treating it like an afterthought and the other going hard.

But in a worst case scenario, a discrete RTX 10090 Stupor could handle both graphics and AI.

I think that's what Soyny and Microshit ought to do for the next console generation if they want to actually be innovative and not put out just another PC in drag. A meh cpu with an ASIC chip made for AI upscaling would be super cool while possibly keeping the cost down.

 

[The Ugly One]

I think that's what Soyny and Microshit ought to do for the next console generation if they want to actually be innovative and not put out just another PC in drag. A meh cpu with an ASIC chip made for AI upscaling would be super cool while possibly keeping the cost down.

There's really no reason to have anything except your GPU do upscaling. It already has a big wad of tensor cores, and at least with NVIDIA and Intel, the APIs and technology are already pretty mature, and of course, no need for an exotic memory architecture to give something else access to the frame buffer. It might be interesting to have NPCs have LLM-powered dialog, though. That's something an off-GPU neural engine could be useful for. Or have enemy AI that uses reinforcement learning.

 

[Fcret]

I think that's what Soyny and Microshit ought to do for the next console generation if they want to actually be innovative and not put out just another PC in drag.

I feel like next-gen is going to be ARM based. Sony and Microsoft want a piece of the Switch market and going to an ARM SoC would allow them to actually have compelling SKU splits - one high-powered device for gaming at home and another lower-powered device that can be played portably (with games automatically scaling performance based on hardware).

They need to start leveraging the vertical integration they can have over the hardware and software again or they're just going to continue to lose ground to PC gaming (especially with shit like the Steam Deck blowing up).

 

[Betonhaus]

I feel like next-gen is going to be ARM based. Sony and Microsoft want a piece of the Switch market and going to an ARM SoC would allow them to actually have compelling SKU splits - one high-powered device for gaming at home and another lower-powered device that can be played portably (with games automatically scaling performance based on hardware).

They need to start leveraging the vertical integration they can have over the hardware and software again or they're just going to continue to lose ground to PC gaming (especially with shit like the Steam Deck blowing up).

They should need to put some sort of restrictions in to ensure developers optimize their code.