Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

An exorcist once said the demonic is the perfection of self-hatred. When you wind yourself up like this you risk falling into despair and self-hatred yourself. You are right where the Devil wants you. He wants to see you suffering like this. He hates you like he hates himself.
Thank you, I really appreciate the thoughtful response. Yes, that's exactly what's happening here. I can't arrogate for myself the position of judging what is righteous or not righteous because I'm not God and I'm not capable of doing that. I just have to trust that the disposition of every martyr is handled justly by our perfect Holy God. I have to accept that there are good reasons I'm not currently getting the answers I want. I also have to accept that the pursuit of those answers is something God can use for my sanctification--but not if I get consumed by the search in a way that takes me away from the Author of those answers.
 
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Thank you, I really appreciate the thoughtful response. Yes, that's exactly what's happening here. I can't arrogate for myself the position of judging what is righteous or not righteous because I'm not God and I'm not capable of doing that. I just have to trust that the disposition of every martyr is handled justly by our perfect Holy God. I have to accept that there are good reasons I'm not currently getting the answers I want. I also have to accept that the pursuit of those answers is something God can use for my sanctification--but not if I get consumed by the search in a way that takes me away from the Author of those answers.
If you want to talk some more, feel free to DM me. I am a convert myself.
 
You know there are other Christian rites besides the Latin and protestant confessions?
I'm listening, but I'll probably just end up with the Pentecostals. No, not the type who think you have to speak in tongues to be saved. That just causes people to force it and pretend in order to avoid the church's opprobrium. I'm in serious need of healing and I need to worship at a church that believes God is still healing today and, specifically, God is still healing miraculously today. I need God's miraculous and irresistible healing for the extreme rage and total inability to sleep that my spiritual torment has created.
 
I need God's miraculous and irresistible healing for the extreme rage and total inability to sleep that my spiritual torment has created.
My spiritual father confided in me about how much anger and frustration he had toward the world before he started taking his religion seriously again. That was back in his 20's when he never imagined he'd ever become a priest. Orthodoxy might help you; it worked for St. Ahmet who was so deep in his own spiritual nihilism before he converted.
 
I'm listening, but I'll probably just end up with the Pentecostals. No, not the type who think you have to speak in tongues to be saved. That just causes people to force it and pretend in order to avoid the church's opprobrium. I'm in serious need of healing and I need to worship at a church that believes God is still healing today and, specifically, God is still healing miraculously today. I need God's miraculous and irresistible healing for the extreme rage and total inability to sleep that my spiritual torment has created.
Any church worth it's salt should believe in the real and undeniable power of God in the world. I would look at either rite of Roman Catholicism or at Eastern Orthodoxy before running to Protesantism.

I will pray for you and hopefully other Christians here will too, regardless of their confession.

Put your faith in the Lord. Out of His Divine Love and Mercy, He will guide you where you need to be and put your spirit in peace, my brother.
 
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I know I'm technically not allowed here—not being Christian—but as an amateur theologist and curious boy I'm confused as to why Christians still characterize mankind as fallen after the whole Christ on the cross thing. I thought the point of Jesus's sacrifice was to take all of man's punishment upon himself, thereby absolving humanity of original sin. Or is vicarious atonement less of a popular concept than I was led to believe?
Everyone is dead in their transgressions. Christ's death redeems those God has called to Himself.

What that means is those who have never heard of, or reject the Gospel are still dead in their sins. Regeneration only comes through saving faith. It did not apply to all people. It only made said saving grace possible.
 
I don't trust God much even though I pray. Even when things are good, part of me assumes he is just going to pull the rug out from under me like he always has. I'm just tired. I don't go to Church anymore since it just makes me bitter
 
I don't trust God much even though I pray. Even when things are good, part of me assumes he is just going to pull the rug out from under me like he always has. I'm just tired. I don't go to Church anymore since it just makes me bitter
Strangely, for me, one of the most liberating things for me in my conversion was just letting go and allowing God to be in control.

As I was driving this past weekend, I was listening to a Pints With Aquanias podcast about the Vactican II reforms. They both kept bringing up how hard it must be to convert in this time. I very recently converted but don't bother myself with a lot of what deeply disturbed them or others. Either you believe what Jesus said about the Church or you don't. I am a half assed Latin and Byzantine Catholic (yes yes, I know you have to pick, but fuck you, not ready yet). I am having some huge problems with my new BR priest and I am just not satisfied with my NO parish in the Latin Rite. But neither is going to keep me from being Catholic....I am just...annoyed about parish culture on either side.
 
I don't trust God much even though I pray. Even when things are good, part of me assumes he is just going to pull the rug out from under me like he always has. I'm just tired. I don't go to Church anymore since it just makes me bitter
25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?†
26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’
32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.†
33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.†
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
 
I already told you I'm not a Christian: if I die, I'll go to hell. I don't go to church and I don't see why God would save any person. Nobody is worthy.

It doesn't make any difference to me whether you respect the Christian faith. I don't care about your motives and that's why I didn't ask. I don't like you as a person, either. Your postings are shit and so are you.

The murder of Servetus is too much to get past. It's not possible that the Holy Spirit operates as people say He does, yet John Calvin the murderer and the bloodthirsty Catholic authorities had the Spirit. If they did have the Spirit yet wanted to kill Servetus anyway, then what use is the Spirit?

For a long time I believed but I don't anymore. The Servetus murder destroys the entire paradigm. I say again, what use is the Holy Spirit if those who have Him still lie, still seek power, and still kill?

The attempted responses earlier in the thread are worthless. I'll leave the believers in peace.
No one is perfect other than Christ, and it’s inevitable that people in the Church made mistakes. John Calvin sinned, the French catholic authorities sinned, there’s no escaping it on Earth.

I’m not familiar with the other ones, so I’ll just talk Catholicism. The infallibility of the Catholic Pope does not mean the Catholic Church never did and never will make mistakes, or even the pope can never be wrong. Only under very specific circumstances the Popes decision is deemed infallible. For example, the immaculate conception and assumption of Mary. Outside of the conditions for infallible statements, even the pope can err.

Only Jesus could never sin. We have never been promised that we will be made perfect in this life with Spirit. The Spirit guides and console us in living as perfectly as possible. It teaches us God’s Divine order and helps us abide by it. We learn what is sin and what is love. It gives us hope that we will be saved when Jesus comes back to judge the living and the dead.

Without the Spirit we would still be slaves to the Jewish laws. The laws don’t save, because there’s no way anyone can not break them. Through Spirit we are freed from the burdens of proving the impossible.

John Calvin could be forgiven, any murderer can be forgiven, it’s up to the Lord, who knows what’s in their heart, whose wisdom is superior to ours. But by no means the imperfect nature of those in the church indicate a failure of the Spirit. It’s never meant to make anyone absolutely perfect
 
I have a hard question about theistic evolution.

In most historical Christian thought, the main answer to the origin of sin is that it came from the Fall of Man. Adam sins, suffering begins. However, if you're a Christian who believes in evolution, there may be a problem. It seems like there must have been animal suffering before anything like a Fall, and maybe even the suffering of early humans. Not only that, it seems like the system itself is driven by death. The reason evolution works is the generations come and go with successive changes. Some populations succeed, some fail, and it's competition and survival of the fittest.

Now if you're a deist or something like that, this might not be a big deal. But it's a lot hard when talking about the God of love. Does this say something pretty negative about the character of God?

(This isn't intended as a gotcha. I'm a theistic evolutionist myself. I just don't know what to think about this particular point.)
 
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I have a hard question about theistic evolution.

In most historical Christian thought, the main answer to the origin of sin is that it came from the Fall of Man. Adam sins, suffering begins. However, if you're a Christian who believes in evolution, there may be a problem. It seems like there must have been animal suffering before anything like a Fall, and maybe even the suffering of early humans. Not only that, it seems like the system itself is driven by death. The reason evolution works is the generations come and go with successive changes. Some populations succeed, some fail, and it's competition and survival of the fittest.

Now if you're a deist or something like that, this might not be a big deal. But it's a lot hard when talking about the God of love. Does this say something pretty negative about the character of God?

(This isn't intended as a gotcha. I'm a theistic evolutionist myself. I just don't know what to think about this particular point.)
What people don't understand, and even Christians sadly, is that creation is good as a whole, when God said in Genesis that all that he made and saw was very good, it didn't say that this part of the world is good and this other part is bad, no, the whole world is very good and it isn't defined by its individual parts sticking out, but instead, everything that was, will be and is. The combine of the blessings and the curses, our downfall and our success, light and dark, is greater than just good, for evil contextualize good and vice and versa. David sin severely against God, but God still considered him to be perfect regardless just like Adam. Quantitative sinlessness isn't for us in this life, he didn't made us for it nor he made us to like it as much because he already has that, just look at how many violent movies, games and etc. that we like compared to wholesome media. As for death in nature, we were send here to submit to death as punishment, power in real life and in the political sense can be describe in the most simple and primordial terms as power to kill, every other form of power is just an emanation of that and has its roots on that, the state and the powerful are minions of Death, for we are in its dominion where the prince reign. God quite literally gave Death power over us and the other living things in our world, and why he did it? Well, you can guess why, you are on KF right now where we can see it on full display.

But look, he made you knowing you will sin, knowing that you will fail at some point, but when it is all done, symbolized by the six sides of a coffin that represents the days of creation, is when the greater good can take place, like a seed that is meek, silent and subtle, for we aren't define only for our presence, but also our absence. Death will degenerate so much, it will become nothingness, just like Life will regenerate so much, that it will feel like death didn't even existed. Death will become part of the past, and the future will belong to Life forever after the end times. For that it is their logical conclusion.

God is a God of love, but love isn't only pleasure, it is suffering too, a long road. If you never felt the pleasure and the pain of love at the same time, I don't know how I could describe it to you. It also important to understand that he look at us for what we are deeply in eternity, there is a reason why I feel like he dislikes weakness, I guess because to him it is just a lie, you aren't weak, and this world and flesh is just vain despite everything. And all of this so he can ask you a question, to be or not to be?

All of this is just my opinion, of course.
 
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Could anyone provide some good answers/resources about the separation of applying Christian ethics in an ideal world vs applying them in reality?

For example, against hostile beliefs or people, like wars against Muslims or even other Christians. Should Christians surrender and live in persecution, should they fight so they can practice Christianity in peace, are only defensive actions acceptable or are pre-emptive offensive actions to ensure peace acceptable; stuff like this. Doesn't have to be specifically war though, just anything about how far ethics like "loving thy neighbour as thyself" can be applied in reality.
 
Could anyone provide some good answers/resources about the separation of applying Christian ethics in an ideal world vs applying them in reality?

For example, against hostile beliefs or people, like wars against Muslims or even other Christians. Should Christians surrender and live in persecution, should they fight so they can practice Christianity in peace, are only defensive actions acceptable or are pre-emptive offensive actions to ensure peace acceptable; stuff like this. Doesn't have to be specifically war though, just anything about how far ethics like "loving thy neighbour as thyself" can be applied in reality.
The laws exist in a hierarchy, if they conflict you should take into consideration which one is higher. If there is a serial killer in your house and he is trying to kill you and your family and you can kill him, you should probably stop him, because if you don't do it, because you are following the command "do not kill", then you will not be following the "love one another as yourself" because you are "loving" the killer more than your family creating a net negative. This kind of situation is why cops are allowed to kill in Christian countries in certain situations.

If there is one thing that you can learn from Christian history is that you should never surrender, there are saints who were skinned alive, burned to death, humiliated, and there are also those who dedicated their entire lives to their faith like priest Justo Gallego Martínez who build a cathedral out of rejected construction material because of a promise that he made to God. But it is also important to not throw away your life in vain, so sometimes oppression is the only way like the early japanese christians.
 
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