Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Corn Syrup Connoisseur]

To be fair, posting in 'everyone already agrees with me: the thread' is kindof boring.

There's a reason why the thread was partitioned.
Endless shit flinging match is not a discussion worth having.

 

[Betonhaus]

To be fair, posting in 'everyone already agrees with me: the thread' is kindof boring.

most people get enough excitement out of life without having to resort to antagonizing others at every opportunity.

 

[geckogoy]

most people get enough excitement out of life without having to resort to antagonizing others at every opportunity.

Its hard to take you seriously saying something like that on a literal lolcow farming website.


Unrelatedly, allegedly this is an interview of the crew of a bradley that was involved in the recently-discussed T-90 incident.

Interestingly he notes that they did try the armor piercing belts (IE sabot) and had no success, so they switched to HEI to blind them.

Thats pretty much what was already speculated by others, but its interesting to me that they had tried AP first unsuccessfully. To be honest I had assumed they just weren't issued AP belts and that was the only reason they were trying to engage a tank with HEI.

 

[Meh123]

To be fair, posting in 'everyone already agrees with me: the thread' is kindof boring.

If you look at the reactions you got to your post, you'll see that it's far from an echo chamber.
Also, a relatively good source of news and footage.

 

[Iron Jaguar]

most people get enough excitement out of life without having to resort to antagonizing others at every opportunity.

Nigger, do you know where you are right now?

 

[Useful_Mistake]

Its hard to take you seriously saying something like that on a literal lolcow farming website.

No, Stalker Child, Lolcows are not real. Enjoy prison.

 

[Betonhaus]

Nigger, do you know where you are right now?

On a thread that has been deliberately split into two for very specific reasons.

 

[Napoleon III]

I didnt say they couldnt win battles/fights, but whats the result of two years of fighting a war right on their borders? They control 75-100 miles of Ukrainian terrirotry in eastern Ukraine. Thats atrocious performance for what theyve committed to this war. This isnt WW1 or 2 where they have the luxury of throwing away men and material like the Soviets did then.

Yes you are correct that don't have as many men to burn as they did in WW2. Also the reality of combat is probably worse for infantry units conducting any kind of attack. People have made comparisons to WW1 and while I think such comparison are simplistic they are basically correct. But WW1 did not result in the status Quo. Countries lost and were defeated. The Ottoman Empire was destroyed, the Russian Empire was destroyed etc. If you judged who was winning based on who held the most territory at any point of the war the answer would be the German Empire. But Germany still lost because that metric sometimes isn't valuable.

Yeah Russia has been destroying Ukraine's best for 2 straight years now, where has that gotten them?

There are plenty of examples of wars that take years to come to some conclusion. Some wars are quick and some are slow.

The Russians are stronger right now than they were before this war. The army is bigger and the Industrial base is stronger. One result of the strategic decision making of Russia in this war is that they haven't lost all that much in this war. On balance they have already gained more than they have lost both in an equipment sense and also in a manpower sense.

But isnt capturing Kharkov and the eastern half of Ukraine the entire point of this war? Isnt this war about tearing apart Ukraine making it useless as a NATO puppet and creating buffer space for Russia against NATO puppets?

If Russia is so concerned about NATO attacking them they sure are making sure they are less likely to be able to deal with NATO by slowly losing their good equipment and troops fighting over inches of land.

I think Russia would like to take territory but the main objectives are to prevent the Nation-State of Ukraine from being a military threat and to protect the Russian Citizens living in that region. Originally they would have been fine with Ukraine not being able to join NATO and being a sort of Finland. But war happened and the only way to ensure Ukraine can't be a threat is to destroy Ukraine's ability to wage war. Merely taking land would not accomplish that they need to completely and destroy the capability Ukraine has.

Its the same thread, two groups of people refusing to accept reality. Holos think theyre curb stopping Russia, Zboys think theyre curb stopping holos each thinking just two more weeks and the other side will be either in Moscow or Kiev.

The people that support sides in a war support the side they support. Also if you were paying attention for the entirety of this war like I have been you'd know there are a lot of doomers on the Russian Side. In fact it is only somewhat recently that nearly everyone on the Russian side has been optimistic. Doomersisters on suicide watch.

Yeah bro, its clearly all AI deepfakes when you see a destroyed T90 with no Z or whatever marking Russians are applying.

It is very easy to take a piece of old soviet equipment from a certain angle and say that it is one type of vehicle or another. It is also very easy to double count if all you have are pictures on the internet. OSINT is often unreliable in a lot of ways. OSINT has a very clear narrative that they want to tell and they will try and frame things to fit that narrative. This is not controversial or hard-hitting commentary on OSINT.

Territory != progress, retard. The most important thing the Russians did after the failure at Kiev was retreat and fortify their lines. The territory they kept was the territory they wanted to protect. There's literally no need to waste men and materiel in costly urban or maneuver warfare, then spend time rebuilding all their lines all over again when their current strategy of letting the Ukranians wear themselves out works and accomplishes the operational objective, i.e. Protecting the Donbas.

The Russians have consistently chosen their own soldiers lives or the even avoiding the possibility of a lot of casualties. That is why they pulled out of Kherson and why they retreated during the only Ukrainian Counter-Offensive that actually worked. They might have been able to hold and stop it but it might have gotten a lot of soldiers killed which is unacceptable. Same with the situation of Kherson, the logistic situation made it dangerous to hold.

Phone Number Man doesn't get to make Strategic Decisions for the Russian Army the Russian General Staff does. And they are making the decisions to prevent casualties over taking land.

Irony here is pretty hilarious. Plethora of videos out there of Russians doing charges of armor/men into trenches and getting annihilated. See the video I posted a few pages back for a fantastic example.

Yeah there are videos of Russians fighting badly and videos of them fighting well. Videos are a tiny picture into this war. You can't base everything off of them and get an accurate picture of what is going on. You can use them to answer a specific tactic question about how well certain equipment does against other equipment. But a little bit of tactical knowledge cannot be built into an understanding of the operational or strategic nature of this war.

Endless shit flinging match is not a discussion worth having.

I enjoy a little bit back and forth. It makes the discussion more interesting to me to have something to argue against. That being said I don't want a lot or Urk shills or doomers here and eventually it gets a bit boring.

Thats pretty much what was already speculated by others, but its interesting to me that they had tried AP first unsuccessfully. To be honest I had assumed they just weren't issued AP belts and that was the only reason they were trying to engage a tank with HEI.

The weirdest thing about that entire video is that the Bradley has a dedicated tank killing weapon called a TOW Missile that is extremely capable of destroying tanks. Why didn't they use it? Maybe they weren't trained and didn't know how. It is just weird and I don't understand why they wouldn't use it.

No, Stalker Child, Lolcows are not real. Enjoy prison.

No, Stalker Child, Ukraine is fighting for its freedom. YOU will enjoy Prison.

 

[The Foxtrot]

The weirdest thing about that entire video is that the Bradley has a dedicated tank killing weapon called a TOW Missile that is extremely capable of destroying tanks. Why didn't they use it? Maybe they weren't trained and didn't know how. It is just weird and I don't understand why they wouldn't use it.

Want my guess? I doubt they were even given TOW missiles.

 

[geckogoy]

the Bradley has a dedicated tank killing weapon called a TOW Missile that is extremely capable of destroying tanks. Why didn't they use it?

I can speculate on this: since TOW is SACLOS its kindof risky to use if the tank is aware of you. This is something they were most likely trained on. Combined with mechanical delays in firing the weapon, you can wind up staring at the tank for up to ten seconds before it is struck by the missile. This is a known weakness of the system where the tank can potentially disintegrate you with its main gun before your missile reaches it, thus protecting itself from your missile as it will lose guidance with your demise. Conversantly, the bradley's gun doesn't really have that problem and can start effecting the target immediately.

Alternatively, they may have just been out of missiles. They do get used for building demo and stuff as well.

 

[Fried-Rice12]

Want my guess? I doubt they were even given TOW missiles.

My guess is that some corrupt supply officer might have already sold off the missiles to black market arms dealers.

 

[geckogoy]

I'd buy it...

 

[Rubick]

Interestingly he notes that they did try the armor piercing belts (IE sabot) and had no success, so they switched to HEI to blind them.

Thats pretty much what was already speculated by others, but its interesting to me that they had tried AP first unsuccessfully. To be honest I had assumed they just weren't issued AP belts and that was the only reason they were trying to engage a tank with HEI.

AP rounds wont do shit unless you're targeting sides of Leo 1 and you'd need far more rounds of them to destroy soft targets of a tank due to lacking in fragmentations and HE. However 30 mm HEI round are equivalent of grenades going off. (Personal experiences.) And will be far more effective against "soft targets" on a tank. I assume 25 mm HEI would be almost equivalent to 30 mm HEI in this regard.

 

[Legato]

Say what you will but when a motherfucker comes in here and starts arguing about "Durrr didnt take keef in first days" they are in the wrong thread.

They always have to bring up the early days of the war because it been the only success they've had.

 

[Corn Syrup Connoisseur]

Say what you will but when a motherfucker comes in here and starts arguing about "Durrr didnt take keef in first days" they are in the wrong thread.

They always have to bring up the early days of the war because it been the only success they've had.

And they forget that the source for that was the same that told Kabul would last for months.

 

[Napoleon III]

Want my guess? I doubt they were even given TOW missiles.

They could have run out and the US could be reluctant to give more if the US can't make anymore.

I can speculate on this: since TOW is SACLOS its kindof risky to use if the tank is aware of you. This is something they were most likely trained on. Combined with mechanical delays in firing the weapon, you can wind up staring at the tank for up to ten seconds before it is struck by the missile

This makes sense. Although I assume Bradleys don't go off alone so I assume they would at least have one semi-close. But maybe Ukraine isn't using them how they should because they don't have enough.

My guess is that some corrupt supply officer might have already sold off the missiles to black market arms dealers.

I wonder how much is a TOW missile worth. I wonder in general how much some of the different weapons are worth. The whole black market economy is very interesting to me. Obviously a lot of people are going to use this war to enrich themselves. And I bet their desire to enrich themselves affects some of the decisions that are made. If you are trapped in a losing war, from a practical perspective trying to enrich yourself to give yourself options is a good idea.

AP rounds wont do shit unless you're targeting sides of Leo 1 and you'd need far more rounds of them to destroy soft targets of a tank. However 30 mm HEI round are equivalent of grenades going off. (Personal experiences.) And will be far more effective against "soft targets" on a tank. I assume 25 mm HEI would be almost equivalent to 30 mm HEI in this regard.

I think they said they tried using AP rounds and it did nothing so they switched to HEI. I think they were tying to blind the tank crew to give themselves enough time to get away. Sometimes you can't destroy a superior enemy but if you can just hold them off for long enough you'll make it out alive.

 

[Rubick]

Say what you will but when a motherfucker comes in here and starts arguing about "Durrr didnt take keef in first days" they are in the wrong thread.

They always have to bring up the early days of the war because it been the only success they've had.

He's kind a right though somewhat.. on some things. Fact is the force sent wasn't enough to do a proper invasion. it was more of blitz and smash force. Meant to force Ukrainians to the table.

The second problem was as i mentioned here before was that the force sent wasn't equipped and manned to the level of at least close to full strength in units.,

As to why ?


Best guess is that some people in the MoD applied a lot of shine, polish and sprinkle to the readiness reports for years and plenty of contract soldiers either existed only on paper or were never actually willing to serve in combat conditions. And this practice skewed a lot of the early planning for the operation, as no one was willing to admit that his subordinate units were Potemkin villages and hoped or even expected, to the very last moment that 'Go' command wouldn't be given by Putin.


And hence you have this fucking situation. Which is BTW not a stalemate. As the Ukrainians are bleeding dry and now are outnumbered and outgunned.

 

[Gondolindrim]

View attachment 5651718
And they forget that the source for that was the same that told Kabul would last for months.

My favorite part of this war is how it's very obviously an American war using eastern Europeans. From day one you have Pentagon personnel and talking heads acting like this directly affects us. We should not have this much of a say in the affairs of some shithole in Europe but here we are.

 

[Useful_Mistake]

Guys. It’s over. Putin lost. British news informed me that Ukraine has a secret “miracle weapon” that they just haven’t been using. Once they do, Putin is done for!


They cited some Ivan to debunk this who allegedly has ties to Ukrainian gov but they are so secret they don’t show up in a Google Search


In other news, advisor to Ukrainian parliament says the war can only be won against Russia if they make a science breakthrough


He also says that Zelensky will have to do the talks with das Evil Putin

https://archive.ph/49djY

 

[jje100010001]

A "stalemate" would only apply if Russia's goal was to take territory. That's never been the goal. Demilitarizing Ukraine so it is no longer a threat to Russians was always the goal. It's a predictable cope.

It's also not a stalemate if certain members to the conflict still have escalatory headroom.