Western Animation - Discuss American, Canadian, and European cartoons here (or just bitch about wokeshit, I guess)

[DeadwastePrime]

Isn't Miguel the villain tough? Or at least the antagonist? You are not supposed to agree with him.

spot is the villain. miguel is the antagonist. for the second half anyway. a force to oppose what the protagonist, miles, wants

 

[Grumpy Pickle Rick]

Isn't Miguel the villain tough? Or at least the antagonist? You are not supposed to agree with him.

He is a fantastic character because all that anger was what the writers wanted from you as a reaction.

Miguel is not the villain and he’s barely an antagonist.

And he’s not a fantastic character just cause he got an angry reaction from me. Miguel’s motivations and backstory, and the plot of the movie, are still horrible.

His character is written like a twit.

 

[SherlockMexicano]

Miguel is not the villain and he’s barely an antagonist.

Miguel is a self-righteous twit trying to be a superhero.

And he’s not a fantastic character just cause he got an angry reaction from me. Miguel’s motivations and the plot, are still horrible.

On a side-note: I like the Spider-Verse series but when they were coming up with this sequel, did they put any actual thought into the plot or characters at all?

Because there are plenty of Spider-Man storylines that revolve around the Spider-Verse that they could’ve used for this sequel.

I mean, like I said, you are not supposed to agree with him. All your anger is precisely what the writers intended as an average fan reaction.


Next you will tell me the joke is evil? No shit. That's the point. That doesn't mean he is badly written. If anything it means he is well written because you are reacting as they wanted.

He is one of the movie's antagonists btw

 

[Doctor of Autism]

Isn't Miguel the villain tough? Or at least the antagonist? You are not supposed to agree with him.

He is a fantastic character because all that anger was what the writers wanted from you as a reaction.

I personally like Across the Spiderverse so I won’t argue with you about it

But the general point of “this character is meant to make audiences angry = well written” is a terrible point. Especially when the anger is expressed at the writing and not the intended reason of them opposing the protagonist.

I like Miguel but that argument is just not good since there are a lot of villains/antagonists meant to be hateable but people hate them for dogshit writing than their in-universe actions (unless they are an autist or moralfag)

 

[SherlockMexicano]

I personally like Across the Spiderverse so I won’t argue with you about it

But the general point of “this character is meant to make audiences angry = well written” is a terrible point. Especially when the anger is expressed at the writing and not the intended reason of them opposing the protagonist.

I like Miguel but that argument is just not good since there are a lot of villains/antagonists meant to be hateable but people hate them for dogshit writing than their in-universe actions (unless they are an autist or moralfag)

I get your point but that's not what I am saying dude. I agree that a hateable doesn't mean a villain it's good. But that's not my point.

I am just not buying the reasons @Grumpy Pickle Rick Is giving. The fact that Miguel is most likely wrong and he ruined another universe etc are literally what the story mean us to think. He is not giving any opinion that isn't in the movie already. Everything he said was already spoonfed to us.

Just like it's not a groundbreaking opinion to hate the joker because he is a murderer. Or liking Miles because he is the hero

Point is I don't buy an antagonist being badly written just because he is fulfilling their role exactly as it was intended to.

 

[Mexican_Wizard_711]

These old CN promos of Powerpuff Girls and Ed, Edd n Eddy

Surprised they never made a crossover special of the two shows.

By the way the comment at this one

These promos are way better than the ones they currently air

 

[Life is Hell...]

This animated short film made entirely with paper got released today, and it's actually quite beautiful.

 

[TVB]

I saw the new Megamind sequel while I was doing stuff, and my god this film pretty much ignores the entire first movie.

It makes me convinced that Puss in Boots 2 was a fluke since Dreamworks hasn't made anything as good since.

It's made by DW's different staff, being its television division, so of course the Megamind sequel and its TV show were already shit. But at least we got Kung Fu Panda 4 to look forward to

 

[starborn427614]

But at least we got Kung Fu Panda 4 to look forward to

Reviews for that should be in within the next few days. Hope it's another winner.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

Hope it's another winner.

It stars Awkwafina as the fox chick. Either she was tard-wrangled, or she wasn't.

 

[TVB]

Reviews for that should be in within the next few days. Hope it's another winner.

Same here. I just rewatched the three movies, and they still hold up. 3 is still the weakest but even then it's still great.

It stars Awkwafina as the fox chick. Either she was tard-wrangled, or she wasn't.

Seth Rogen has also been in the KFP movies and Hollywood has been known for putting both Rogen and Awkwafina into everything because "lol funny voice." I cannot stand the two and I wish people should stop casting two into everything

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Miguel is barely a character. Just an overhyped plot device to set up the obvious twist that NiggerMan can do things no one else can.

 

[Romeo]

Apologies for going back to capeshit, but I finished binge-watching X-Men: Evolution over the last two weeks, sometimes at home or at work, so I want to dump my thoughts and some of the behind the scenes for Evolution (expect TMI). (not sure where to post this since there is massive overlap between the Western Animation and the MCU threads, but I guess here will do since there's more material relating to the Western animation industry)

P.S. you can also watch it here in Archive.org (which was upscaled to 1080p by AI: thanks @Mississippi Motorboater for the link):

Introduction​

Over the two weeks, following the trailer of X-Men 97, I decided to start touching X-Men: The Animated Series (1992) and X-Men: Evolution (2000), two media that I have never watched due to being from a younger generation (a little power-level from me), so before I read the horrifying the news that X-Men 97 had those entitled writers and made a character non-binary, I was sorta excited and wanted to keep up with the series.

I did watch a few of the X-Men movies (not counting Wolverine/Deadpool stuff): I thought Apocalypse was convoluted, really enjoyed Days of Future Past, and have a very brief memory of watching The Last Stand. A criticism I researched among the live-action films is that Cyclops and Rogue were treated like a wimp and a damsel respectively in favor of more screen-time for Wolverine because Hugh Jackman was that good.

The 1992 series and Evolution were actually not my first animated property of X-Men that I watched; it was Wolverine and the X-Men (which had the same staff as Evolution: Boyd Kirkland, Steve E. Gordon, Craig Kyle, and Greg Johnson). The biggest issue for me was that Nickelodeon only broadcasted one episode on repeat every two days or so, and that was the episode that introduced Storm, so I never got the gist of understanding the X-Men Universe, even though I was interested in the series.

I'm familiar with the existence of the 1992 series, but I credit the users of this thread for introducing me to Evolution, so thank you. I felt so out-of-touch with the 1992 series that I never got pass the second episode, so I decided to binge-watch Evolution.

My Thoughts On Evolution​

L to R: Nightcrawler (Kurt), Rogue, Cyclops (Scott), Kitty Pryde, Spyke (Evan), Jean Grey​

Characters​

Evolution prioritized characters over the storyline since everyone is familiar with the latter through the comics, so I'll mainly focus on this. I don't expect anyone to agree with all my points.

• Nightcrawler (Kurt): the comedy-relief character (and Rogue's step-brother), though I liked his subtle character development of him trying to get over his devil-like appearance and his deteriorating relationship with his mother Mystique.
  • Despite this, I wished Kurt was less aggressive in telling Mystique to leave him and Rogue alone in the last episode Ascension Part 2 (S4E9) and just tell her to repent and not use people as tools anymore, since it felt out of touch seeing him reverse on forgiving Mystique after she was forced to become Apocalypse's Horseman in previous episodes. Also could use some of his Catholicism from the comics.
• Kitty Pryde: despite the valley-girl attitude, I was honestly okay with her and never found her really annoying since she felt kind in all of her episodes.
• Rogue: honestly the best character in the series. Her being the most OP character came with a ton of mental breakdowns as a consequence of being unable to hold that power, so the series did a good job in handling her development of overcoming her mentality. I heavily enjoyed the episode Self-Possessed (S3E8 ) detailing her mental collapse from the dissociative personality disorder that she got from absorbing memories from people.
• Cyclops (Scott): Having very little memory of him in previous media (he just existed in the Apocalypse movie for me, hence why that film was crap), I thought he was okay, but he didn't feel much of a leader in the last seasons (of what he is supposed to be according to people who are familiar with the character), whereas I liked him better in season 1 and 2.
  • I felt the issue is that the latter seasons gave a lot of the leadership spotlight to Wolverine and there was character bloat due to the introduction of the New Mutants.
  • I was almost going to be happy for him when he almost whooped Juggernaut in The Stuff of Heroes (S3E2), but then Juggernaut beating him in the end left a bad taste in my mouth. I wished that once Juggernaut gets down from the blast, Scott just puts back his visor so that Rogue can disable Juggernaut, which would have made that episode better by making Scott a good leader and X-Men team really organized.
• Jean Grey: I almost liked Jean due to her being the second motherly figure of the team and she felt like the most wise, stable, and balanced of the cast. I liked her a lot in Season 1.
  • However, Season 2 has a lot of unsympathetic moments of her that damaged my perception of her.
• Spyke (Evan): It was funny seeing the writers have no idea of what to do with Evan and decided to gradually replace him with Iceman (Bobby), since he was literally created because he's black and young. I also learned they did not want to use an established black character like Bishop because they don't like to see him that young as a teenager. Spyke is still tolerable, but him ditching Beast's chemistry class make me annoyed since Beast made it very engaging and interesting.
• Wolverine: I appreciated Wolverine being a father figure for X-23 and Rogue were good, but I thought he should leave more of an impression on the X-Men boys more, primarily Scott, since Scott would succeed him as leader. Also, no Wolverine-Jean-Scott love triangle (which I remembered was a thing from the movies), which I realized felt weird in the end.
• Storm: I noticed the writers didn't know what to do for Storm, They could have made her a more motherly figure and an inspiration for the girls in the X-Men, especially Jean.
• Professor X: Professor X is Professor X. I really don't have anything else to say. Sometimes he feels like a mentor. Sometimes he does not. Making him a deadbeat dad in Sins of the Son (S4E4) was funny though, and I like the twist of Legion (David) in the end of that episode.

Other comments on other characters:

• Mystique always felt weak to me, mostly because I felt that she always got her ass whooped every time she fought the X-Men.
• There is no resolution for Scarlet Witch (Wanda) since she never got to know the truth that Magneto sent her to a mental asylum because she was brainwashed, so her ending felt bittersweet.
• The set-up for Apocalypse was ...eh okay. I thought his intentions and scenes could have been better, but I guess it was fine given a limited budget and being a TV episode.
• Series also introduced X-23 (Laura) before the comics did, which I found to be interesting.

I know I sound over-critical, for the reason that the characters are heavily prioritized as the series' creators intended, but in the end, I thought all the characters were above-tolerable to great, with some off-putting moments.

Episodes​

Focusing more on the episodes, I enjoyed that a lot of episodes refer to past episodes, leaving a sense of continuity and consistency in the series, such as the major plot point of Rogue's identities being based on all the people she touched in the series with flashbacks of those episodes in Self-Possessed to the small details like Boom-Boom blowing up Mystique's bed (S2E15 The HeX Factor) after sleeping in it since several episodes prior (S2E3 Bada-Bing Bada-Boom). There is also some connectivity that has to be intuitively implied, like Angel (Warren) who comes from a billionaire family funding the reconstruction of the Institute following its destruction in the end of season 2.

I read that one of the biggest flaw of the 1992 series is that there was never any build up or continuity in the series so moments like the Phoenix arc, so people never had a chance to connect with Jean when she "died." It's one of the flaws that come with being an extremely faithful adaptation to the comics, even though the comics had this flaw apparently.

Episode-wise, I thought almost almost all the episodes were good and above-average and some were great, so it's more difficult to detail which episode is better since they're almost at the same quality for me. I love the huge tension that arose in Day of Reckoning (S2E16 + 17) with the Mutants finally being revealed to humanity and the government's attempts to persecute them, so it was really exciting to see the stakes go up. Self-Possessed was the best deconstruction of a character, Rogue. The best 1v1 action would be Scott vs Mystique in Blind Alley (S3E5).

Regarding the last post in the thread on an episode in the 1992 series where Wolverine starts believing in Jesus, I guess the most "Christian" episode would be On Angel's Wings (S2E7). Even though it had the Hanukkah scene since Kitty's background is Jewish, the episode did have the angel (Warren) and devil (Magneto) metaphor from Christianity, snuck in a verse from the New Testament (Hebrews 13:2), had Scott believe in guardian angels, and Rogue goes through a subtle arc mocking the existence of angels to thinking they exist. I guess it's as Christian as you can go when animated media 2000s onwards tend to avoid religion (except Rugrats). I guess it could also be my favorite episode in the series overall, since it's a very comfy yet subtle episode.

The only episode that I disliked was Walk on the Wild Side (S2E10), which made me dislike Jean. The main idea was having a girls' night out being about vigilantism, with the set-up being that girls need no men to save them. The writers made Scott sexist out of nowhere but even so, shamed Scott for saving Jean and another student named Magma (Amara) when a boulder was going to hit them. The sexism never made sense, since it's against Scott's character where he gives his teammates a lot of respect. It's also antithetical for the girls to exclude the boys in saving people with the theme of X-Men on collaboration and working together. I learned that the episode was a love-letter to Buffy the Vampire Slayer (a lot of the dancing in the series were rotoscoped from Buffy which is why they're so smooth) and dedicated to female viewers, but damn, that set-up was awful.

Overall, I did like almost all the episodes except that one. Season-wise, all the seasons had their strengths and weaknesses, but seasons 2 or 3 would have to be my favorite. Season 4 suffered from character bloat and Apocalypse was okay as a final villain. 1 was a set-up season so of course its quality would not be the best.

Shipping (ah shit...)​

Researching more into X-Men comics as a whole and not just Evolution is seeing how love triangles literally plague the entire comic-line which pretty much tramples their theme on discrimination a lot. It's not just the weird triangle between Scott, Jean, and Wolverine or the less weirder Jean, Scott, and Emma Frost, but I researched there was also a time where Kitty ditched Colossus for Starlord, a time where Magneto and Rogue dated, and a time where brother and sister Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch dated. No wonder why comics are a shitshow.

The love-triangle in this series (Rogue, Scott, and Jean) was more bearable since the parts of it only felt one-sided. Jean being a prick to Scott in season 2 made me more sympathetic with the writers trying to pair Rogue and Scott together against the current comic canons of Jean & Scott and Rogue & Gambit. In the end, Scott remain committed to Jean anyway (which she finally reciprocates) and Rogue pretty much respects his choice, which I appreciate the writers for resolving in a non-dramatic way. It's one of the things that prove animation writers (back then) are literally the jannies of the mess that is comics.

I also read that the series had a bad case of shipping wars from viewers who were conflicted between romantic pairs the writers wanted versus the canon (such as Lance and Kitty versus Colossus and Kitty).

Conclusion (or Too Long; Didn't Read)​

Overall, I thank you farmers for introducing me to X-Men: Evolution. It isn't the best animated series for me, but it's very far from the worst. It's a really enjoyable and good watch. I enjoyed all the characters, even if they had moments which were downgraded and trash, and most of the episodes except one were decent enough to heighten all the characters' stories, powers, and abilities.

I guess the only character I did care for is that geology teacher in Turn of the Rogue (S1E7), because I am 90% sure that the VA is Zed from Men in Black because wow, that voice is very similar.

Onwards​

Regarding the cancellation of the series, apparently this was going to happen. According to director Frank Paur, the studio gave out less funding per season, so season 4 had the least funding out of all the seasons, so the studio had to make do what they got to do. I presume that most of the revenue back then for series was selling toys or viewership, of which the two brings problems.

The main character artist Steve E. Gordon's art is more cartoony and simplified than the 1992 series, so it's much more easier to animate. Biggest issue is that the art would not make good looking toys. Regarding viewership, I read that the series got a lot of flak from hardcore cultists of X-Men. They hated the high school setting and the liberties they took with the comics, so the series never got the viewership it deserved.

It was either those two or the fact that studios wanted to siphon under-reported revenues so they treat animated series like money dumps such as Samurai Jack's last season reportedly.

Because of the low budget the series had, the producers had to play smart and used rotoscoping from Buffy: the Vampire Slayer to animate the dance scenes in SpykeCam (S1E8 ) and Walk on the Wild Side (hence why they're smooth), since animating dancing alone was difficult and thus cost a lot of money. Rotoscoping was cheaper, hence they used it.

Had the series not been cancelled, season 5 would be mostly on the Phoenix arc, season 6 is Days of Future Past, and the last season is against Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister teamed up. The producers aimed to introduce Emma Frost, Psylocke, and Bishop in Season 5 (of which they regretted not bring Emma earlier), resolve Kurt's arc in revealing his identity to the public, have Iceman graduate from the New Mutants, and re-introduce David/Legion.

​	​
Psylocke (concept art by Steve Gordon)​	Emma Frost (concept art by Steve Gordon)​

Regarding the Phoenix saga, apparently how it would play out would be that Rogue would siphon powers from Jean Grey when she goes Phoenix so that Jean would take re-control of her body from the Phoenix. Jean will then commit suicide so that the Phoenix dies with her, and the writers aimed to make her death permanent instead of bringing her back in the comics. Taking Jean's power results in Rogue being able to fly and control her powers, hence why she no longer wears gloves in the flash-forwards. Scott becomes traumatized, so Rogue consoles him to the point where they become the two become a couple, which was stated as the endgame by the director Frank Paur.

Here is an interview with Paur regarding the production process of some of the episodes.

A lot of people wish that Evolution got revived instead of the 1992 series, but yea, as seen from the revival, the series most likely would get botched by today's writers to use nostalgia to make the audience watch a potential sabotage of the characters. Plus, some of the people who worked on Evolution are no longer there (also astounds me that a lot of the VAs in this series are prominent anime VAs). Kirby Morrow (VA of Scott) passed away in 2020, Michael Kopsa (VA of Beast) passed away in 2022, Meghan Black (VA of Rogue) got cancer and it resulted in half of her tongue getting removed and had to retire from acting, and most of all, Boyd Kirkland (OG producer of Batman: The Animated Series, and the guy pulling all the strings in Evolution, and a devout Mormon like Don Bluth) passed away waiting for a lung transplant in 2011. Even if you could replace the voice actors, according to Paur, Kirkland did his best to manage the series the best he could and all the producers and writers rely on him. The series' revival would obviously be different from the main series without Kirkland.

Is it me or there are just way more animated series that get cancelled that those that managed to complete its arc? We have X-Men: Evolution, Wolverine and the X-Men, Spectacular Spider-Man (I admit that even though I mentioned in the past, I never watched it, but I trust people saying that it's really good), The Looney Tunes Show, Tron: Uprising, Motorcity, Sym-bionic Titan, etc. The most bittersweet thing about it all is that there will most likely never exist a fitting conclusion for these series because of all these dogshit studios cancelling everywhere. It just sucks, and we're just lucky that Evolution survived with four seasons even though the studio intends to cancel it regardless.

Apologies for TMI, but I just had this much to say.

 

[verissimus]

Is it me or there are just way more animated series that get cancelled that those that managed to complete its arc?

That's difficult to say since some shows don't really have story arcs. For example, Batman Beyond had some continuity with particular episodes, especially those episodes that were 2 parters, but that's about it. In general, I think these types of shows getting cancelled are more of a coincidence. I also I think you're either over ambitious or crazy trying to plan out a multi-arc story that spans more than 2 seasons since there's a good chance you won't get support for more than that.

 

[TVB]

That's difficult to say since some shows don't really have story arcs. For example, Batman Beyond had some continuity with particular episodes, especially those episodes that were 2 parters, but that's about it. In general, I think these types of shows getting cancelled are more of a coincidence. I also I think you're either over ambitious or crazy trying to plan out a multi-arc story that spans more than 2 seasons since there's a good chance you won't get support for more than that.

It's just network and executives that want more demand and less quality

 

[starborn427614]

That's difficult to say since some shows don't really have story arcs. For example, Batman Beyond had some continuity with particular episodes, especially those episodes that were 2 parters, but that's about it. In general, I think these types of shows getting cancelled are more of a coincidence. I also I think you're either over ambitious or crazy trying to plan out a multi-arc story that spans more than 2 seasons since there's a good chance you won't get support for more than that.

This is also possibly why some shows that get criticized for poor pacing have more "filler" episodes than others. You're kind of hedging your bets most of the time.

 

[verissimus]

This is also possibly why some shows that get criticized for poor pacing have more "filler" episodes than others. You're kind of hedging your bets most of the time.

I'd like to know which shows you're referring to. Because I'm completely unfamiliar with Western shows that have filler. As far as I'm concerned most Western shows have episodes that stand alone. Even the shows that have story arcs spanning a couple of episodes do, and I never felt those shows pacing were ruined somehow.

 

[starborn427614]

I'd like to know which shows you're referring to. Because I'm completely unfamiliar with Western shows that have filler. As far as I'm concerned most Western shows have episodes that stand alone. Even the shows that have story arcs spanning a couple of episodes do, and I never felt those shows pacing were ruined somehow or you have a couple of episodes every now in then that are focused on telling a story arc.

More recent shows. Steven Universe, Owl House, maybe Amphibia (though I'm unsure about that last one). It's not to say that every episode that could be considered filler is terrible per se, but a lot of the time they only serve to flesh out background characters and act as world building instead tying into the climax of each show.

 

[Colon capital V]

Some madlad somehow got ahold of all of the stems that made up the Spongebob themesong (he deleted his channel probably because he made Nick clitty leak over this one, lmao)

 

[Kari Kamiya]

Did we ever find out who those kids in the intro were, or did everyone assume it was the producers' kids?

I just love how you can hear the other kids coming through with the second kid's audio lol.