Warhammer 40k

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Isn't the whole point of the black legion is that they kinda have their shit together? They're a semi unified chaos force to fight against the imperium. You don't have to have them topple the imperium but fuck the least GW can do is make them a real threat or give them a real win. Because if they actually won in any significant way once in a while it would make them showing actually exciting instead of "oh there's some spiky cannon fodder neat".

My point exactly. With how they're written, Chaos is far less like an existential threat and more like Rowboat's prison bitch ready to get their weekly ass-whooping like they always have.

After all stories are only as good as their villans and right now "abadon the failure" isn't cutting it.

GW is too busy selling Space Marines and pandering to SJWs to care about the actual story.

GW came close about a decade ago but it took them a long time to get there and they went into overdrive to build up good will. People also forget how long it took for them to get to their low point. They also were a lot more screwed up back then. There was no FAQs, 0 internet presence or engagement, and white dwarf slipped in quality.

That's something the grifters don't understand; the fact is, GW has been treating the fans like shit even back in the day before the internet became widely used.

IMO femstodes isn’t a short term problem for GW necessarily. The greater problem imo are people being less enthusiastic to buy minis so essentially less sales, especially with how often they’re just squatting armies and units. It’s not just one grievance but hundreds combined with the proliferation of 3d printing. Essentially anyone with a grievance (femstodes, GW being fascist, not liking the current codex, etc), can just 3d print for their hobby itch or buy from someone who does.

The thing is, the 3D printers have been with us for a while, and it hasn't caused the end of Games Workshop despite people saying it would. However, all it would take for that to change is for 3D printers to get cheaper and cheaper, to the point where it becomes far more economically feasible to buy a 3D printer instead of the official models. There's also the fact that GW never lowers their prices for their minis, so the gap is continuing to close even faster. Eventually, one purchase of GW minis might cost as much as a 3D Printer, which is when they'll finally feel the pain from people 3D printing their own figurines.

I don’t think it’ll kill them overnight just undercut some of their sales. But it can hurt them long run and it could spiral out of control.

That's the problem. The people who run companies like GW often lack foresight. If something doesn't affect them in the short-term they won't care about it, especially since in their company's history, people kept buying their shit despite them treating their customers like crap, so they'll have a false sense of security in thinking that this won't change anything at all. But by the time they see the change actually taking effect and harming their profits, it'll be too late.

I think their stores in the UK are at greater risk because they don’t let people play in a lot of their stores unless it’s a demo. Which is retarded. One of the things online stores which sell at a cheaper rate and Etsy can’t provide is a physical game space. People will buy things from their local stores because it provides a place to play and a community. Also people will buy things from stores/employees they like. So imo they need goodwill if they want higher sales.

As if GW execs know the meaning of the term ''goodwill''. Most of the goodwill they've earned in the past few years, they've burned through, while relying on the whales and scalpers to buy stuff from them in bulk. If they were capable of showing goodwill to get higher sales, they'd have done so, instead, they're either calling their franchise's fans sexists, or they're jacking up the prices again, since the demand isn't dying down anytime soon.

 

[ZMOT]

Chaos is in the unfortunate position where they can’t win because it’d nuke the setting. It’s what made fantasy and old times specifically jarring. Chaos and specifically Chaos warriors were one of the favorite factions of a lot of the early writers/game devs.

didn't stop them before. I'd like to see 40k end times simply for absolute massive amount of squealing from paypiggies, it might even create it's own eye of butthurt.

 

[p1138]

The thing is, the 3D printers have been with us for a while, and it hasn't caused the end of Games Workshop despite people saying it would. However, all it would take for that to change is for 3D printers to get cheaper and cheaper, to the point where it becomes far more economically feasible to buy a 3D printer instead of the official models. There's also the fact that GW never lowers their prices for their minis, so the gap is continuing to close even faster. Eventually, one purchase of GW minis might cost as much as a 3D Printer, which is when they'll finally feel the pain from people 3D printing their own figurines.

3d printers are already cheap enough for that. 300-400 for a printer and being able to print an army beats GW pricing by a mile even if the resin is $50 a bottle. Compare that to a $200 limited run battleforce box, another 150 for a combat patrol, and then a couple of extra model purchases and you might have a 2000 point army(depending on the faction you picked, way off for admech and their $1/point right now lol) but won't have any variety to change up your list.

The problem is that 3d printers currently are their own hobby. Need a wash and curing setup. Need a dedicated room or somehow be able to vent the printer outdoors(that shit reeks and anyone who says different is either lying or already has 5 types of cancer). The resin being toxic is a barrier for people. Needing to clean up supports if they weren't done perfectly, takes more effort than dealing with mold lines. Need to tune the printer to match the resin. Once you've got all of that sorted, then you need a source of STL files that don't look like shit(even paying for these still costs far less than GW models). All of that shit acts as barriers for people who can handle tech, people who can't? good luck with that. And that's a mess of things to do on top of still having to assembling things at times and having to paint the things.

 

[Sinner's Sandwich]

Make it so prolific that it has its own genre, and if it gets popular enough, the Left will have to abandon the female Custodes/Astartes idea for fear of the coomers showing up and jizzing all over it if they push on with the idea.

It's coomers who want them tho.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

It's coomers who want them tho.

SJWs and coomers do not see eye to eye. Just look at the whole Stellar Blade fiasco.

Chaos is in the unfortunate position where they can’t win because it’d nuke the setting. It’s what made fantasy and old times specifically jarring. Chaos and specifically Chaos warriors were one of the favorite factions of a lot of the early writers/game devs.

That is the problem. They could easily change the setting like they did when they made the jump from 2nd edition to 3rd edition, or like when they made the change from 7th to 8th edition. Give Chaos its own ''Indomitus Crusade'' moment where they become something other than a narrative joke.

I like your idea of a chaos imperium or at least focus more on the warbands/chaos held territory in the warp. It’d make them more interesting, allow them to be a threat, and they could lose or gain ground.

My point exactly. If they're going to be the Imperium's darker mirror faction, then at least give them the same strength. Hell, make them the source of the grimdark, not the Imperium. The Imperium should be bad, but Chaos should be ten times worse, and the idea that half or even most of the galaxy is ruled by them would make the setting ten times more grimdark and fun. As opposed to a ''decaying'' Imperium suddenly gaining strength because Rowboat and his friends have plot armor. That's not grimdark, that's just M-rated capeshit with power armor.

didn't stop them before. I'd like to see 40k end times simply for absolute massive amount of squealing from paypiggies, it might even create it's own eye of butthurt.

It doesn't have to be an end times scenario, just make Chaos into something that can be a peer faction with the Imperium. You wouldn't need to change anything about the tabletop, it would just be that lore-wise, you have two empires of similar strength and power fighting each other. Like how Spain fought the Ottomans, or how the Byzantines fought the Persians.

The problem is that 3d printers currently are their own hobby. Need a wash and curing setup. Need a dedicated room or somehow be able to vent the printer outdoors(that shit reeks and anyone who says different is either lying or already has 5 types of cancer). The resin being toxic is a barrier for people. Needing to clean up supports if they weren't done perfectly, takes more effort than dealing with mold lines. Need to tune the printer to match the resin. Once you've got all of that sorted, then you need a source of STL files that don't look like shit(even paying for these still costs far less than GW models). All of that shit acts as barriers for people who can handle tech, people who can't? good luck with that. And that's a mess of things to do on top of still having to assembling things at times and having to paint the things.

Then that means 3D printers have a long way to go before they can replace Games Workshop's model kits. And 3D printing won't nuke GW the way the grifters claim it would. Hell, if GW merch is still on Ebay for markup prices, that means the demand for them is still strong despite all the calls for boycott from the grifters and the lorefans.

GW will make another windfall profit this year, and the boycotters will just look silly.

 

[p1138]

Then that means 3D printers have a long way to go before they can replace Games Workshop's model kits. And 3D printing won't nuke GW the way the grifters claim it would. Hell, if GW merch is still on Ebay for markup prices, that means the demand for them is still strong despite all the calls for boycott from the grifters and the lorefans.

GW will make another windfall profit this year, and the boycotters will just look silly.

Of course. Hell, GW has been slapfighting against recasters from china and russia for years now with such little success that there are multiple recasters of decent quality that have publicly facing websites. The guy who runs wahapedia has a C&D from GW framed on his wall supposedly. Battlescribe and newrecruit make their paid list building app worthless, yet they still exist. Even GWs attempts at trying to keep working trove links off of 4chan with books, audiobooks, etc. hasn't done much. And we know a few years back GW was hiring for an internal snitch department that worked with their legal team.

Meanwhile, GW has been making more money year over year for the past decade. The silliest part about assuming 3d printing is going to put GW out of business any day now? What about... literally every other company that produces model kits? Bandai, Tamiya, Airfix, Revell, etc. they're all still in business and it's a hell of a lot less of an issue for people to be posting an STL of a fighter jet or whatever, but people still pay.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Of course. Hell, GW has been slapfighting against recasters from china and russia for years now with such little success that there are multiple recasters of decent quality that have publicly facing websites. The guy who runs wahapedia has a C&D from GW framed on his wall supposedly. Battlescribe and newrecruit make their paid list building app worthless, yet they still exist. Even GWs attempts at trying to keep working trove links off of 4chan with books, audiobooks, etc. hasn't done much. And we know a few years back GW was hiring for an internal snitch department that worked with their legal team.

Indeed. The options for circumnavigating GW has existed for some time, despite GW's efforts. And yet they still stand strong.

Meanwhile, GW has been making more money year over year for the past decade. The silliest part about assuming 3d printing is going to put GW out of business any day now?

Many of these culture war grifters, some of whom are within the 40K fanbase, have been claiming that 3D printing will make GW bankrupt for several years now, yet by 3D-printing Warhammer stuff, it just goes to show that they're still promoting a GW product. And at the end of the day, the most low-effort way to get it is still GW, so promoting 40K will always work in GW's favor; these grifters, by bringing more attention to GW and 40K, are doing GW's advertising for them.

What about... literally every other company that produces model kits? Bandai, Tamiya, Airfix, Revell, etc. they're all still in business and it's a hell of a lot less of an issue for people to be posting an STL of a fighter jet or whatever, but people still pay.

That's because companies like Bandai don't fuck their customers in the ass with stupid policies. Hell, Gundam model kits come with colored plastic and stickers so you don't need the paint the fuckers, just assemble them and you're good to go. Bandai doesn't have to worry about that shit, their customers are loyal, they have no reason to complain, and they will continue to buy model kits and action figures, as well as cartoon episodes and other merch.

 

[augment]

Bandai has a completely different business model for model kits.
They'll release a wave of kits based on some media mix, like a free to watch series. Those kits are put out to retail and made also available online through their online shop.
Older kits, such as 2000s era gunpla get rereleased too, but mostly the high grades. This has nothing to do with customer loyalty and everything to do with long term marketing. Gunpla based on the One Year war is constantly being refreshed or re-edited ala The Origin, Unicorn, or its countless offshoots, this is how they appease their older fans. At the same time bandai will seek out newer fans with modern, glitzed out or even wacky stuff - this is where stuff like code geass and eureka seven come in. They can afford this because they own what used to be sunrise. And they'll also cash in on the tiered videogames.

GW sells their miniatures as if they were collectibles. Once the production run is sold, that's fucking it; you are expected to buy and sell those you won't be painting. Like the concept of "splitting" a big box like Leviathan is completely alien in all other forms of hobby businesses. Because there's no expansion strategy to attract more people into the hobby, their only profit offset measure is "jack up the prices again". They have no clue about the long term beyond "how are we gonna wreck the tabletop rules to favor a faction we've begun making product for".

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Bandai has a completely different business model for model kits.
They'll release a wave of kits based on some media mix, like a free to watch series. Those kits are put out to retail and made also available online through their online shop.
Older kits, such as 2000s era gunpla get rereleased too, but mostly the high grades.
GW sells their miniatures as if they were collectibles. Once the production run is sold, that's fucking it; you are expected to buy and sell those you won't be painting. Like the concept of "splitting" a big box like Leviathan is completely alien in all other forms of hobby businesses. Because there's no expansion strategy to attract more people into the hobby, their only profit offset measure is "jack up the prices again".

Like I said, Bandai doesn't fuck over their customers the way GW does. I can understand a Gundam fan being loyal to them and buying their kits and figures because of brand loyalty; GW, on the other hand, jacks up the prices on their merch as a way of life, yet people keep buying like crack addicts.

 

[augment]

They kinda do though. If you pay attention, a heavily requested model will be put up to regular retail, but the fan favorite variant will only be made available through their store subscription service, premium bandai. Since this is a japanese company that doesn't really care for any other part of the world, if you want those model kits you'll be paying a markup and some stupid shipping fee.
Although as of late they've begun to consider expanding PB to the US.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

They kinda do though. If you pay attention, a heavily requested model will be put up to regular retail, but the fan favorite variant will only be made available through their store subscription service, premium bandai. Since this is a japanese company that doesn't really care for any other part of the world, if you want those model kits you'll be paying a markup and some stupid shipping fee.
Although as of late they've begun to consider expanding PB to the US.

Which means they're actually listening. Yes, Jap companies can be greedy, but GW can compete with them rather well. I'm not bold enough to say that GW's as strict as Nintendo, but they'll be there soon enough.

 

[iceteayo]

People who brag that 3D printing will kill GW treat 3D printers wrong, you can effectively play anything yet you settle with still playing Warhammer?

>Oh but it’s not supporting GW

All that effort to not give GW a dime proves you are too ingrained into Warhammer. You aren’t a wargaming fan first you are a Warhammer fan first.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

People who brag that 3D printing will kill GW treat 3D printers wrong, you can effectively play anything yet you settle with still playing Warhammer?

>Oh but it’s not supporting GW

All that effort to not give GW a dime proves you are too ingrained into Warhammer. You aren’t a wargaming fan first you are a Warhammer fan first.

That is what most of these people are. They cut their teeth into 40K, seeing it as this sci-fi grimdark IP that's more cool and hardcore than others; they spent years belittling other sci-fi franchises and their fans just for it, and letting go of it is hard for them. So of course, even though they could probably make up their own IP and play it, they'd rather play 40K and pretend it doesn't support GW, even though it still promotes something GW makes money off of.

Asking these fans not to support Warhammer is like asking a man not to breathe.

 

[p1138]

People who brag that 3D printing will kill GW treat 3D printers wrong, you can effectively play anything yet you settle with still playing Warhammer?

That actually gets into a separate and probably more complicated problem in wargaming. If you want to play miniature war games, what are you actually likely to be able to find a game for?

Historicals. Most are rank and flank, but lets throw in the fantasy stuff in with this as well. Even WHFB was dead already when GW nuked it. In some limited areas you can find ASOIF and kings of war communities, but they aren't everywhere.
SW Legion? Congrats you've moved from one shitty company to another. Same thing with Marvel Crisis Protocol and Shatterpoint.
Infinity, this does have more of a presence internationally but it's not a big "army" game. Same with Malifaux for that matter even if the company is on the verge of being dead.
Conquest isn't quite rank and flank, but you can't just walk into a game store on a weekend and expect to find a game or even call stores and find that people play it nearby

Realistically speaking, what else does this leave? Warmahordes? LOL, no. Dropfleet Commander? Fallout Wasteland Warfare? Elder Scrolls? Deadzone? Hardly anyone plays any of this stuff. Bushido is I think recent so maybe that'll pick up? OPR is free, can use any minis you want with no question, has a fairly short set of core rules and some faction rules to go with it, and still hardly gets played regardless of how many youtube people promote it incessantly. There's a bunch of other systems as well, that just no one plays, and it's not like stores are going to be supporting events for these systems they don't sell it all. It's hard enough to get stores to do demo games for some of the unpopular stuff they actually do stock. I'm not even going to try and make the argument that stores won't like people with 3d printed armies because that's bullshit as plenty of those people still show up and buy brushes/paint/primer and other random shit they need for their hobby.

So yeah, that's the biggest reason people fall back to GW games. They can't find games for anything the hell else regardless of minis. Now if you're referring to youtube channels that's different. Some have covered it before, MS_Paints has been more open about it. If he can't figure out a way to fit something GW related in the title or thumbnail, his views go to shit. And he doesn't even do youtube as a fulltime job like some of these people try to do.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

So yeah, that's the biggest reason people fall back to GW games. They can't find games for anything the hell else regardless of minis. Now if you're referring to youtube channels that's different. Some have covered it before, MS_Paints has been more open about it. If he can't figure out a way to fit something GW related in the title or thumbnail, his views go to shit. And he doesn't even do youtube as a fulltime job like some of these people try to do.

True. But the obvious result from that is they cannot move wargaming out of GW's hands. The more Warhammer 40K stays the dominant wargame, the more it continues to command the leading share in the tabletop wargaming market. Which again, means that any idea of boycott or moving on becomes impossible/pointless for tabletop wargamers, unless they leave the hobby behind as a whole, or go play some other less popular tabletop wargame with their friends.

This of course, means that GW will continue to see their profits go up and their stock prices surge, despite all the angry fans saying they're not spending a dime on Warhammer ever again.

I think at most, I've seen Discourse Miniatures and Attention Span Labs promote other wargames. Discourse has a video going over some of the tabletop wargames you mentioned, while Attention Span Labs has been promoting other wargames over the course of several videos.

 

[p1138]

I think at most, I've seen Discourse Miniatures and Attention Span Labs promote other wargames. Discourse has a video going over some of the tabletop wargames you mentioned, while Attention Span Labs has been promoting other wargames over the course of several videos.

Plenty have. One Page Rules aside, and off the top of my head...

MS_Paints I've seen talk about everything from the Aliens game to Frostgrave. Vince Venturella and Tabletop Minions(he does this far more than Vince) have not only discussed other games, they've published some of their own. Guerilla Miniature Games covers a bunch of games, and has almost killed his channel a couple of times he covers so much besides GW(he's also a little grating to be honest). 52 miniatures is mostly about painting but promotes other games. Sword & Steele does coomerbait thumbnails at times, but covers non GW product.
I found the MS_Paints video where he just lays out the problem with not covering GW shit, including discussing a video he did about restoring a metal land speeder but only 1/4 of the video is about the GW model.

This video he goes over actually having gone a year without covering GW stuff. However... he still had to stick shit in the titles like "warhammer tools" or "how warhammer paint is made" "40k terrain", etc.

I'm sure there's plenty of others as well. But most of the ones I didn't list only rarely bring up other game systems, and if they do it's only because the flavor of the week for the youtube algorithm is to stick it to GW because of the latest outrage so they'll promoate battletech or some other shit that they never actually play.

 

[Kharash]

That will never happen. Eldar players won't talk to GW anymore.

I'm pretty sure every Eldar fan is immune to marine wank by now. I know I am.

 

[The Tall Man]

The thing is, the 3D printers have been with us for a while, and it hasn't caused the end of Games Workshop despite people saying it would. However, all it would take for that to change is for 3D printers to get cheaper and cheaper, to the point where it becomes far more economically feasible to buy a 3D printer instead of the official models. There's also the fact that GW never lowers their prices for their minis, so the gap is continuing to close even faster. Eventually, one purchase of GW minis might cost as much as a 3D Printer, which is when they'll finally feel the pain from people 3D printing their own figurines.

They're already incredibly cheap, but it's a hobby that requires learning about the printing process.
The current generation of 3D printers is nearly plug and play. If this trend continues, more people will get into 3D printing.
Once you can buy a 3D printer for $200 and printing becomes as simple as using a coffee machine, then Games Workshop will truly be ogre.

Edit: Haven't checked printer prices in a while and the Elegoo Mars 4 is around $219 right now, that will give you enough detail for even the smallest minis. Anycubic Photon Mono 2 is $179 that is insane.

 

[ZMOT]

So yeah, that's the biggest reason people fall back to GW games. They can't find games for anything the hell else regardless of minis. Now if you're referring to youtube channels that's different. Some have covered it before, MS_Paints has been more open about it. If he can't figure out a way to fit something GW related in the title or thumbnail, his views go to shit. And he doesn't even do youtube as a fulltime job like some of these people try to do.

it's the same for DND, even with the OGL stuff last year. it's pulls in the most viewers, thus "content creators" doing it for the money, not the actual content. can't blame them, but it is what it is.

as for people sticking to GW, there is nothing preventing them playing something else when they already have the minis. they're usually just lazy and or outright dumb (in the sense constantly complaining about GW, and even more the game itself, but still stick to it like retarded little paypiggies even when there are other options right in front of them). it's not an issue of finding games, but simple lack of enthusiasm for actual tabletop and pushing plastic dudes together. they're not better than secondaries really when you think about it. they wouldn't even need to stop "playing warhammer", they could just use different rules, or even older edition. but nah....

People who brag that 3D printing will kill GW treat 3D printers wrong, you can effectively play anything yet you settle with still playing Warhammer?

it won't kill GW, there will always be corporate whores and ignorant paypiggies. however you have to remember who is more likely to go for recasts and prints, and it's usually not the casual player (unless they manage to have printer guy in their circle, spending less money still rules the world, even more when there's no way to play "officially" in your area anyway).

people also underestimate the network effect of printers. you don't need everyone to have one, you just need 1-2 cranking out dudes 24/7, which leads to not only one guy not spending money on warhammer, but a whole bunch of them. there's also the increased likelihood of leaving the captured demographic: if you already stopped paying for GW plastic, why pay for anything else, or warhammer at all?
3d printing won't ween off the people that are there for MUH WARHAMMER off nottingham's tits, but there's a good chance it will work on some of the actual wargamers, which then can easily lead to the same situation just in reverse: imagine all the games around you are not warhammer - what you gonna play?

 

[FedPostalService]

I’m getting a massive collection of old Warhammer stuff as a mate is doing a clear out. Think it’s mostly Fantasy but I’m chuffed.