Ask @WelperHelper99 about mormon shit - Cope and Seethe edition

[AgendaPoster]

I don't need to, they're nothing but propaganda that lead to many, many deaths of not just Joseph Smith, but women and children from butchering mobs. They hated him because he told the truth. Shut the fuck up on things you know nothing about.

Are women and children more important than a Prophet of God?!?

 

[Abimelech]

Hmmmm. Anyone else remember when he said this:

Joseph Smith... was the most flawed leader in history.

Now all of a sudden saying anything bad about "the most flawed leader in history" is just "propaganda."

 

[Scipio Neomericanus]

So when it comes to hot drinks, I find it pretty telling that both coffee and tea are caffeinated beverages - and they were almost certainly the only caffeinated drinks available and/or widely known to Americans at the time. So tea tea is haram, but herbal tea isn't... Aren't they both "hot drinks?" Wouldn't the most contextually accurate interpretation be that caffeine is what's haram? It always feels like a cope when I hear mormons argue that caffeine is ok as long as it isn't coffee or tea.

I'm also bothered by the fact that the church juices the faithful through tithing and that it, at the same time, pressures people into giving two years of their life to missionary work and expects missionaries to pay for the privilege. All while having assets exceeding $100B. Seems like an extremely kikemaxxed scam to me tbh.

 

[Abimelech]

It always feels like a cope when I hear mormons argue that caffeine is ok as long as it isn't coffee or tea.

Agreed.

It's the equivalent of a "cafeteria style Christian" but in this case with Mormonism. They pick and choose which parts of the religion they like enough to obey them, ignore the parts they don't like, then act smug about how holy they are.

And the caffeine thing isn't the only item they do this with. Many of them still can't get over other little changes that have been made to the religion over the years. Some of them still want polygamy, even though the church has to jettison it in order for Utah to become a state. Some of them still remember when black people were the mark of Cain, even though that had to officially get canned once it was no longer politically correct.

And then there is the really goofy stuff, like Mormon Bigfoot and jump humping. Mormons hate talking about this stuff and want to pretend it isn't something that some of their members believe in, because they realize how bad it makes them look.

I'm also bothered by the fact that the church juices the faithful through tithing and that it, at the same time, pressures people into giving two years of their life to missionary work and expects missionaries to pay for the privilege. All while having assets exceeding $100B. Seems like an extremely kikemaxxed scam to me tbh.

Definitely agreed on this too.

The finances of the Mormon church and the extreme efforts they have gone to in order to conceal their exact holdings is very sketchy.

And I too found it very dubious that they both expect young men to do missionary work at such a young age AND pay for the privilege of doing so. No other religion does anything like this (other than perhaps Scientology), and most Christian churches take pride in financially supporting missionary work, while also choosing older, better trained and more emotionally mature individuals to do the work.

Plus, those young men are given very little training for their mission, given no choice at all in where the mission is performed and they are forbidden from using the internet or communicating with their family and friends while on the mission. These young men are expected to argue for and defend Mormonism, when most of them have very likely never heard any of the counter-arguments against Mormonism. They would be lucky to know even half of the stuff that has been discussed in this thread. That all seems like very cult-like mentality to get these untrained kids to promote your religion for you and make them pay for it themselves!

 

[AnimeGirlConnoisseur]

Hello @WelperHelper99 , I've seen you around and you seem like a nice guy. I would like to ask you some questions, about the LDS. They generally appear to be nice people and the ones I've met don't seem to be cult members. Some of them are educated and all of them are able to have interests in things that are not about religion. They also have friends who are not a part of LDS. These are all good signs and show that the religion is not a cult. With that being said, there are some things about the religion that either don't sit right with me or make me curious.

1. Why are all lapsed Mormons fucking weirdos? I've seen a lot of people leave Catholicism or other branches of Christianity and they still normal people, but when Mormons leave they tend to end up as weird degenerates. Why is that?
2. Why do you guys do all of this weird sex stuff like bubble porn and the thing where two people get into a bed and a third person shakes it so that they can simulate sex? I completely see the value in celibacy and all of that stuff, but if you're nutting you're nutting. You might as well go all in. You're getting all of the bad stuff while making things complicated and worse.
3. Why do you guys like black people? I heard that back in the day, your holy book said that black people were turned black because their ancestors sinned against God (something similar happened to natives). Then in the 70s, your leader just arbitrarily declared that Blacks and natives were actually cool and could join their church. I don't want to go around lynching black people or whatever, but don't you think that sort of 180 degree turn is a bit worrying? You stopped hating black people, because the CEO of Mormonism told you to and he probably told you to stop hating black people, because that's what the popular opinion was at the time. What's going to stop the next CEO of Mormonism from telling you that gays, troons, and pedos are God's chosen people and that you need to start sacrificing babies to Moloch in your churches?
4. What is the deal with Mitt Romney? Why do the Mormon people of Utah continue to send this fucking snake to D.C.?
5. What is the benefit of adding all of this stuff about America and fallen civilizations to Christianity? I think that Christianity makes sense once you get past the basic atheist arguments. What does Mormonism add to the basic idea of Christianity; the idea that the world is fake and gay and you are doomed to die, but if you choose to follow the teachings of Jesus you can go to Heaven where everything is okay (over-simplification, but I think you get the point). It seems like a simple message that can resonate with a lot of people, why add all of this stuff with golden plates and other planets?

 

[Abimelech]

It will be interesting to see how whelper tries to answer these questions. Most of them are issues that were raised earlier in the thread, but his usual go-to strategy was to either insist that the allegations are untrue (without providing any evidence) or to sidestep talking about them with some hand-wavey diversions about how much everyone would like being Mormon if they would just blindly believe it without asking all these questions about it.

Why are all lapsed Mormons fucking weirdos?

I have also noticed this phenomenon. Years ago when I had to visit Utah, some people in the know gave me a very valuable warning to keep in mind before I went. Everyone in Utah is either extremely Mormon (of the sort that would chase you with a hatchet for drinking a Coke in front of them) or extremely NOT Mormon (the sort with a Tumblr blog for their transgender warrior cats original characters).

I would say that the most likely explanation for this is that Mormonism is a cult. Most people attracted to cults were mentally ill before hand, but even if they weren't then the trauma of being in a cult surely didn't help. So once they get out of the cult, their craziness is apparent for all to see.

The thing which is most annoying to me about ex-mos, is that they don't hate Mormonism for the right reasons. They are mad that their Mormon parents told them being gay is a sin, but don't seem to care about the fact that the founder of the religion was a known scam artist. Further proof of mental illness if you ask me.

Why do you guys do all of this weird sex stuff like bubble porn and the thing where two people get into a bed and a third person shakes it so that they can simulate sex?

Whelper has been asked this before and just tried to brush it off as not being real. However, jump humping and other weird Mormon sex issues are very much a real thing.

don't you think that sort of 180 degree turn is a bit worrying? You stopped hating black people, because the CEO of Mormonism told you to and he probably told you to stop hating black people, because that's what the popular opinion was at the time. What's going to stop the next CEO of Mormonism from telling you that gays, troons, and pedos are God's chosen people

YES! This has been one of the most common and long standing criticisms of Mormonism. And it wasn't just their stance on black people either. They also changed their stance on polygamy and even the name of their cult. Each of these changes was made in order to make the cult more attractive to normies and reduce heat on them from society in general. But what are we supposed to think of a religion where their most sacred beliefs can be changed at any time for mere convenience?

This issue has also been raised previously in this thread and I have not seen Whelper offer any meaningful rebuttal or apologetic for it.

What is the deal with Mitt Romney? Why do the Mormon people of Utah continue to send this fucking snake to D.C.?

Mormons always vote for fellow Mormons, no matter how bad they are politically. I suppose the loyalty and reliable voting patterns are commendable, but it's still a loss if you send a loser who sells out to the Democrats every single time.

What is the benefit of adding all of this stuff about America and fallen civilizations to Christianity?

There isn't any. Particularly when the alleged events are probably false and the "translations" created by Josef Smith are demonstrably works of fiction.

I've actually been confronting Whelper about this issue myself and he flat out refused to even address what I said while swearing that I was lying (once again, without evidence). I doubt you will get a particularly different response.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Hello @WelperHelper99 , I've seen you around and you seem like a nice guy. I would like to ask you some questions, about the LDS. They generally appear to be nice people and the ones I've met don't seem to be cult members. Some of them are educated and all of them are able to have interests in things that are not about religion. They also have friends who are not a part of LDS. These are all good signs and show that the religion is not a cult. With that being said, there are some things about the religion that either don't sit right with me or make me curious.

1. Why are all lapsed Mormons fucking weirdos? I've seen a lot of people leave Catholicism or other branches of Christianity and they still normal people, but when Mormons leave they tend to end up as weird degenerates. Why is that?

Mormon culture is strict compared to a lot of branches of Christianity. You WILL go to church on sunday, you WILL read your scriptures, You will NOT smoke or drink, etc. It's not hard honestly, but that leads to what i call "Delayed teenager syndrome". Basically someone that leaves the church gets edgy but not to the level of hard core edgy; i.e. they pick up smoking or they have sex outside of marriage. And they think it makes them a badass.

2. Why do you guys do all of this weird sex stuff like bubble porn and the thing where two people get into a bed and a third person shakes it so that they can simulate sex? I completely see the value in celibacy and all of that stuff, but if you're nutting you're nutting. You might as well go all in. You're getting all of the bad stuff while making things complicated and worse.

I am partially convinced that stuff is a myth. I've seen no real proof.

3. Why do you guys like black people? I heard that back in the day, your holy book said that black people were turned black because their ancestors sinned against God (something similar happened to natives). Then in the 70s, your leader just arbitrarily declared that Blacks and natives were actually cool and could join their church. I don't want to go around lynching black people or whatever, but don't you think that sort of 180 degree turn is a bit worrying? You stopped hating black people, because the CEO of Mormonism told you to and he probably told you to stop hating black people, because that's what the popular opinion was at the time. What's going to stop the next CEO of Mormonism from telling you that gays, troons, and pedos are God's chosen people and that you need to start sacrificing babies to Moloch in your churches?

First, that was just the natives lol. Second, Blacks in the church have been complicated. Joseph Smith actually had no problems with them. Then Brigahm Young became Prophet. He didn't like black people. And so that "tradition" as it were of blacks not having the priesthood and such persisted until the 70's. It was a error that deserved to be corrected.

As for the second part, the Church has been pretty consistent throughout nearly 200 years on gays, unlike blacks. It would be a giant leap to allow any of that gay shit in.

4. What is the deal with Mitt Romney? Why do the Mormon people of Utah continue to send this fucking snake to D.C.?

His grandfather was a Apostle. The Romney's held a lot of sway. Until Mitt became a senator. He is hated, and isn't running for reelection because he would fucking lose.

5. What is the benefit of adding all of this stuff about America and fallen civilizations to Christianity? I think that Christianity makes sense once you get past the basic atheist arguments. What does Mormonism add to the basic idea of Christianity; the idea that the world is fake and gay and you are doomed to die, but if you choose to follow the teachings of Jesus you can go to Heaven where everything is okay (over-simplification, but I think you get the point). It seems like a simple message that can resonate with a lot of people, why add all of this stuff with golden plates and other planets?

We believe it was something that happened and that Joseph Smith found and discovered records of these events in the americas on the golden plates. It also fills in a lot of parts about death and the afterlife. As for why I believe? I've seen things in my life that I can't explain otherwise. That simple.

 

[Abimelech]

Whelper has been asked this before and just tried to brush it off as not being real.

I am partially convinced that stuff is a myth.

I called that one!

Brigahm Young became Prophet. He didn't like black people. And so that "tradition" as it were of blacks not having the priesthood and such persisted until the 70's. It was a error that deserved to be corrected.

Woah there, chief!

You are saying that your religion recognizes a certain individual as a "prophet" even though he made an "error" which added racist ideas to your sacred "tradition" that later had to be corrected?

And you want me to take this religion seriously?

His grandfather was a Apostle. The Romney's held a lot of sway. Until Mitt became a senator. He is hated

So you firstly admit that the reason this guy ascended to power was because his Mormon family pulled strings for him.

But then you want us to think Mormons actually hate him, even though Mormons have been backing his political career and voting for him for over 20 years?

We believe it was something that happened

Yes, we know you believe it. The question presented for an answer is why you would suggest anyone else should believe it in light of the overwhelming evidence that it isn't true.

 

[WelperHelper99]

I called that one!

Woah there, chief!

You are saying that your religion recognizes a certain individual as a "prophet" even though he made an "error" which added racist ideas to your sacred "tradition" that later had to be corrected?

And you want me to take this religion seriously?

So you firstly admit that the reason this guy ascended to power was because his Mormon family pulled strings for him.

But then you want us to think Mormons actually hate him, even though Mormons have been backing his political career and voting for him for over 20 years?

Yes, we know you believe it. The question presented for an answer is why you would suggest anyone else should believe it in light of the overwhelming evidence that it isn't true.

My response is thusly:

 

[Abimelech]

Your response is to post a low quality gif insinuating that I'm an atheist?

Even an atheist makes more sense than a Mormon!

 

[WelperHelper99]

Your response is to post a low quality gif insinuating that I'm an atheist?

Even an atheist makes more sense than a Mormon!

View attachment 6027266

If the shoe fits...

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Woah there, chief!

You are saying that your religion recognizes a certain individual as a "prophet" even though he made an "error" which added racist ideas to your sacred "tradition" that later had to be corrected?

And you want me to take this religion seriously?

Why not? Being a prophet doesn’t make a person infallible and the religion includes a concept of abrogation.

It’s definitely one of the most fucked up parts of the church’s past theology, though. One of my big problems with it.

Brigham Young also had this bizarre thing called Adam-God doctrine that was nonsensical that future prophets outright admitted they didn’t know what the fuck he was talking about.

 

[1Tonka_Truck]

It's not hard honestly, but that leads to what i call "Delayed teenager syndrome". Basically someone that leaves the church gets edgy but not to the level of hard core edgy;

Inactive mormons are, to a man, the craziest motherfuckers I have ever interacted with. The only thing that comes close is high-functioning methhead truckers.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Inactive mormons are, to a man, the craziest motherfuckers I have ever interacted with. The only thing that comes close is high-functioning methhead truckers.

Well yeah, they turn into Russel Greers. Be it drugs, sex, coffee, anything to spite dad and that mean old Bishop that told them not to fuck up their lives. Anything.

 

[Abimelech]

Being a prophet doesn’t make a person infallible

In the Old Testament, a prophet was not allowed to prophesy false things, and those who did so were considered false prophets (Deuteronomy 13:2-5; 18:20-22). Basically, if an alleged "prophet" was wrong even one time, then they were killed and denounced as a heretic.

If a "prophet" in Mormonism doesn't meet the same requirements, then it's just further proof that Mormonism isn't a legitimate practice of Christianity.

It’s definitely one of the most fucked up parts of the church’s past theology, though. One of my big problems with it.

Yeah, I agree.

Brigham Young also had this bizarre thing called Adam-God doctrine that was nonsensical that future prophets outright admitted they didn’t know what the fuck he was talking about.

So the founder of the religion, a known scam artist who mistranslated documents, made up rules so goofy that future "prophets" of the religion couldn't even figure them out? Sounds once again like proof that something is amiss with this alleged religion.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

In the Old Testament, a prophet was not allowed to prophesy false things, and those who did so were considered false prophets (Deuteronomy 13:2-5; 18:20-22). Basically, if an alleged "prophet" was wrong even one time, then they were killed and denounced as a heretic.

I will want to remember that. Does sound familiar.

If a "prophet" in Mormonism doesn't meet the same requirements, then it's just further proof that Mormonism isn't a legitimate practice of Christianity.

It’s its own religion spinoff of Christianity like Christianity is of Judaism.

Mormonism also teaches that in a conflict with original Christian scriptures the Mormon teaching is correct. If I’m not mistaken the argument is that they are not sola scriptura, infallible Bible types, the Bible is understood to have been a work of man over centuries, but the Book of Mormon and other texts were directly received.

Also like Islam. You could even say that Doctrines and Covenants is like the Hadiths.

Yeah, I agree.

So the founder of the religion, a known scam artist who mistranslated documents, made up rules so goofy that future "prophets" of the religion couldn't even figure them out? Sounds once again like proof that something is amiss with this alleged religion.

He’s not the founder of the religion and you should know that. Young was Smiths successor.

But yes, Young was the one that went public with polygamy, introduced the anti-Black teachings, introduced Adam-God doctrine (some weird shit about Adam BEING God, which is perplexing because Mormonism was also Arian in its rejection of the Trinity), and laid the basis for what eventually became the Word of Wisdom (Mormon kosher). And was the political leader that lead them to Utah where they developed into an ethnic group, forged a homeland, and for a time had a de facto independent state.

I’d say you might say that Young was as important to Mormonisms development as Paul was to Jesus’ Christianity.

 

[WelperHelper99]

He’s not the founder of the religion and you should know that. Young was Smiths successor.

But yes, Young was the one that went public with polygamy, introduced the anti-Black teachings, introduced Adam-God doctrine (some weird shit about Adam BEING God, which is perplexing because Mormonism was also Arian in its rejection of the Trinity), and laid the basis for what eventually became the Word of Wisdom (Mormon kosher). And was the political leader that lead them to Utah where they developed into an ethnic group, forged a homeland, and for a time had a de facto independent state.

I’d say you might say that Young was as important to Mormonisms development as Paul was to Jesus’ Christianity.

Brigham Young is insanely important as you said. I would say he did his best at the time. He was leading a state, a people, and a Church. If he screwed up, that's not God's fault, not the Church's, but the man. And that is a important distinction.

 

[Abimelech]

It’s its own religion spinoff of Christianity like Christianity is of Judaism.

But you may note an important difference. Christians don't try to convince Jewish people that we are also Jewish just like them. In fact, the division between "gentiles" and Jews was an important topic of discussion and controversy in the New Testament. If someone today says they are Jewish, then they are Jewish. If someone says they are Christian, they are Christian. We don't have any qualms about recognizing these are separate religions.

So Mormons may be a "spin off" as you say, but by spinning off into a radically different belief system which rejects important aspects of the original religion, they cannot claim to still be Christian. It's not wrong to draw a dividing line between these two groups.

Mormonism also teaches that in a conflict with original Christian scriptures the Mormon teaching is correct. If I’m not mistaken the argument is that they are not sola scriptura, infallible Bible types, the Bible is understood to have been a work of man over centuries, but the Book of Mormon and other texts were directly received.

That's an interesting take on it, but okay. If what you say is true then that verifies my point. If Mormons reject Christian teachings and claim that their teachings are more authentic and/or override the Christian teachings, then they are clearly practicing a different religion from Christianity.

He’s not the founder of the religion and you should know that.

My mistake, I misread your post and thought that you were speaking about Smith, not Young.

But again, in that case, it means we have two very severe false prophets back to back. Smith lied about the origin of his beliefs, he mistranslated documents and had numerous severe morals flaws. He is then immediately followed by Young, who introduced several highly controversial teachings that had to be later deemed "errors" and written out of church history when they became politically incorrect. None of this speaks of a legitimate religion that should be taken seriously.

Young was as important to Mormonisms development as Paul was to Jesus’ Christianity.

And again, imagine the state of Christianity if we said that Paul was a false prophet and had to retroactively delete all his writings from our scriptures. That is the boat which Mormonism is in and it flatly makes them look like fools at best, if not an entire religion of false teachers.

 

[Space Police]

@WelperHelper99 I've noticed you swear a lot in your posts; is that at odds with a virtuous Mormon lifestyle? Most Christian denominations consider swearing a sin. It's also interesting you use the word "Mormon" since I thought Nelson advised you to use the church's full name whenever talking about it.
Also, not to fan the flames too much, but why do you think homosexuality is a sin? If most methods of conversion therapy on a gay person failed, would you rather that that gay person live as a transsexual and justify it as them having a "medical condition with a brain/body mismatch and it's okay because that's what God planned"? Last I checked Mormons were more accommodating to trannies than gay people.

 

[The Tall Man]

@WelperHelper99
How do Mormons view Jews and Judaism?
What do they think the Jew's role is in the end times?
Is the Mormon's end times different than the regular Christian one?