Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

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Do you believe that this series will turn to shit?


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Make Brandon Rogers the lead writer. At least one major problem solved (although more will remain).
I think it depends on what Viv ultimately decides she wants to write. If she wants the show to be comedy, she needs to step back and appoint a different writer. HH/HB definitely could pivot into full on comedy, but I feel like she really wants to do a soap opera/melodrama series. Not to say those shows can't have jokes and stuff in them, but it definitely requires a different comedy approach, and the comedy is ultimately less important than the angsty melodrama focus.

I think in simplest terms, she needs to decide if she wants to do a sitcom or a soap. There's a world where she could do both, but you need a certain comedy style to make that work, otherwise you risk too much tonal whiplash or the jokey elements overshadowing/invalidating the dramatic ones.

I'd personally rather it become a comedy because I'd enjoy that more, but if I was giving Viv genuine advice, I'd ultimately recommend going the melodrama route because that's clearly what she knows how to write/where her interest is/arguably where most of her current positive fandom's interest is.
 
Adam is written to be (again) a total cartoon jock villain for plot's sake, but his blasé personality is endearing to some people, and his justifications for killing demons also make him look cool.
To be fair to Adam, Vivzie was selling him as a cool villain especially because Alex Brightman is voicing him and embraces the fandom for him.

However Alastor I feel fits your model more because he’s presented as this super intimidating mastermind who is scheming and is super strong. Yet he comes across as a tryhard edgelord who spills his spaghetti when put up against higher tier characters like Adam and Lucifer.

Two more characters I can put are Sera and Millie since Viv’s female characters are a mixed bag and these two are honestly the worst ones

Sera is presented as this morally grey antagonist who condones Adam’s behavior but believes the exterminations are a necessary evil for the greater good, but comes across as a paranoid idiot who has a lot of resources to figure out if the source of her paranoia is true but doesn’t bother too cause lazy writing then has Charlie appear in Heaven court yet doesn’t think she will make the exterminations public.

Millie is someone Vivzie insists is a strong independent women, but literally every character conflict she has is at the service of another character and her entire personality revolves around being strong and loving Moxxie.
 
To be fair to Adam, Vivzie was selling him as a cool villain especially because Alex Brightman is voicing him and embraces the fandom for him.

However Alastor I feel fits your model more because he’s presented as this super intimidating mastermind who is scheming and is super strong. Yet he comes across as a tryhard edgelord who spills his spaghetti when put up against higher tier characters like Adam and Lucifer.

Two more characters I can put are Sera and Millie since Viv’s female characters are a mixed bag and these two are honestly the worst ones

Sera is presented as this morally grey antagonist who condones Adam’s behavior but believes the exterminations are a necessary evil for the greater good, but comes across as a paranoid idiot who has a lot of resources to figure out if the source of her paranoia is true but doesn’t bother too cause lazy writing then has Charlie appear in Heaven court yet doesn’t think she will make the exterminations public.

Millie is someone Vivzie insists is a strong independent women, but literally every character conflict she has is at the service of another character and her entire personality revolves around being strong and loving Moxxie.
Guess it's my turn for a wall of text.

I have mixed thoughts on Adam as a character. I think he's a great villain...just not a great villain in the show Viv created. If the show leaned more into the comedic angles, he's a perfect villain. The best way I can think to describe him is a combination of Zap Brannigan and Hank Scorpio, written through a teenage lens. Surprisingly, despite being one of the most violent characters, he's one of the least edgelordy in all the series, which is why I think so many people like him. He's just...fun. The reason I don't think he works for the rest of the show is he doesn't fit the mold of what Viv is trying to do with her villains, making them more of clever schemers who rely on manipulation and control. I think she wanted to do that with Adam to some extent, having him pull the wool over Heaven's eyes to justify exterminations, but when she tried to do that she just made Heaven look stupid as opposed to making Adam look particularly intelligent. And Adam definitely loses points for casually leaving angel steel weapons around Hell during the exterminations. But I think he fits the general tone of what Viv should go for, a goofier, less serious comedy that embraces the absurd.

I heard a lot about Alastor before watching the show and was surprised how boring and flat he was. The way he was described, I was expecting him to be the main character. I think the biggest issue is one of those things of "dumb person trying to write a clever character." The biggest issue overall is he doesn't really have any sort of motivation. For a manipulative character to work, we need to root for their manipulations because we know what they're aiming for. In comics, a lot of Joker's schemes work so well because we know the ultimate endgame is breaking Batman, so we understand why his plan involves XYZ. Lex Luthor wants to defeat/discredit Superman, so he manipulates/blackmails people to remain a corporate and trustworthy figure so he has resources for his master plans. Game of Thrones, especially the earlier seasons, had plenty of shrewd characters who were helping/elevating others to gain favor or discredit/remove rivals. Similar deal with Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul, there's lots of manipulative characters there and, even if we might not know what the final step of the plan is, we at least understand why the characters are manipulating things.

The best we can say about Alastor is he wants power, but that's so boring and vague. Part of his lack of motivation definitely comes from the ultimately limited worldbuilding. Hell is so bland and flat, I can't really imagine what him ruling it would look like. I guess people would listen to radio instead of television? And...that'd be fine, I guess, in a more "traditional" setting, but...it's hell. Why does hell have TV shows/radio/podcasts etc. in the first place? I feel like, despite seeming like a pretty prominent character, if you took Alastor out of the show almost nothing would change and someone like Husk could probably get a few extra lines to fulfill Alastor's overall purpose. I also don't understand *why* Alastor is so powerful, when I first heard about him I thought he was going to be some super devil that was originally part of Lucifier's rebellion or something, but he's just some serial killer dude from the 50's, not even a proper hellborn.

Calling Sera a character is being generous. I was about to say she shows up way too late in the show to feel relevant, but now that I'm thinking about it, I think she was actually in the earlier episodes but didn't do much of anything. I think it's a similar thing with Alastor, someone dumb trying to write a clever character, but we at least have some idea of what she wants. She's just incredibly incompetent and bad at her job.

Never saw HB so I can't comment on Millie...who I'm pretty sure is from there and not HH. The fact I'm not sure really says a lot about Viv's "strong indepedent women" characters. You can tell she isn't particularly interested in writing about female characters because they're all pretty bland and generic. I think at best, Viv likes the idea of a "girlboss" archetype, but because that's not really a thing in highschool, she doesn't know how to try and portray it. They, uhh, have lines I guess? And sometimes have things resembling personality traits? They technically move the plot forward through exposition, but all of their lines could be given to other characters and it'd have the same effect. Beyond that, it feels like their only purpose is to appease tumblr crowds with "perfect lesbians" but she clearly has minimal interest in them herself and wants to focus on her fetish, gay boys.
 
I think it depends on what Viv ultimately decides she wants to write. If she wants the show to be comedy, she needs to step back and appoint a different writer. HH/HB definitely could pivot into full on comedy, but I feel like she really wants to do a soap opera/melodrama series. Not to say those shows can't have jokes and stuff in them, but it definitely requires a different comedy approach, and the comedy is ultimately less important than the angsty melodrama focus.

I think in simplest terms, she needs to decide if she wants to do a sitcom or a soap. There's a world where she could do both, but you need a certain comedy style to make that work, otherwise you risk too much tonal whiplash or the jokey elements overshadowing/invalidating the dramatic ones.

I'd personally rather it become a comedy because I'd enjoy that more, but if I was giving Viv genuine advice, I'd ultimately recommend going the melodrama route because that's clearly what she knows how to write/where her interest is/arguably where most of her current positive fandom's interest is.
It's funny because Helluva Boss was supposed to be the comedy show, while Hazbin Hotel was the melodrama. But because Viv can't keep to her initial premise (ex. see Zoophobia for proof that this has always been a problem), we have essentially the Stolitz show. And since both Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss are in the same world well...the lore is completely screwed over.
 
Meanwhile, in a perfect universe.
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The other, less severe issue is Vivzie really isn't funny and struggles with comedy.
There are only two moments that made me genuinely laugh out loud. The first was in the first episode of HH, when Adam replied back to Charlie that the biggest problem in the world were ugly people, and he then looked for a brief moment directly into the camera. The other one was in SE2EP7 of HB, when Mammon said women aren't funny, and for a quick moment, the credit "Written by Vivienne Medrano" pops up and fades away. To be honest, if I can only remember two funny jokes from all the episodes produced over many years, it means the shows are really unfunny... Don't get me even started about the excessive swearing and sex 'jokes'.

Actually, no. Thinking about that Mammon joke brought the cynic out of me in full force. I now think that the intentional joke was to say 'women aren't funny' and to convey that Mammon's a bad character for saying that. The unintentional funny part of the credit popping up was meant for twitter users not to accuse the show of being misogynistic. 'GUYS, WE DON'T HATE WOMEN SERIOUSLY! SEE? IT'S WRITTEN BY A WOMAN AND SHE CAN SAY THAT! DON'T SPERG OUT!' That joke is just too clever for Viv to make.

Oh wait, I just remembered another moment when I laughed hard. It was when Blitz and Stolas had their gay dramatic showdown in the most recent episode. The stupidity just cracked my brain, I laughed like Mike Stoklasa.

Guess it's my turn for a wall of text.
I think walls of text are good. It shows the passion of the people writing about the topic. I guess my suggestion for the future is that when someone wants to write a long text wall, they should simply put it into a spoiler and beneath it write a TL;DR. (I'll start doing that myself)

It's funny because Helluva Boss was supposed to be the comedy show, while Hazbin Hotel was the melodrama.
It truly is a shame. When I watched the first season of HB, I thought I knew what to somewhat expect in season two. But then the show just gave me a melodrama whiplash.

Meanwhile, in a perfect universe.
Of course this timeline would've been nice and wholesome. But then the entire melodrama plot wouldn't happen!!
 
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That's the good ending still from the VN where you encourage Stolas to seek therapy and not self-destruct and settle for an imp because he's too immature to deal with his problems like, I dunno, a member of royalty.

You don't get it, man, dosing on Happy Pills and constantly gaslighting yourself that you and a lower caste member of society you prostituted into a relationship with were meant to be together even after knowing the wrongs and treating them like a slave and servant is the best way to handle everything!

Jokes aside, I can kind of get why he never bothered to tell anyone about it. It's royalty, and I don't think they'd care about his emotional/mental well being - Paimon's a major example as he completely dismisses his son's dislike of being in an arranged marriage in S2:E1. Though, he could've just used his imp butlers as (nonconsensual) therapists and force them to hear his every word about how he's "doomed to die alone" and blah-blah-blah other self-centered jank.

I think walls of text are good. It shows the passion of the people writing about the topic. I guess my suggestion for the future is that when someone wants to write a long text wall, they should simply put it into a spoiler and beneath it write a TL;DR. (I'll start doing that myself)

Oh, thank you. I should probably start doing that, too. Not everyone likes walls of texts and I'm already trying to tone down such walls.
 
There are only two moments that made me genuinely laugh out loud. The first was in the first episode of HH, when Adam replied back to Charlie that the biggest problem in the world were ugly people, and he then looked for a brief moment directly into the camera. The other one was in SE2EP7 of HB, when Mammon said women aren't funny, and for a quick moment, the credit "Written by Vivienne Medrano" pops up and fades away. To be honest, if I can only remember two funny jokes from all the episodes produced over many years, it means the shows are really unfunny... Don't get me even started about the excessive swearing and sex 'jokes'.
That's kinda why I didn't rank it as a higher issue, the show(s) are so unfunny that I'm not sure they were ever trying to technically be comedies in the first place. I mean, it's still an issue, but less severe if you're not explicitly writing a comedy. I know it gets tagged as "musical comedy" and when it was being recommended to me I heard it described as a comedy/parody of Disney films, but I don't know if Viv herself ever pitched it as a comedy or thinks it's particularly funny. If she did mean for it to be a comedy, it's definitely a bigger issue.
 
And why does hell itself have a fucking functional police force and prison system? Isn't hell punishment already? That would imply there are.. WRITTEN LAWS in hell, which, if you break and get caught, you get thrown into the slammer.
I assume that Vivzie's Hell is more forgiving than other interpretations of Hell, whereas the Hell I'm thinking about features no laws, and has several gangs, hate groups, and various other kinds of demons that have a whole lot of speciesism in regards to the many native populations of Hell and its sinners.
 
I also don't understand *why* Alastor is so powerful, when I first heard about him I thought he was going to be some super devil that was originally part of Lucifier's rebellion or something, but he's just some serial killer dude from the 50's, not even a proper hellborn.
Oh right, they never explain why he's so powerful, do they? In the pilot, he was such a big deal because he came the fuck out of nowhere and seemingly tore the pride ring the fuck up, toppling established overlords with more ease than any freshly spawned sinner should be able to, so my idea was (and still kinda is in my theoretical head version where the show's worldbuilding makes sense) that he did so much voodoo stuff that he had already become deeply acquainted with hell, knowing what voodoo powers he'd get when he died, who to go for first, and where to even go. But in canon, they never really seem to take the voodoo stuff any further beyond making Alastor a shitty Dr Facilier knockoff, shit doesn't make sense. Maybe Lilith made him stronger when he started working for her, but I have no clue why she would get some random-ass voodoo serial killer from the 50s to go kill people for her.
 
Oh right, they never explain why he's so powerful, do they? In the pilot, he was such a big deal because he came the fuck out of nowhere and seemingly tore the pride ring the fuck up, toppling established overlords with more ease than any freshly spawned sinner should be able to, so my idea was (and still kinda is in my theoretical head version where the show's worldbuilding makes sense) that he did so much voodoo stuff that he had already become deeply acquainted with hell, knowing what voodoo powers he'd get when he died, who to go for first, and where to even go. But in canon, they never really seem to take the voodoo stuff any further beyond making Alastor a shitty Dr Facilier knockoff, shit doesn't make sense. Maybe Lilith made him stronger when he started working for her, but I have no clue why she would get some random-ass voodoo serial killer from the 50s to go kill people for her.

Carmilla says all the overlords control the city because all of them together own 1 millions of souls and they discuss extermination cause they can lose souls, so the assumption is that soul ownership = powerlevel. In fact, this is the canon (?) explanation on the wikia. Logically, the reason alastor would be strong is because he owns the most souls. This makes sense by how often he summons spirits to solve things for him, those are his slaves.

The problem? It still doesnt explain how he became THE STRONGEST on day ONE. Even if we assume Alastor used voodoo to slave the souls of his victims" while he was alive and those carried post mortem, he would need an extremely high body count to powercreep every other overlord. How many souls does he own? 20? 50? 100? 1000? He must own more than all the Vees combined right?

It would make more sense if Alastor at least took the time to become the strongest or cheated his way to the top. Like, he got Husk soul and husk was an overlord so Alastor probably got ALL souls husk owned, meaning it would be a nice power boost right? This would explain the hype. Alastor is a smart guy who likes making deals so surely he could easily slaved his way to the top and once there he started targeting other overlords.

But NOPE, he simply falls into hell while being max level with no explanation.

Vaggie: seemingly overnight. He began to topple Overlords who have been dominant for centuries. That kind of raw power had never been harnessed by a mortal soul before. Then, he broadcast his carnage all throughout Hell just so everyone could witness his ability.

Vivzie made her edgy OC an overpowered isekai protag and didnt give a fuck what battleboarders think.

The only way i can think to salvage this is if Lilith made a deal with Alastor while he was alive and gave him a ton of souls so he already dropped into hell with more souls than any overlord.
 
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I agree with your theory about Lilith giving him a large soul ‘donation’ after he died because it makes the most sense. It explains his seemingly overpowered nature when he entered Hell. But then it begs the question as to why she did that. Why was he chosen, and for what purpose?

If we follow this chain of logic the next step would be to think what Alastor does, which is help the hotel "for fun". If Alastor really is working for lilith as the leaks said (regardless if she made made him strong or not), it's likely that he is only helping the hotel to keep watch on Charlie while she is away. We have no idea what is lilith's goal yet but getting power and having fun looks enough for Alastor anyway.

The only issue here would be the huge time gap that makes it unconvincing. Alastor died in 1930~ so if Lilith hired him to be her "spy" 90 years later it will sound kinda dumb.

What the fuck? All of them combined only own one million souls? How did anyone ever buy the "overpopulation" bullshit?
I heard it wrong actually, they "own millions of souls" not one million souls.

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The wikia does equate them to powerlevels even tho that is NOT what she said

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This does make alastor rise to power even more extreme as there is no way a serial killer should powercreep overlords who should potentially own more than 100k souls.
 
I recently watched the nine episodes that have been made of this so far. I will say that the show has a lot going for it, with every detail lush, vibrant, and positively oozing with dazzling style. Unfortunately, however, it is very much a style over substance affair. The show's attempts to mix Nickelodeon-type kooky cartoon comedy and Disney-style musical numbers with very dark themes are exceptionally clumsy and jarring. It's especially cringe-inducing in the fourth episode, which includes a musical number about being forced to perform degrading sex acts in porn. As a whole, the show just doesn't really work on most levels, despite the massive amount of admirable creative energy put into it.

Perhaps season two will be better, if it gets made (which I assume it will). There is certainly a massive amount of potential here - potential that the first season didn't even remotely live up to.
 
Just turn off your brain and enjoy the show. Just don't think about it. Just consume media. This is how entertainment is supposed to be now and we must all accept it. Shit on capitalism while also...participating in capitalism....just don't think about it.
Ironically the anti capitalism trend in the media has only made me appreciate capitalism more. However I must admit if their are jabs at capitalism in HH they went over my head.
Imagine having to rely on a rapist/trafficker and a zoomer to aid you in your evil plans to dominate hell with tiktok.
Imagine losing a rap battle to CHADlastor after his 7 year vacation and having your entire network shut down with grandpa's radio.
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Vox dickriders, TVsisters.. I don't feel so good...
Not gonna lie I hope somebody takes Alastor down a peg at some point in the show. It doesn't even have to be Vox.
 
Stella ofc, but also Millie. She dedicates 2 episodes making her bf a pansy and depicting them hating each other, contrary to the perfect couple they were in s1.
Imagine doing something that spiteful and self-defeating. Most showrunners are thrilled to have a breakout characters fans like, i.e. the Fonz, Steve Urkel, etc. etc.
 
Not gonna lie I hope somebody takes Alastor down a peg at some point in the show. It doesn't even have to be Vox.
If I remember correctly, I believe Vox did beat him in a fight before Alastor disappeared for seven years in the comic. So I guess he technically dud take him down a peg? Or not, if the comic is not considered canon anymore. I don't fucking know.
 
Not gonna lie I hope somebody takes Alastor down a peg at some point in the show. It doesn't even have to be Vox.
Well Adam fucking destroyed him that he had to run away

If I remember correctly, I believe Vox did beat him in a fight before Alastor disappeared for seven years in the comic. So I guess he technically dud take him down a peg? Or not, if the comic is not considered canon anymore. I don't fucking know.
Its implied Vox did beat him, but its imlied that Alastor "almost beat" him so I am going to guess Alastor got jumped before he disappeared.
 
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