Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Corn Flakes]

D&D is run best when its a dictatorship, but even dictators have advisors and have to listen to the people.

Bingo. A GM that doesn't listen to his players is just a frustrated writer taking it out on other people, while a GM that doesn't hold any opinions is just a tool for the loudest player to get a power trip out of.

They actually don't even do that since they're also trying to blobify and turn all of the races into the same californiaslop culture, since they all look, dress, and act the same now and everything too usually.

They try to have their cake and eat it too. Every race is a 1-1 port of a real world ethnicity when they're being depicted all by themselves, but when in a city or in any kind of group setting they immediately default to that weird Coastalpunk Fantasy look they developed. Seriously, I don't know how they make elves, dwarves and even orcs look like they're from Portland, SanFran or New York but they do it. All these characters are missing is a Starbucks cup in their hands. Maybe a cell phone glued to their pointy ears.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Sorry for all the questions recently. I have more today.

Today I learned of One Page Rules (formally One Page 40k), a company that got it's start making knock off rules for Warhammer 40k. It's gained more success over time, and is branching out into 3D printed models and even writing original lore. This got me thinking about all the 5e killers (Level Up 5e, DC20, Castles and Crusades, Pathfinder 2, etc) and the OSR. TTRPGs are sort of the reverse of One Page Rules. People love 40k lore but hate the rules, whereas 5e people hate the lore but love the rules. Except they don't love the rules because everybody complains about them but won't try other games.

What does WotC actually sell to people at this point?
Rules? Junk. Lore? Junk. So far the only thing seems to be the quality of the art. But they're ditching those for wokeshit and AI generated art.

And what do you think it'll take to be a DnD killer?
Clearly it's not streamlined rules or tight editing because the OSR has had that locked down for a while. I've been of the opinion that it's quality adventures and an original setting. ie. How Paizo allegedly got started.

How did Paizo start?
I was always told they started by writing the best third party adventures for 3.5, and then made PathFinder around the same time 4e shit the bed. But internet searches seem to go back as far as Rise of the Rune Lords which is the first Pathfinder branded adventure. It also seems quite a professional product for an upstart. The only pre-Pathfinder adventure I can find credited to them is Shackled City, but wikipedia claims that an official DnD product, not Paizo.

 

[Gingervitis]

Sorry for all the questions recently. I have more today.

Today I learned of One Page Rules (formally One Page 40k), a company that got it's start making knock off rules for Warhammer 40k. It's gained more success over time, and is branching out into 3D printed models and even writing original lore. This got me thinking about all the 5e killers (Level Up 5e, DC20, Castles and Crusades, Pathfinder 2, etc) and the OSR. TTRPGs are sort of the reverse of One Page Rules. People love 40k lore but hate the rules, whereas 5e people hate the lore but love the rules. Except they don't love the rules because everybody complains about them but won't try other games.

What does WotC actually sell to people at this point?
Rules? Junk. Lore? Junk. So far the only thing seems to be the quality of the art. But they're ditching those for wokeshit and AI generated art.

And what do you think it'll take to be a DnD killer?
Clearly it's not streamlined rules or tight editing because the OSR has had that locked down for a while. I've been of the opinion that it's quality adventures and an original setting. ie. How Paizo allegedly got started.

How did Paizo start?
I was always told they started by writing the best third party adventures for 3.5, and then made PathFinder around the same time 4e shit the bed. But internet searches seem to go back as far as Rise of the Rune Lords which is the first Pathfinder branded adventure. It also seems quite a professional product for an upstart. The only pre-Pathfinder adventure I can find credited to them is Shackled City, but wikipedia claims that an official DnD product, not Paizo.

I feel like what a lot of these companies lack is a pedigree that sets them apart from the other guys. Paizo didn’t just make adventures- they also ran and wrote for Dragon Magazine for a good chunk of 3rd edition, including the chad-zak article, everyone’s favorite. By the time they made their D&D killer, enough people knew who they are that Paizo were able to sell 3e with blackjack and hookers.

Granted, it might just be harder to stand out with the internet becoming more widespread. I’m not an advertising guy, so don’t quote me

 

[Corn Flakes]

And what do you think it'll take to be a DnD killer?

As with any other situation where a single product or service is the hegemon, it'll take demand for it to be unseated.

It's hard to overstate how much power cultural inertia has. The only way you can remove something like D&D from the top is by offering something that everybody really wants, even if they don't know they want it, but that D&D currently doesn't offer. That's going to be a very tall order because as much as we talk about fluff and rules and the quality thereof... most people who consume D&D products aren't really all that concerned about either of these things. They either play RPGs as a fun social time... or don't even play at all but take part in the "community" because it's now a lifestyle rather than just a brand. And even for the people who care for fluff or rules don't agree on what should be done with the fluff or the rules. Do we want more rules? More realism? More streamlining? More narrative-centric games? Do we want high-fantasy power fantasies? Gritty mud-farming? Or do we want Waterdeep Barista Simulator? There is no large enough group of people that can agree on any element, definitely not enough to provide a decent competition to 5e.

For all its faults, 5e casts a very wide net, and it's very hard to make something that so mildly pleases so many people. Pathfinder 2.0 is doing great... but there are still plenty of people who are never going to touch it because they started out on 5e and don't like Pathfinder's setting, or its rules. Furthermore, what does 5e 100% fail to provide as an RPG?

On the other hand, 5e is an aberration. Its "fanbase" is bloated with far more orbiters and "lifestylers" than even 3.5e at its peak. It's a fandom almost completely separate from RPGs at large. The problem for WotC is that these people are almost universally poor clients with a penchant for turning on their masters at the drop of a hat. So, IMO, the only D&D killer out there is D&D. More specifically, WotC's mismanagement of the brand. Once the crash comes, we'll see just how small the tabletop RPG space truly is.

 

[LovisXVI]

What does WotC actually sell to people at this point?

Easy answer: the biggest "community" of any game, so it is easy to find players or a GM. However it is appropriately put in scare quotes since it is weak, uncentered and unfocused. D&D has garnered this unnaturally large community because it is trying to be all things to all people, which makes the community weak and diffuse. This is in contrast to other communities, which, while smaller, are stronger and produce better players, because there remains a core idea around which the game is focused. For example, Call of Cthulhu is about investigating the supernatural, Shadowrun is about being a criminal mercenary, Traveller is about being an independent spaceship crew. Not to say that there aren't alternatives, hell they can even be supported, Pulp Cthulhu makes it into an action game where you shoot the supernatural, Shadowrun has many supplements for playing as Corporate operatives, pirates, organized criminals, or even an ambulance crew, and Traveller has military campaigns where you are part of the command structure, but these are additions, not put on the same level as the core conceit of the system, which is important.

 

[Drinky Crow]

People love 40k lore but hate the rules, whereas 5e people hate the lore but love the rules. Except they don't love the rules because everybody complains about them but won't try other games.

And these are gamers that should be made to rotate on a balsa wood dick. Them and people who try to make 5E some genre other than sword and sorcery or at least sword and sandal.

 

[LovisXVI]

And these are gamers that should be made to rotate on a balsa wood dick. Them and people who try to make 5E some genre other than sword and sorcery or at least sword and sandal.

An impossible task, my philosophy for game design is that the system must be made to suit the ideas of the setting. D&D was made to suit the American (as in not European stuff like LotR) Pulp fantasy that nerds like Gygax in the 70s and 80s liked. This is the same reason why a good cyberpunk system needs oodles of branded, slightly different, gear, because the suffusion of corporate presence must be present even in the mechanics, and that is why I just disregarded RED from the start, as they opted for generic archetype guns over the 2020's huge tomes of gear approach. By this same token it is why you SHOULDN'T have branded weapons in a game like Traveller, where the focus is more on the technological disparity of the weapons and the sheer scale of the world (unless you want to bring in cyberpunk themes, given that Megacorps exist in the Traveller Empire), so having generic archetypes is more than appropriate, since a tech level 9 vs 11 laser pistol is more important and wide a difference than whatever consortium built the thing back on the planet you bought it on. If they want to play fantasy roleplaying in a different setting, I would suggest plenty of other systems, Burning Wheel is certainly more suited for theater kid antics, easier to understand rules and it even has game design behind it, something that D&D and the greater d20 world seems to have never appreciated.

 

[Drinky Crow]

An impossible task, my philosophy for game design is that the system must be made to suit the ideas of the setting. D&D was made to suit the American (as in not European stuff like LotR) Pulp fantasy that nerds like Gygax in the 70s and 80s liked. This is the same reason why a good cyberpunk system needs oodles of branded, slightly different, gear, because the suffusion of corporate presence must be present even in the mechanics, and that is why I just disregarded RED from the start, as they opted for generic archetype guns over the 2020's huge tomes of gear approach. By this same token it is why you SHOULDN'T have branded weapons in a game like Traveller, where the focus is more on the technological disparity of the weapons and the sheer scale of the world (unless you want to bring in cyberpunk themes, given that Megacorps exist in the Traveller Empire), so having generic archetypes is more than appropriate, since a tech level 9 vs 11 laser pistol is more important and wide a difference than whatever consortium built the thing back on the planet you bought it on. If they want to play fantasy roleplaying in a different setting, I would suggest plenty of other systems, Burning Wheel is certainly more suited for theater kid antics, easier to understand rules and it even has game design behind it, something that D&D and the greater d20 world seems to have never appreciated.

Glad I wasn't the only one who was sad about that aspect of RED. Consumerism and style uberalles is a key component of the genre, hence why the Chromebooks worked so magnificently with it (and the fluff text is laugh out loud sometimes).

 

[LovisXVI]

Glad I wasn't the only one who was sad about that aspect of RED. Consumerism and style uberalles is a key component of the genre, hence why the Chromebooks worked so magnificently with it (and the fluff text is laugh out loud sometimes).

Yeah, it is very important that you must develop opinions over it, thinking that one particular brand or company is better, but faceless, unmarked "light pistol" makes the rampant materialism all the more hollow. Hell one of my favourite quality options in Shadowrun literally gives you a bonus dice when using a particular brand or model of weapon, brings the theme to the extreme.
I also hate when cyberpunk settings try to update the aesthetics, I like the 80's look of SR and 2020, makes it feel more distinct from real life. RED and 2077 both look like ass imo, generic and toothless look, especially with the plastic looking 'ware instead of the aggressive all metal stuff, and only "bad guys" having the mean looking augs. Whatever happened to 'ware being a bad thing no matter who used it, trading your humanity for an edge on the street?

 

[Drinky Crow]

Yeah, it is very important that you must develop opinions over it, thinking that one particular brand or company is better, but faceless, unmarked "light pistol" makes the rampant materialism all the more hollow. Hell one of my favourite quality options in Shadowrun literally gives you a bonus dice when using a particular brand or model of weapon, brings the theme to the extreme.
I also hate when cyberpunk settings try to update the aesthetics, I like the 80's look of SR and 2020, makes it feel more distinct from real life. RED and 2077 both look like ass imo, generic and toothless look, especially with the plastic looking 'ware instead of the aggressive all metal stuff, and only "bad guys" having the mean looking augs. Whatever happened to 'ware being a bad thing no matter who used it, trading your humanity for an edge on the street?

And if you did consider it worth it, going pedal to the medal and living forever in drug/alcohol soaked stories on the street long after you went to Hell. Live fast, die hard.

 

[Judge Dredd]

How is CP RED anyway? I heard the DM guide is quality, and they've been putting out frequent high quality updates, but I've not followed it.

This is the same reason why a good cyberpunk system needs oodles of branded, slightly different, gear, because the suffusion of corporate presence must be present even in the mechanics, and that is why I just disregarded RED from the start,

I don't know why Cyberpunk keeps fucking up it's editions with dumb decisions. Supposedly one of them focused on playing as teenagers.

This is why I don't like Shadowrun. The fantasy stuff upstages the tech. And when it does come to tech the ease of min-maxing bothers me. I'm told to just remove the elements I don't like, but then I end up gutting the entire game and lore.

 

[Drinky Crow]

How is CP RED anyway? I heard the DM guide is quality, and they've been putting out frequent high quality updates, but I've not followed it.


I don't know why Cyberpunk keeps fucking up it's editions with dumb decisions. Supposedly one of them focused on playing as teenagers.

This is why I don't like Shadowrun. The fantasy stuff upstages the tech. And when it does come to tech the ease of min-maxing bothers me. I'm told to just remove the elements I don't like, but then I end up gutting the entire game and lore.

Short assessment; RED is....okay. I expected a hell of a lot better though.

 

[Ghostse]

By the time they made their D&D killer, enough people knew who they are that Paizo were able to sell 3e with blackjack and hookers.

More than just modules, Paizo had been introducing new mechanics/classes into 3.5 for a while so they understood the system.

It wasn't just that - they wouldn't have made their entry into the market as AMD to WoketardCoasties' Intel if they hadn't had impeccable timing and perfect understanding of the market's wants: 4e came out and was a huge shift from 3e, so they were giving all the grogs (effectively) more 3.5, and then putting out the player's handbook for free when Woketards' was sledgehammering their balls trying to nickle-and-diming their customers and treating them like criminals. So even if you liked 4e and were just pissed at Woketards' cashgrasping, you'd probably give Pathfinder a try.


But this same issue is why PF2e has been a failure*. They made something to try meld 4e and 5e together, but 4e had imploded years ago and no one was serious pissed off about 5e yet as the Grey Blob shit wouldn't happen for a while, so there was really no market for 4.75e. Pozzp also hadn't really been putting out 4e or 5e modules like they were 3.5 before PF1e, so they both didn't have the understanding of the system they'd had for 3.x.


*to be fully accurate: has failed to grab a significant market share entry like PF1e did, so chiefly only a failure by comparison. The system has paid for itself as I understand it, but it just doesn't have the market penetration PF1e got, partly because minus true believer paizo koolaid drinkers it hasn't even been able to convert the PF1e player base let alone 5e tards.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Supposedly one of them focused on playing as teenagers.

Meant to address this; that was Cybergeneration. I personally liked it for short term games, but it's one of those games that would have probably been far better divorced from the CP2020 universe entirely. Should have just been it's own thing.

 

[Wallace]

But this same issue is why PF2e has been a failure*. They made something to try meld 4e and 5e together, but 4e had imploded years ago and no one was serious pissed off about 5e yet as the Grey Blob shit hadn't happened yet so there was really no market for 4.75. They also hadn't really been putting out 4e or 5e modules, so they both didn't have the understanding of the system they'd had for 3.x.

The market is extremely over-saturated in general, and the industry does a lousy job of pulling in new people due to the existing people being emotionally unstable spergs and incels. Making money in this industry is next to impossible.

 

[Chug Smuckle]

Roll20 had a data breach (stolen from reddit)
Reddit

 

[The Ugly One]

On the other hand, 5e is an aberration. Its "fanbase" is bloated with far more orbiters and "lifestylers" than even 3.5e at its peak.

3.5 was never that popular, which is why it was canceled after I think 3 years. IIRC, in order of sales, it's something like

1. 5e ( > 1.6m)
2. 1e (1.5m)
3. 2e (750k)
4. 3.0 (600k?)
5. 3.5 (400k?)
6. 4e (good release Q then died quick)

 

[Ghostse]

3.5 was never that popular, which is why it was canceled after I think 3 years. IIRC, in order of sales, it's something like

1. 5e ( > 1.6m)
2. 1e (1.5m)
3. 2e (750k)
4. 3.0 (600k?)
5. 3.5 (400k?)
6. 4e (good release Q then died quick)

3 & 3.5 were from 2000 to 2008. Couldn't believe 3e was 2000 I would have sworn to god I heard people talking about 3.5 games in school in the 90s.

 

[The Ugly One]

3 & 3.5 were from 2000 to 2008. Couldn't believe 3e was 2000 I would have sworn to god I heard people talking about 3.5 games in school in the 90s.

I looked it up
1e: 77-89
2e: 89-00
3.0: 00-03
3.5: 03-08
4e: 08-14
5e: 14-24

Also I saw somewhere that the Basic-Expert boxes pushed north of 1m units.

 

[Rapier Ape]

Has anyone else here looked into Dungeon Synth?
I kinda mess around and browse the genre a bit here and there. Lately I've just been writing scenarios and stuff around the odd little track titles on the albums.
1 - Write down track titles if the album catches my attention pretty quickly.
2 - Sit back and listen to it. Jotting down ideas that come to mind.
3 - Flesh it all out on paper.
It's worked out pretty well so far.

3 & 3.5 were from 2000 to 2008. Couldn't believe 3e was 2000 I would have sworn to god I heard people talking about 3.5 games in school in the 90s.

They could have been delving into the Skills and Powers books from 2e or the optional rules from Fighter's Handbook etc.
I know the skills and powers books added a huge amount of complexity and customization to PCs that kind of blurred the lines a lot when it came to character classes. You could create rougish fighters or pick divine spells with Wizards. Add armored casting to Wizards as a trade off for weaker spells, less spells etc.
If everyone knew what they were doing and using said books it made for some very interesting combinations and depth to the game. It also made it extremely hard to metagame on the players end because it gave the DM a million more tools to use.
Then you had the various books like Encyclopedia Arcana. Metamagics were introduced but they were actual "blank" spells of higher level that you just tied lower level spells to upon casting that then burned both spell slots but added the effect of the meta magic.
On top of that you still had the Becmi line going and the Gazateers. A few of those like The Kingdom of Glantri had optional rules to add to spellcasting that were pretty much the beta version of 3rd edition feats. Mobile Spellcasting, Combat Casting and concentration etc. Plus a very good on paper ruleset for the creation of magic items, weapons and potions.

When you add all of this together and remember that Becmi, 1e and 2e were all cross compatible with very little changes in the conversion then it cold easily get as complex as 3e and probably even more.