Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Susanna]

According to the Ukrainian official “sources,” to wit, Maryanna Bezuglaya, the first F-16 destroyed in Ukraine was “shot down by a Patriot missile due to failure of coordination among the Ukrainian forces.”

According to the Russian “military analysts” of Telegram Zrada-fame it was destroyed in-situ (on the ground) as a result of a Russian missile strike.

According to “military analysts” of the Western shit-kind, it nosedived during a sortie to shoot down Russian missiles; the pilot is dead on impact.

According to regular strategists, the first F-16 eliminated in the Ukraine was an inevitability, much like the Abrams “wunderwaffe’s” demise.

https://t.me/Slavyangrad/107420

The Russian claim is the one I saw a day or two ago so Im kinda leaning that way.

What benefit is there to Ukraine in lying here? If the plane did get blown up by Russia on the ground, that would be one more argument for "NATO needs to allow us to station these on Polish airfields" (with the obvious end goal of "Russia bombed a Polish airfield, we WW3 now").
On the other hand, "we had an oopsie and blew up our own plane" also isn't a very useful statement. It's actually downright humiliating.
It all just seems kind of bizarre to me. Like @John Badman said, Patriot's IFF shouldn't have allowed it to launch against neither Ukrainian-registered aircraft nor NATO-registered ones.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

According to the Ukrainian official “sources,” to wit, Maryanna Bezuglaya, the first F-16 destroyed in Ukraine was “shot down by a Patriot missile due to failure of coordination among the Ukrainian forces.”

According to the Russian “military analysts” of Telegram Zrada-fame it was destroyed in-situ (on the ground) as a result of a Russian missile strike.

According to “military analysts” of the Western shit-kind, it nosedived during a sortie to shoot down Russian missiles; the pilot is dead on impact.

According to regular strategists, the first F-16 eliminated in the Ukraine was an inevitability, much like the Abrams “wunderwaffe’s” demise.

https://t.me/Slavyangrad/107420

The Russian claim is the one I saw a day or two ago so Im kinda leaning that way.

Why is no one considering the possibility that more than one F16 has been destroyed? All of those scenarios can be true.

 

[Legato]

What benefit is there to Ukraine in lying here? If the plane did get blown up by Russia on the ground, that would be one more argument for "NATO needs to allow us to station these on Polish airfields" (with the obvious end goal of "Russia bombed a Polish airfield, we WW3 now").
On the other hand, "we had an oopsie and blew up our own plane" also isn't a very useful statement. It's actually downright humiliating.
It all just seems kind of bizarre to me. Like @John Badman said, Patriot's IFF shouldn't have allowed it to launch against neither Ukrainian-registered aircraft nor NATO-registered ones.

It being shot down is far less embarrassing than it being kinzhaled wayyy behind enemy lines. Ill try to find the original post where they say an advisor from Poland got killed too.

Saw this too, Iskander damn: https://t.me/Slavyangrad/107380 Excuse the watermark

 

[Jump]

. Like @John Badman said, Patriot's IFF shouldn't have allowed it to launch against neither Ukrainian-registered aircraft nor NATO-registered ones.

That is what the salesman claims. But in reality the Patriot system has always been good at shooting down friendly's.

But not that good at shooting down enemies.

And if they they worked even with skilled operators and the latest updades Israel wouldn't be getting rid of them.

And the fact that Russia has always been leading with their EW capabilities isn't helping. Even if the Patriot wasn't a garbage system to start with, its old as fuck. So any sort of hand me down automatic IFF system these have has likely been countered decades ago. I really doubt Isreal would risk Ukraine getting the latest and greatest when it comes to these.

 

[EscapeVorkuta]

One thing I don't understand is how people in the West can point and laugh at the performance of the Russian Army considering The US military tucked tail and ran away from Afghanistan and the IDF got humiliated on October 7th. In times of war, it seems people become ignorant of history. The Germans thought they could obliterate the Soviet Union because of the Soviet Army's performance in Finland. Never underestimate the resolve of the Russian people as they have been through significantly more hardships than decadent Westerners.

 

[Wherethereisawhip]

One thing I don't understand is how people in the West can point and laugh at the performance of the Russian Army considering The US military tucked tail and ran away from Afghanistan and the IDF got humiliated on October 7th. In times of war, it seems people become ignorant of history. The Germans thought they could obliterate the Soviet Union because of the Soviet Army's performance in Finland. Never underestimate the resolve of the Russian people as they have been through significantly more hardships than decadent Westerners.

Because the Media glosses over that and then throws the Russian setbacks in their face, while bots and paid shills are AstroTurfed enough that a vocal and dedicated group is formed to further manufacture consent. That's enough to force the update on the uncaring masses that only care about their social circles and short term living conditions than anything else.

 

[Keystone]

Confirmed by the Deputy Chairman of the Ukraine Rada Defense Committee.

View attachment 6361504

https://x.com/GeromanAT/status/1829230128561566026

View attachment 6361506
View attachment 6361510

https://t.co/YBAXnW8D2Z

One of the consistent themes of this war has been both sides being too drunk to use anti-air without at least a 2:1 blue on blue ratio.

 

[Black Spruce]

One thing I don't understand is how people in the West can point and laugh at the performance of the Russian Army considering The US military tucked tail and ran away from Afghanistan and the IDF got humiliated on October 7th.

The Western perception of what victory means in war is unbelievably retarded. It's all about big bombastic changes of fronts on maps, massive civilian casualties, and complete military domination of the opponent. Likely primed by how WWII went, when that war was a total anomaly. So because Russia has not blitzkrieged Kiev, levelled populated residential buildings, and mounted Zelensky's head on a spike while mass raping Ukrainian women and children, that means to the Westerner that Russia is weak, pathetic, and incapable of victory.

There's a real pattern with these people. If you tell them the US lost most of the wars it's involved itself in, they will disagree in one of two ways. I'll use Vietnam as an example. They will either say the US actually won the war, and the reason being is they point to the huge amount of people (mostly women and children) that the US killed during the war and compare it to the fraction of the amount of US soldiers that the Viet Cong killed. Which is retarded but that's how they think. Or they will say that the US didn't lose because the Viet Cong didn't invade, and conquer America. Which is also retarded.

So to the average Westerner, war is about spilling as much blood as possible and burning as many cities as possible, in as quick a manner as possible, while to everyone who isn't retarded, it's about accomplishing your goal through leveraging your opponent with your military to give you favorable terms in a peace agreement. Which is how the vast majority of wars are settled.

 

[Battlefield2142EU]

Ukrainians heard about the 15 million ruble bounty for shooting down an F-16 and decided to cash in.

Considering how often post-Saddam Iraqi soldiers and police kill US troops for insurgent bounties. I wouldn’t be surprised honestly.

 

[01169]

So because Russia has not blitzkrieged Kiev, levelled populated residential buildings, and mounted Zelensky's head on a spike while mass raping Ukrainian women and children[...}

Doesn't stop them from reporting 2 out 4 of those things.

 

[The giant penis of doom]

Imagine wearing a uniform with a huge skull on your shoulder and not realising that you’re the baddies.

Imagine being such a neurotic kike, deadly afraid of anuddah shoah you vilify a universal symbol of badassery that a fuckton of troops and movements used.

The Russian claim is the one I saw a day or two ago so Im kinda leaning that way.

Me too, just because that's the most humiliating to admit to them, so of course they would deny it.

 

[Charred Dinosaur]

The Western perception of what victory means in war is unbelievably retarded. It's all about big bombastic changes of fronts on maps, massive civilian casualties, and complete military domination of the opponent. Likely primed by how WWII went, when that war was a total anomaly.

You got me thinking how much of this war will just be an anomaly that cannot be recreated in future peer to peer conflicts. If ww2 style maneuver warfare is no longer possible in the age of constant satellite reconnaissance and missiles could the same fate befall long range unmanned bombers like the Geran if electronic warfare gets even better (wire guidance probably will leave us with kamikaze drones no matter what).

And I wonder if the destruction of the Ukrainian navy and the embarrassing losses of a few Russian ships might be used to justify the start of a (inevitably long, painful and drawn out) shift away from conventional surface fleets... Though in all fairness I was a submarine autist years before 2022 so I guess I am hopeless biased on that topic, which is to say nothing about how as smart as it would be U.S navy grifters are never going to risk profits by abandoning their precious $5 quadrillion carriers that take 3 eons to build.

Either way I just hope that the resurgence of the importance of infantry this war has brought on will convince planners to invest into exoskeletons as though they will never be bulletproof wunderwaffe one can only imagine the impact increased endurance and carry weight would have on on trench warfare... Marvel fans commiting mass suicide once they find out that it's not possible to build a real life iron man would be an added bonus.

 

[World Famous Quasi Payer]

Imagine wearing a uniform with a huge skull on your shoulder and not realising that you’re the baddies.

The skull is the universal symbol of death. Everyone or nearly everyone uses it in relation to the military and war in some fashion. Says nothing about who is good or bad.

One thing I don't understand is how people in the West can point and laugh at the performance of the Russian Army considering The US military tucked tail and ran away from Afghanistan

"tucked tail and ran" is simply wrong. The American public got tired of fighting a war in Afghanistan, as it did in Vietnam, the US government after losing support for the war was forced to withdraw. The Taliban's victory has more to do with the US failure to build a viable alternative with the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan than the military capabilities of the Taliban.

and the IDF got humiliated on October 7th.

And now Gaza is in the process of being razed to a giant parking lot.

Russia is fighting a long bloody war of attrition which doesn't lend itself to convincing a hostile third party that you are winning, The average person isn't following this war like you or I am. We can look at the map changes from day to day, week to week, month to month, and see Russia taking land. Going up to some normie and saying or showing Russia took this patch of dirt or this village doesn't work like it does for us. You'd have to show big picture changes. Where the front line was six months ago as compared to today for example.

In times of war, it seems people become ignorant of history. The Germans thought they could obliterate the Soviet Union because of the Soviet Army's performance in Finland. Never underestimate the resolve of the Russian people as they have been through significantly more hardships than decadent Westerners.

And the Germans nearly did obliterate the soviet union. A combination of lend-lease, German over reach on multiple fronts, and German high command's incompetence is what stopped the end of the soviet union. Russians have a really bad habit of getting themselves into wars they are under prepared for and losing a lot of people because of.

 

[Overly Serious]

Imagine being such a neurotic kike, deadly afraid of anuddah shoah you vilify a universal symbol of badassery that a fuckton of troops and movements used.

Fairly sure it's a reference (mostly) to this well-known skit:

On topic, Karlivka and Synkivka now taken by Russia, more of Constantiyvka captured, further advance on Vodyana, further advances both towards Pokrovsk and have captured villages to the North-East and South-East of it, taken a further big chunk out of Seyedova, Making progress to the supply hub of Hyrnik, consolidating control over New York, broad front advance near Nev'ske, entered Syn'kivka in the North, Russians in no rush, just calmly taking more and more each day.

Meanwhile Ukraine made a very small advance in Kharkiv region and pushed a little further in Kursk - seems to be largely fields, tbh. And they're avoiding guarded roads. That's not going to work when the weather turns bad and fields become mud oceans. Russia seems to be largely containing Ukraine in Kursk at this point. I cannot see how Ukranians can sustain their presence in Kursk long term and it seems to have failed in drawing Russia away from advancing in the East. Zelensky clearly thinks denial is merely a river in Egypt.

As to what destroyed the F-16, it seems crazy to me that saying "we accidentally blew up our own" is more palatable than the Russians having bombed one at an air base but perhaps to the Kiev mindset it is for some reason. I could believe either. Looks fairly certain that's $30 million turned into shredded tinfoil regardless, plus loss of life.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

As to what destroyed the F-16, it seems crazy to me that saying "we accidentally blew up our own" is more palatable than the Russians having bombed one at an air base but perhaps to the Kiev mindset it is for some reason. I could believe either. Looks fairly certain that's $30 million turned into shredded tinfoil regardless, plus loss of life.

The interesting thing to me about the F16's is that I'd forgotten all about them. Zelensky and his NAFO fools have spent the past two years demanding these things and claiming they were the missing piece to the puzzle for defeating Russia. They now supposedly have ten of them and they haven't been used for anything except a photo-op.

 

[Overly Serious]

They now supposedly have ten nine of them and they haven't been used for anything except a photo-op.

Fixed that for you.

 

[demicolon]

Imagine wearing a uniform with a huge skull on your shoulder and not realising that you’re the baddies.

Boring.
If I were the president, I'd order all state hospitals to be renamed "Hospital XXX of Doom" and that all medical staff there must wear uniforms with skulls and spikes on them. Public healthcare would be free but you'd have to sign a sell-your-soul contract to use it.

 

[Duke Nukem]

Imagine being such a neurotic kike, deadly afraid of anuddah shoah you vilify a universal symbol of badassery that a fuckton of troops and movements used.

Me too, just because that's the most humiliating to admit to them, so of course they would deny it.

Yeah I find it hilarious that people flip out over stuff like that, what's next is he going to think pirates are evil because they like skulls on their flags?

Pirates are fun!

 

[Useful_Mistake]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-economy-shows-solid-growth-despite-ukraine-war-sanctions-2024-08-28/

https://archive.is/c6npk

 

[Betonhaus]

And I wonder if the destruction of the Ukrainian navy and the embarrassing losses of a few Russian ships might be used to justify the start of a (inevitably long, painful and drawn out) shift away from conventional surface fleets... Though in all fairness I was a submarine autist years before 2022 so I guess I am hopeless biased on that topic, which is to say nothing about how as smart as it would be U.S navy grifters are never going to risk profits by abandoning their precious $5 quadrillion carriers that take 3 eons to build.

Probably the main problem of traditional fleets is that they can be easily tracked by satellites and hit by intercontinental missiles. If you're transporting cargo in relatively safe areas or bullying smaller countries they're fine, but of you have an actual war with a peer power you would need to find a foolproof way to stealth the ships, such as making them submersible.

I can't imagine what would be required to make a submersible aircraft carrier but it would definitely be a terrifying ship. I wonder if Russia is secretly building one? They have the motivation and capacity to do so in secret.