Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way

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I think it was a liability thing. There's no way they were really "crew members." By any common sense definition, they were passengers and everyone views them as such. I'm not big on admiralty law, though, since I don't like fringed flags.
From what I gather, it was simply a way to (try) and dodge liability.

(Ninja'd by @Oxyjen ) But they are correct.

As the Titan was not a proper US-flagged vessel with no official radio callsign, no certificates, no on-board lifesaving gear, etc, it simply couldn't legally carry paying passengers. The Coast Guard could've shut them down on that alone.

The "they're crew! Lol!" was just a typical arrogant engineer's solution to running afoul of the law - play word/definition games.
 
Though Stockton and basically all the sordid details of how he managed to turn himself into a quickly dissipated pink cloud at the bottom of the ocean have provided me with a good deal of entertainment at his expense, I regret knowing that he likely did not live long enough to register his own, crushing stupidity or recognize that he was a murderer. At least the people he took with him were similarly arrogant.
 
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As the Titan was not a proper US-flagged vessel with no official radio callsign, etc, it simply couldn't legally carry paying passengers. The Coast Guard could've shut them down on that alone.
That's why they didn't operate in US waters though, right? BTW you guys are right on the crew thing, it's liability. But they built the subs and the parts out of a US (non profit I believe) company, and all the tours operated out of the Bahamas where the reach of the coast guard is limited.

Plus, what left dock from the US, Bahamas etc was the Polar Prince, which was a (shitty but) legit vessel which was allowed to sail, and the submersible was carried on deck, or towed behind it. They would only launch the sub in international waters.

Of course, they sold tickets on shore, but they were banking on the whole crew thing - which certainly wouldn't have held up.
 
Though Stockton and basically all the sordid details of how he managed to turn himself into a pink cloud at the bottom of the ocean have provided me with a good deal of entertainment at his expense, I regret knowing that he likely did not live long enough to register his own, crushing stupidity or recognize that he was a murderer. At least the people he took with him were similarly arrogant.
Part of me wishes we were in the timeline where due to illness? He missed this dive and is now twisting in the wind before the Coast Guard and civil courts trying to explain how it wasn't his fault.

Who would be be trying to blame?

I'm almost certain he'd try to throw the manufacturers under the bus for it all, suggesting it was shoddy workmanship on their part, even though he signed off on everything they gave him.



For maximum irony, he might even suggest that had he been onboard that fateful day? He would've known just what to do and saved everyone!


Alas, we were denied that, and Stockton Rush went to his liquefaction still convinced he was the smartest guy in the room and never ONCE had even a moment of doubt, because implosion at 5,000 feet happens faster than the human brain can register.
 
Though Stockton and basically all the sordid details of how he managed to turn himself into a pink cloud at the bottom of the ocean have provided me with a good deal of entertainment at his expense, I regret knowing that he likely did not live long enough to register his own, crushing stupidity or recognize that he was a murderer. At least the people he took with him were similarly arrogant.
It is possible Stockton knew in his final moments that was it. IIRC by the time of the final dive, the acoustic warning alarms inside the craft were no longer audible, or big red flashes on the screen, but everyone who went down there said gunshot level cracks and sounds of delamination were common.

I realise the two cones were found somewhat distant so it's likely the glue came apart and ejected the caps outwards while the CF part just exploded, and that it would have been so fast that his pain receptors wouldn't have even registered, but it might give you some comfort to know that the sounds could have increased in frequency and loudness before the actual seal broke, meaning he knew they were all going to die, even if for seconds.

On the other hand, did he care? His business partmer suspected he legit wanted to die in the submersible for his legacy, didn't he?
 
That's why they didn't operate in US waters though, right? BTW you guys are right on the crew thing, it's liability. But they built the subs and the parts out of a US (non profit I believe) company, and all the tours operated out of the Bahamas where the reach of the coast guard is limited.

Plus, what left dock from the US, Bahamas etc was the Polar Prince, which was a (shitty but) legit vessel which was allowed to sail, and the submersible was carried on deck, or towed behind it. They would only launch the sub in international waters.

Of course, they sold tickets on shore, but they were banking on the whole crew thing - which certainly wouldn't have held up.
The Sub was built in the US which made it subject to US Law and Coast Guard regulation. Regardless of where it was operating.
 
The Sub was built in the US which made it subject to US Law and Coast Guard regulation. Regardless of where it was operating.
Is that really true though? Because you can reflag your ship under another countries care. Technically I'd think it's not illegal to transport a mass of titanium and carbon fiber, nor would it be illegal to throw that off board, then pull it back up and sail back ashore?

I'd think the actual legal issues stem from the ticket sales, no? Especially given we now have some of the texts showing him being pushy.

I would have thought the submersible community who hated Stockton would have tried to do something if the US had juristiction.

Like others said, they never even attempted to register it as a legit vessel so if it's not legally classified as such and not launched from US waters, how can they extend their reach there? Its close to the Arctic aswell which nobody is allowed to police really, are they?

I might be wrong, I'm not a sailor, I've just read too much about the case. I suppose you could reference his patents to say yes, that is absolutley a submersible, but you could also argue that's terminology I guess?
 
Like others said, they never even attempted to register it as a legit vessel so if it's not legally classified as such and not launched from US waters, how can they extend their reach there? Its close to the Arctic aswell which nobody is allowed to police really, are they?
The United States government has jurisdiction over U.S. citizens wherever they are, both for the sake of criminal prosecution if they commit crimes, or protecting them against attackers abroad.
 
The United States government has jurisdiction over U.S. citizens wherever they are, both for the sake of criminal prosecution if they commit crimes, or protecting them against attackers abroad.
Isn't that only certain crimes though, like sexual crimes? For example if there's evidence of me selling crack in Venice, there's little that can be done other than extradite me unless I was somehow using US currency or transporting through the US, no? I don't think it universally applies to all crime, does it?
 
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Isn't that only certain crimes though, like sexual crimes?
No, it's for all purposes. It's just not exercised often for other crimes. For instance, another example is they prosecuted Virgil Griffith for going to North Korea to help teach them how to use crypto to hide their money in direct violation of sanctions, and almost certainly knowing this is at least part of how they raise money for their nuclear weapons program.

Usually they don't exercise it because they're okay with the locals prosecuting a crime committed on their own turf.
 
No, it's for all purposes. It's just not exercised often for other crimes. For instance, another example is they prosecuted Virgil Griffith for going to North Korea to help teach them how to use crypto to hide their money in direct violation of sanctions, and almost certainly knowing this is at least part of how they raise money for their nuclear weapons program.
Well, sanctions are their own set of laws to be fair more to do with the moving of goods, services and information out of the host country. That has an element of crime inside the US, or at the very least, US financial systems and regulations. I'll bow to your knowledge though, I'm happy to say I'm wrong. I know they do it for tax too unless you renounce your citizenship so I know it's possible.
 
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I'll bow to your knowledge though, I'm happy to say I'm wrong. I know they do it for tax too unless you renounce your citizenship so I know it's possible.
It's really uncommon to see this kind of jurisdiction actually used, but the State Department has been pretty consistent in stating that it exists. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's right, but customary international law generally recognizes the rights of states to exercise jurisdiction over its own citizens, both to enforce criminal laws against them and to respond to attacks against them, generally by other states (protective jurisdiction), as if they were attacks on the country itself.

This isn't universally agreed upon but is enough so that it's probably customary international law (which is mostly a matter of agreement when it is not explicitly treaty-based).

And since the UCMJ often gets ignored, note that the last person executed under the UCMJ (in 1961) was John A. Bennett, hanged in Leavenworth for the rape and attempted murder of an 11 year old Austrian girl. The jurisdiction is much more obvious in a case like that, since in that case, it was the jurisdiction of one of the armed forces over an active duty servicemember.
 
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This isn't universally agreed upon but is enough so that it's probably customary international law (which is mostly a matter of agreement when it is not explicitly treaty-based).
I wonder if the Arctic also complicates it, should Rush have survived, given its generally agreed nobody will police it because everybody wants a piece.

Thanks though, I didn't realise it was blanket. I thought they had to make new laws that covered certain crimes.

To your knowledge, have they ever done this for ""simple"" wreckless endangerment and/or manslaughter?

I still think you'd have a better chance with fraud and financial crime though via the tickets.
 
Thanks though, I didn't realise it was blanket. I thought they had to make new laws that covered certain crimes.
They do, but that's a different issue than jurisdiction. If they had no jurisdiction, they couldn't pass the laws, or at least, they'd be void. It's still illegal to break laws that would be domestic laws here, but you're never going to see a simple drug possession charge from somewhere it's legal prosecuted unless we bring back Drug War bullshit 101%.

If you participate in a smuggling ring that distributes back here, maybe.

This is the general outline:
(and note the DoJ has been known to overstate its jurisdiction)

A lot of that is statutory, meaning Congress could expand it, just not beyond what the Constitution allows, and Congress could expand it beyond what international law allows, just at the risk of people saying "hey America you're breaking international law" to which we'd laugh at them.
 
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They do, but that's a different issue than jurisdiction. If they had no jurisdiction, they couldn't pass the laws, or at least, they'd be void.
So you meant they can pass laws outside their borders to make convictions more secure, or that in theory, all US law applies to all US citizens at all times? Sorry for being dense.
 
So you meant they can pass laws outside their borders to make convictions more secure, or that in theory, all US law applies to all US citizens at all times? Sorry for being dense.
Skip to the end for the only sentence in this actually relevant to this specific case because this is kind of autistic and tl;dr.

Usually there are enabling statutes like the one in that DoJ link, and usually, the DoJ is not going to go beyond those. They don't want to be prosecuting every single little crime some American commits as a tourist when the locals are entirely capable of taking care of it themselves.

There's jurisdiction as it exists under international law, which America is pretty cavalier about directly obeying, jurisdiction as far as the Constitution allows, which theoretically gives the feds jurisdiction over any foreign crimes, statutory jurisdiction, which is where a statute actually grants the jurisdiction to the federal authorities (which is considerably more narrow than the theoretical limit), and sometimes a final layer of statutory jurisdiction which explicitly grants jurisdiction over a specific subset of crime (like the sex tourism statute allowing the punishment of pedophiles abroad as well as people who violate sanctions and a handful of other things).

Usually, you're going to see all four before the feds prosecute an American's misdeeds abroad.

If this sounds complicated, it's actually such a gross oversimplification as to be wrong if you look at the millions of exceptions. But there are entire treatises just on the subject of jurisdiction and we really don't have time for all that.

In short, though, the U.S. probably had the authority to stop this, or at least revoke Stockton's ability to have any operations in the U.S., and possibly prosecute him, even before the disaster. There are probably international authorities with some jurisdiction over the Arctic that could have rejected this "ha ha they're not passengers even though they're paying they're crew yeah that's the ticket" bullshit and revoked any legal authority.

They really should have. It might not have stopped him from doing it anyway. But even on the high seas, we aren't in the age where nothing but piracy and slavery made you hostis humani generis (an enemy of the human race) who can be attacked and killed by anyone for any reason.

You're generally supposed to be operating under the flag of some country, and subject to its laws, to be lawfully using the oceans.

Also the U.S. has specifically claimed jurisdiction over at least the salvage operation of the Titanic, according to NOAA.

Since 1994, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia has exercised admiralty jurisdiction over the salvage action brought by RMS Titanic, Inc., the U.S. company that has salvor-in-possession rights to the Titanic wreck site.

I'd consider this a commercial use of the wreck site and probably the proper jurisdiction under admiralty would be the Eastern District of Virginia.
 
Also the U.S. has specifically claimed jurisdiction over at least the salvage operation of the Titanic, according to NOAA.
Yeah the salvage rights of the Titanic are quite the tale in themselves. The French crew who first found the wreck say they really regretted not trying to claim them because the site got so distributed in the following years.

I didn't skip to the end though, thanks for the answer.

Its a US company/foundation that actually own the rights I believe now.

Edit RMS Titanic, Inc. based out of Georgia.
 
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You usually only see that final jurisdiction-by-citizenship when the crime in question is a major felony (think murder) and takes place on the high seas, in the air, or on US-flagged boats/ships/planes where the actual geographical point of the crime is unknown, but, its at least known that it DID take place on board that particular vessel/aircraft.

And, as @AnOminous pointed out, pulling down the flag on your ship just means you effectively declared yourself a quasi-pirate at best.

In short, doing something in international waters doesn't mean you can't be punished, it just complicates the paperwork if what you are doing pisses off the US enough.
 
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