Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way

[RodgerDodger]

Is that really true though? Because you can reflag your ship under another countries care. Technically I'd think it's not illegal to transport a mass of titanium and carbon fiber, nor would it be illegal to throw that off board, then pull it back up and sail back ashore?

The law is very specific regarding passenger carrying submersibles constructed in the US. In much the same way the US maintains a certain degree of regulatory authority over every aircraft Boeing has built. (And the EU every Airbus.)

Would the Coast Guard go out and hunt down the operators of a sub like this? No. But when the inevitable occurs they will be subject to us legal problems. Regardless of where they were sailing.

 

[Caesar]

The law is very specific regarding passenger carrying submersibles constructed in the US. In much the same way the US maintains a certain degree of regulatory authority over every aircraft Boeing has built. (And the EU every Airbus.)

Would the Coast Guard go out and hunt down the operators of a sub like this? No. But when the inevitable occurs they will be subject to us legal problems. Regardless of where they were sailing.

Yeah Anon covered it but fair play, looks like I was wrong. I thought like he said, they had to specify it like with the sex tourism laws.

 

[TowinKarz]

Yeah the salvage rights of the Titanic are quite the tale in themselves. The French crew who first found the wreck say they really regretted not trying to claim them because the site got so distributed in the following years.

Sadly, they never envisioned the march of technology would put the wreck in range of what amounted to souvenier hunters.

At the time it was discovered? Only two or three submersibles in the entire world had the range to reach it, and they were all firmly in the hands of militaries, or, government-funded (and thus military adjacent) research institutes that would never be able to offer their services to the general public.

 

[Caesar]

Sadly, they never envisioned the march of technology would put the wreck in range of what amounted to souvenier hunters.

And with the trunk space to store anything! Every ounce counts that deep. Have you guys seen the position you have to sit in most of these things because they're so expensive and cramped? Camerons was like this



And he had to sit in that position for 8 hours!

I know a lot of the salvage was unmanned but even then, it's a pretty tough craft to engineer and it costs an absolute fuck ton.

 

[Iron Jaguar]

If there is one thing you should never ever underestimate it's the autism of scale modelers.

Indeed, Sir Rod Stewart.

 

[Oxyjen]

I know a lot of the salvage was unmanned but even then, it's a pretty tough craft to engineer and it costs an absolute fuck ton.

Speaking of which, have you seen the footage from the ROV they sent down to look, and finally recover bits of the Titan?

That’s some impressive shit. If you *did* feel the need to poke about the grave site that is the Titanic, surely it would be a much better experience to sit in a cinema in the ship above the ROV, watching in 4K? Than in a cramped fart tube with a tiny window and a real time readout of when it might implode.

 

[Caesar]

Speaking of which, have you seen the footage from the ROV they sent down to look, and finally recover bits of the Titan?

That’s some impressive shit. If you *did* feel the need to poke about the grave site that is the Titanic, surely it would be a much better experience to sit in a cinema in the ship above the ROV, watching in 4K? Than in a cramped fart tube with a tiny window and a real time readout of when it might implode.

Yeah the videos very cool. It's all about the experience I suppose though. If you're worth 8 or more figures, I guess you can get desnsitized to things like amazing footage when you can pay the equivalent of a drink or a video game for me and you, with time off work at no risk, to go do whatever you want.

What would put me off more if I was worth $XX mill would be the conditions on the polar Prince. Like yeah the submersible is horrible to sit in, but that's submersibles. The polar Prince was a piece of shit that they had to start using because they couldn't afford to hire their old ship anymore. It was far from a luxury cruise and they'd have you helping out on board etc, they even had guests help with maintainence on the Titan. Insane. You'd have to sail for days each way on the shitty Prince, and then you might be stuck out there waiting for favourable conditions for more days.

In comparison, less than 10h in the submersible seems OK other than the toilet situation and stuff. Stockton would do a lot to "entertain" too, famously he let that one guy drive who almost immediately hit something.

 

[Betonhaus]

Yeah the videos very cool. It's all about the experience I suppose though. If you're worth 8 or more figures, I guess you can get desnsitized to things like amazing footage when you can pay the equivalent of a drink or a video game for me and you, with time off work at no risk, to go do whatever you want.

What would put me off more if I was worth $XX mill would be the conditions on the polar Prince. Like yeah the submersible is horrible to sit in, but that's submersibles. The polar Prince was a piece of shit that they had to start using because they couldn't afford to hire their old ship anymore. It was far from a luxury cruise and they'd have you helping out on board etc, they even had guests help with maintainence on the Titan. Insane. You'd have to sail for days each way on the shitty Prince, and then you might be stuck out there waiting for favourable conditions for more days.

In comparison, less than 10h in the submersible seems OK other than the toilet situation and stuff. Stockton would do a lot to "entertain" too, famously he let that one guy drive who almost immediately hit something.

I'd rather go on the submarine ride in West Edmonton Mall, and it broke down years ago.

 

[MoonState]

Day 6 of the hearing starts in 15 minutes.

 

[teriyakiburns]

Day 6 of the hearing starts in 15 minutes.

Even if Stockton Rush had someone survived, he'd still be smashed to a fine paste at this point in the proceedings.

 

[Caesar]

I'd rather go on the submarine ride in West Edmonton Mall, and it broke down years ago.

There are old Russian subs and stuff that you can take to less deep shipnwrecks as a tourist anyway

 

[W00K #17]

Speaking of which, have you seen the footage from the ROV they sent down to look, and finally recover bits of the Titan?

That’s some impressive shit. If you *did* feel the need to poke about the grave site that is the Titanic, surely it would be a much better experience to sit in a cinema in the ship above the ROV, watching in 4K? Than in a cramped fart tube with a tiny window and a real time readout of when it might implode.

That's a cool looking fish.

 

[Procopius]

have you seen the footage from the ROV they sent down to look

A multi million pound vessel, and it's putting the bits it picks up in plastic milk crate held together with zip ties. Is that jankier than steering with a Logitech controller?

 

[teriyakiburns]

A multi million pound vessel, and it's putting the bits it picks up in plastic milk crate held together with zip ties. Is that jankier than steering with a Logitech controller?

The crate isn't a vital component that dooms people to an ugly death if it fails.

 

[TowinKarz]

The crate isn't a vital component that dooms people to an ugly death if it fails.

Its also the cheapest practical solution to the need for something that wont corrode in salt water, can sustain high pressure load, and will hold items you want to take while letting mud, silt and small bits of sea life slide through.

(as well as water once you break the surface)

 

[Vecr]

Its also the cheapest practical solution to the need for something that wont corrode in salt water, can sustain high pressure load, and will hold items you want to take while letting mud, silt and small bits of sea slide through.

It can sometimes even be okay on some of the other manned submersibles, obviously it would still be a really expensive accident, but if the sample holding containers or collection arms get caught up in something, the pressure sphere can eject and quickly float to the surface.

 

[Oxyjen]

Hahaha Karl Stanley was off the hook! I’d forgotten about him but he gave some colorful interviews just post incident.

He waffled a lot, and the focus was mostly on emails he’d sent Stockton telling him cyclops was a death trap.
But at the end, gave his opinion (as many here have done,) that Rush had a death-wish because he knew he was facing failure and humiliation, and basically attended every dive and ignored every red flag in the expectation that it would sooner or later cavitate him into the history books.

IMO he isn’t wrong.

 

[kurosawa]

Holy shit I love the last witness. This guy was fucking great. I've never seen someone who has technical knowledge but then delved into Bohemian club membership & fame as a reason in a regulatory hearing.

Spoiler: Long technical discussion on some details.

The adhesive SCC recommended was an aerospace structural adhesive - Loctite EA9394. Which is fine if you're bonding metals/composites for aerospace but not necessarily compressive applications.

There's lots of other issues with the SCC report. The FEA only shows stresses in the 2D planes (even though it references 3D), the report inappropriately references BPVC rather than PVHO and it shows the first deathtrap was likely constructed with the carbon fiber material in the Appendix A. According to that COC the fiber was manufactured in 2010. Even if that was the material used only for testing the test results are worthless. Even for the scale models.

The fiber is an important point - its not just that its not viable for aerospace as Stockton bragged about, its that the manufacturer no longer guarantees it meets the material capabilities.

I asked the question about humidity when I saw the video of the adhesive process. Sure enough the TDS for the EA9394 adhesive warns about this. I also didn't notice this before but their mixing process was extremely suspect - handmixing with a spatula isn't the way to do this. Both of those issues are not unique to this adhesive, so even if it was a different one there would still be defects. If you look at aerospace adhesives/sealants - there are premixed or static mixers precisely for this reason. PMF (pre-mix frozen as in -40°F to stop the reaction) was designed specifically to prevent human error in your process. And of course to shift liability from aerospace OEMs like Boeing/Airbus to the adhesive/sealant manufacturers.

All that said - I tend to be in agreement as to the failure mode as the YTers who are covering this.

Its simple - the carbon fiber tube compresses and deflects more under compressive pressure than the titanium hatch face and door. This puts stress on the adhesive joint. Cycle this a couple dozen times, add in improper storage and the operating temperature extremes. Either part of the carbon fiber matrix in that section started to delaminate or part of the adhesive joint failed leading to complete failure. After listening to Karl Stanley's testimony today - he isolated the sound to the carbon fiber near the hatch face when he went on the test dive in the Bahamas. It was on the first hull but it seems to fit with the evidence thus far.

Edit - grammar & I messed up the original name of the adhesive.

 

[MoonState]

Day 7 of the hearing (just started)

 

[ATI Escapee]

Im still catching up on the hearings but I am really interested in all the testimonies and am listening when I can.

This might be a stupid question, but to me, the vast majority of 'guilt' lays with Rush. I understand this is not a criminal trial and do not expect results like one, but at the end of this investigation- is the goal to press charges for anyone who reasonably holds some of the guilt by knowingly supporting this asinine project? Is Oceangate LLC potentially going to be sued, or the estate of Rush in order to compensate the families of the deceased? Or is this investigation mostly to see what legal safety loopholes could be closed in the future? Or just to make a report and everyone moves on?