Culture In Defense of Free Market Radicalism - "Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself"

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In Defense of Free Market Radicalism​


01/31/2025•Mises WirePatrick Carroll

Most people’s first exposure to economics occurs in their 7th grade social studies class, or at least somewhere in that vicinity, then high school seniors often take it in high school. To introduce students to the topic, the teacher explains that there are three main approaches a country can take: socialism, capitalism, or an in-between system that gets labeled a “mixed economy.”

The teacher then goes on to explain the merits and demerits of each system. Since the teacher is usually biased, one of the alternatives is inevitably painted as the most favorable one. In my own experience of this lesson—and I suspect many can relate—the “mixed economy” was held up as the least-bad option. The extremes were viewed with suspicion; the middle incorporated the best of both worlds, avoiding the excesses of pure capitalism or socialism.

Looking at the political landscape today, it’s clear that this “middle ground” position is, by far, the most popular. It’s simply common knowledge that both capitalism and socialism cause serious problems when taken to the extreme—knowledge that, in many cases, was graciously handed down to us by our grade 7 social studies teachers. But this seemingly common-sense approach gets the issue wrong in a number of important ways.

The Myth of the “Mixed Economy”


The first issue with the middle ground position is that there’s really no such thing as a “mixed” economy. As Ludwig von Mises explains in his magnum opus Human Action, a market economy and a socialist economy are mutually exclusive in a very technical sense, so mixing them, even in theory, is impossible:

The market economy or capitalism, as it is usually called, and the socialist economy preclude one another. There is no mixture of the two systems possible or thinkable; there is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would be in part capitalistic and in part socialist. Production is directed either by the market or by the decrees of a production tsar or a committee of production tsars.

What gets euphemistically called a “mixed economy,” Mises explains later in the book, is more accurately called a system of interventionism. It is still a degree of market economy, but instead of a free market, it’s a hampered market.

This has implications far beyond changing our terminology. Once we see that there is no mixing capitalism and socialism, the very concept of a spectrum between them is vitiated, and thus, so is the concept of a middle ground. As Mises writes in another place, “Interventionism is not a golden mean between capitalism and socialism. It is the design of a third system of society’s economic organization and must be appreciated as such.”

Rather than thinking of capitalism, socialism, and interventionism as being in a line, think of them arranged in a triangle. There are simply three independent systems to choose from, and none of them is “in between” any of the others.

Aside from being more economically accurate, this new configuration also helps us avoid the temptation of the middle ground fallacy, also known as the argument to moderation. The middle ground fallacy is the assumption that the best position must be the compromise between two extremes—sometimes it is, of course, but often it’s not. It’s quite likely that this fallacy has played a role in the current popularity of the “middle ground” interventionist position. Mises hints at this with his “golden mean” comment. It’s tempting to assume that the middle is best.

“But,” object the interventionists, “our position hardly stems from blind adherence to the middle for its own sake. We have genuine concerns about unfettered capitalism that we believe interventionism can mitigate.”

An Aversion to Freedom


One common concern is that—in an unhampered market—people would buy things that are bad for them. If the government didn’t regulate food, drugs, cars, houses, and so on, consumers might opt for more dangerous options because they are cheaper, leading to more deaths and injuries.

Others might be concerned about inequality. If the government doesn’t provide basic services like education, roads, libraries, and public parks, they fear that society would quickly be split into the haves and the have-nots.

Still others are concerned that specific industries would come under pressure. If the government lifts all protections, such as tariffs, wouldn’t that spell disaster for some businesses?

The common theme in these and countless other objections is an aversion to the consequences of freedom. People cite these issues as evidence that the free market “doesn’t work,” but what they really mean is that it would produce outcomes that they personally find distasteful. At their core, these arguments boil down to saying: “The problem with freedom is that people would get to do what they prefer to do, instead of what I would have them do.” To which I would respond: yes, that’s precisely what freedom is all about.

It’s completely understandable to be concerned about what people would do if the government didn’t intervene in the economy. It’s quite possible that society would look very different, that some would lose their jobs, and that the rich and poor would become more stratified.

But it’s important to understand that just because the free market would produce outcomes we don’t always like, that doesn’t mean there’s something fundamentally wrong with it. It’s quite presumptuous to say that a system is objectively broken simply because it doesn’t always give us what we personally want or we don’t know how certain things would work.

Milton Friedman summed up this theme well when he said, “A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it...gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.”

A Capitalist Dystopia?


The other major category of objection to the free market is perhaps best described as “it would usher in the apocalypse.” Two of the more common dystopian predictions are that free markets would lead to environmental disaster and that monopolies would take over and charge a fortune for everything. However, these predictions are entirely unfounded.

Regarding the environment, it’s important to remember that the free market is based on private property rights, and polluting someone else’s property is clearly an invasion of those rights. As such, a true free market would hardly allow the kind of unchecked pollution that is often feared. Now, it’s true, a property owner could mine or otherwise destroy their property as much as they wanted so long as there was no impact on the surrounding land, air, or water. But that just comes back to the above point about freedom—the objection is essentially, “He should be forced to use his land according to my [or government’s] preferences, not his own.”

As for monopolies taking over, this fear is based on the assumption that firms always benefit from merging and expanding. But this has been shown to be economically incorrect, specifically by Ronald Coase and Murray Rothbard. The economic theory accords with our real-world experience. Ask yourself this: if the market has a constant tendency toward concentration, why isn’t every single industry as concentrated as antitrust laws will allow?

The Problem with Interventionism


As the above discussion hopefully demonstrates, the supposed issues with pure capitalism are not really issues at all. True, a considerable degree of pluralism needs to be tolerated, but aside from that there’s nothing inherent in the system that prevents it from working extremely well.

There are, however, inherent issues with interventionism (and, of course, with socialism, but that goes without saying). As Henry Hazlitt shows in Economics in One Lesson, pretty much every conceivable intervention creates more problems than it solves. The reason these interventions remain popular despite this is that we focus on the immediate and visible consequences, which tend to be positive, while ignoring the long-run and invisible consequences, which tend to be negative. Rothbard’s analysis in Power and Market likewise demonstrates many serious problems inherent in the interventionist approach—how it harms personal utility, creates cartels, and wastes resources. Thus, far from fixing a broken system, interventionism actually breaks a working system.

So what would a better grade 7 social studies model look like? As discussed earlier, there are three possible systems: a free market, a hampered market, and socialism. While there is no spectrum between capitalism and socialism, there is a spectrum within interventionism, from a very high degree of intervention to almost none—and, in a sense, the pure free market is just the non-interventionist extreme on this spectrum.

The only real downside of the free market is that people are allowed to do things we don’t like. The downsides of interventionism—and these become more prominent as we move toward higher degrees of intervention—are that economic well-being is compromised and liberty is violated. Given these realities, the only reasonable position for those who cherish freedom and prosperity is the radical one: a pure market economy.
 
As long as you label the candy properly and make sure that the children in question have understood what they are buying, I don't see a way to argue against this without arguing that children have no rights
Children can't understand this you retard.
You also posted a thread about "fake" protests in Germany. I know nothing about that and inky skimmed the skitsobabble, but you seem unstable. Does your therapist know about your threads?
 
Fuck free trade. It necessarily, and definitionally means comeplete freedom of movement of labor. So that process where over half the middle of the countries best and brightest have to leave to go to the coasts to make the most money in the US. Free trade on a global scale means that smart need from Ohio moves to Taiwan since that's the best place to make chips. It's a complete nation destroying ideology. Fuck it harder than a $2 hooker.
 
Children can't understand this you retard.
Insofar as children can't understand this, then you can't do business with them.
That's the obvious answer.
Yes they will, either through monopolies or cartels, strong players will become stronger unless there is an ultimate authority to push them down.
A monopoly is literally a government-granted privilege.
There has not been a single successful cartel without government backing either.
The argument is so extremely fallacious
It necessarily, and definitionally means comeplete freedom of movement of labor
It means precisely the opposite.
People can move by themselves, wares cannot.
cf. Hans-Hermann Hoppe, “The Cases for Free Trade and Restricted Immigration”:
The phenomena of trade and immigration are different in a fundamental respect, and the meaning of “free” and “restricted” in conjunction with both terms is categorically different. People can move and migrate; goods and services, of themselves, cannot.​
Put differently, while someone can migrate from one place to another without anyone else wanting him to do so, goods and services cannot be shipped from place to place unless both sender and receiver agree. Trivial as this distinction may appear, it has momentous consequences. For free in conjunction with trade then means trade by invitation of private households and firms only; and restricted trade does not mean protection of households and firms from uninvited goods or services, but invasion and abrogation of the right of private households and firms to extend or deny invitations to their own property. In contrast, free in conjunction with immigration does not mean immigration by invitation of individual households and firms, but unwanted invasion or forced integration; and restricted immigration actually means, or at least can mean, the protection of private households and firms from unwanted invasion and forced integration. Hence, in advocating free trade and restricted immigration, one follows the same principle: requiring an invitation for people as for goods and services.​
However, with respect to the movement of people, the same government will have to do more in order to fulfill its protective function than merely permit events to take their own course, because people, unlike products, possess a will and can migrate. Accordingly, population movements, unlike product shipments, are not per se mutually beneficial events because they are not always — necessarily and invariably — the result of an agreement between a specific receiver and sender.​
 
Insofar as children can't understand this, then you can't do business with them.
That's the obvious answer.
So you cannot regulate what goes into the chocolate, because that's le bad. But you can forbid kids buying candy in general. Okay, that's some insane troll logic.

Regulations exist to keep get goods and services reliable, yes can be captured and abused, but that is why we have standards in general. If you buy a food item, you shouldn't worry about dying from it nor you should worry about a fuse not working in the range of that it says on the box etc.

A society running on buyer beware is inefficient and doesn't scale well.
 
A monopoly is literally a government-granted privilege.
There has not been a single successful cartel without government backing either.
The argument is so extremely fallacious
Absolutely bullshit. Both have a definition that is entirely based on market statistics and can easily be achieved by either IP advantage or extremely high cost of entry. Afterwards it can be easily kept through corporate violence.
 
Absolutely bullshit. Both have a definition that is entirely based on market statistics and can easily be achieved by either IP advantage or extremely high cost of entry. Afterwards it can be easily kept through corporate violence.
Any such statistics-based definition is retarded and arbitrary.
A monopoly is a government-granted privilege so that only producer A is legally allowed to produce or sell good X.
A cartel is a system that, relatively speaking, benefits the least efficient member of the cartel the most while punishing the most efficient member. Thus, the strongest member of a cartel has an extremely strong incentive to break away from the cartel because it can just outcompete. That is why every single attempted cartel, without the government being involved, has historically failed. There is not one single instance in human history of a cartel that simultaneously was bad for the consumer and lasted without government interference.
 
A corporation is literally a government fiction. Without government intervention, corporations would not exist.
I was just reading up on the problem of special composition, and I found this delightful quote:
If all the plates in my kitchen dresser were to cease to exist, but all the molecules in my dresser were to stay arranged exactly as they are, I wouldn’t care very much. My guests would have no new reason to worry about their food getting all over the tablecloth. In fact, they would never know unless I told them—but come to think of it, I would never know either.
I think it applies here as well. You can rationalize all you'd like about how "corporations" exist by government fiat and would therefore cease to be without the state propping up their legal existences, but this is masturbatory philosophizing that ignores how, functionally, it seems there would nonetheless still be big corporation-ish arrangements of people going around fucking everyone over and whether these are "corporations" in some legal or ontological sense is irrelevant to the ground-level facts of the boot in my face. Maybe without government the boot gains or loses a few spikes, or the person kicking me justifies it differently, but I see no reason to assume it won't still be there, kicking my shit in.
 
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Any such statistics-based definition is retarded and arbitrary.
A monopoly is a government-granted privilege so that only producer A is legally allowed to produce or sell good X.
A cartel is a system that, relatively speaking, benefits the least efficient member of the cartel the most while punishing the most efficient member. Thus, the strongest member of a cartel has an extremely strong incentive to break away from the cartel because it can just outcompete. That is why every single attempted cartel, without the government being involved, has historically failed. There is not one single instance in human history of a cartel that simultaneously was bad for the consumer and lasted without government interference.
So a company can have 99% of sales and yet it doesn't count as monopoly? That's just insane. Monopolies don't need government stamp tor ruin competition, it's enough they sell at a loss long enough to bankrupt the competition and then just raise the prices back up to higher than beforehand (the Walmart in a small town method).

Cartel is a collection of companies that sets prices and policies between them to keep their consumer share stable. This is mainly anti consumer issue but is just as dangerous for new players that threaten the cartels.
 
I think it applies here as well. You can rationalize all you'd like about how "corporations" exist by government fiat and would therefore cease to be without the state propping up their legal existences, but this is masturbatory philosophizing that ignores how, functionally, it seems there would nonetheless still be big corporation-ish arrangements of people going around fucking everyone over and whether these are "corporations" in some legal or ontological sense is irrelevant to the ground-level facts of the boot in my face. Maybe without government the boot gains or loses a few spikes, or the person kicking me justifies it differently, but I see no reason to assume it won't still be there, kicking my shit in.
The issue is "How?"
I can hypothesize a situation in which chocolate chip cookies rain from clouds on Thursdays, but how would this hypothetical situation happen in reality?
This is the #1 issue with the retorts that I am seeing. You are hypothesizing some apocalypse without any good reasoning, whereas we have good reasoning for why those doomsday scenarios are fucking retarded. But you don't want to hear the reasoning. Or at least the majority of you doesn't want to, considering the reactions I get.
So a company can have 99% of sales and yet it doesn't count as monopoly?
Yes.
That's just insane.
The moment you are the first producer of a thing, you have 100% of sales and 100% of production.
Is that somehow a bad situation for consumers? Is that somehow something that requires armed men step in and fix it?
According to your logic, Scarlet Johansson is a monopolist because she has 100% of sales for Scarlet Johansson movie appearances. And Picasso was a monopolist because he had 100% of Picasso painting sales.
's enough they sell at a loss long enough to bankrupt the competition and then just raise the prices back up to higher than beforehand
Name one case where this has ever worked in history.
This is such a common hypothetical, yet
a) this is fucking amazing for consumers
b) it never works out
 
The issue is "How?"
I can hypothesize a situation in which chocolate chip cookies rain from clouds on Thursdays, but how would this hypothetical situation happen in reality?
This is the #1 issue with the retorts that I am seeing. You are hypothesizing some apocalypse without any good reasoning, whereas we have good reasoning for why those doomsday scenarios are fucking retarded. But you don't want to hear the reasoning. Or at least the majority of you doesn't want to, considering the reactions I get.
Are you using an AI, or just responding as quickly as possible to keep the lolmilk flowing? This is such a non sequitur to the view I implied (that in the long run FULL LIBERTARIANISM wouldn't be a new nightmare, but would just redevelop lopsided power structures functionally similar to what we now have), which is not apocalyptic by any stretch.
 
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The moment you are the first producer of a thing, you have 100% of sales and 100% of production.
Is that somehow a bad situation for consumers? Is that somehow something that requires armed men step in and fix it?
According to your logic, Scarlet Johansson is a monopolist because she has 100% of sales for Scarlet Johansson movie appearances. And Picasso was a monopolist because he had 100% of Picasso painting sales.
That's just bad faith, a monopoly regards a type of good that is near essential. Something like a life saving drug can be monopolized by a single company and then you have cases of people needing to pay thousands of dollars per dose.

Name one case where this has ever worked in history.
This is such a common hypothetical, yet
a) this is fucking amazing for consumers
b) it never works out
I literally did, Walmart fucking over small towns.
 
That's just bad faith, a monopoly regards a type of good that is near essential. Something like a life saving drug can be monopolized by a single company and then you have cases of people needing to pay thousands of dollars per dose.
That is such a nonsensical definition. People go around claiming that Youtube is a monopolist. Is watching videos in a browser near essential?
Your concept of "essential" goods is arbitrarily tied in your strange definition of a monopoly. It dodges the question Why does only one firm control the supply?

I literally did, Walmart fucking over small towns.
Okay, I need to elaborate more on why it makes no sense.
Sustaining losses long enough to drive competitors bankrupt is extremely difficult. These companies are incurring unsustainable losses. If the market is free, then there is nothing stopping new entrants from coming once prices are jacked higher. You could literally buy the discontinued companies for pennies on the dollar and wait for prices to rise again. And this is historically what happened whenever an economic illiterate tried that strategy.
What you call "Walmart fucking over small downs" often benefits consumers by providing lower prices and increased efficiency. Even including Walmart, there is no concrete cases that demonstrates the "predatory pricing" hypothesis working out as you describe
 
That is such a nonsensical definition. People go around claiming that Youtube is a monopolist. Is watching videos in a browser near essential?
Your concept of "essential" goods is arbitrarily tied in your strange definition of a monopoly. It dodges the question Why does only one firm control the supply?
Yes youtube, due to its size and reach, is a monopoly. When it has a political bias there's a massive influence that can change political events. You need to be the retard going BUT YOUTUBE IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS AND IT CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS to argue otherwise.
Okay, I need to elaborate more on why it makes no sense.
Sustaining losses long enough to drive competitors bankrupt is extremely difficult. These companies are incurring unsustainable losses. If the market is free, then there is nothing stopping new entrants from coming once prices are jacked higher. You could literally buy the discontinued companies for pennies on the dollar and wait for prices to rise again. And this is historically what happened whenever an economic illiterate tried that strategy.
What you call "Walmart fucking over small downs" often benefits consumers by providing lower prices and increased efficiency. Even including Walmart, there is no concrete cases that demonstrates the "predatory pricing" hypothesis working out as you describe
You are just arguing history. A single branch of Walmart can drive prices down without changing anything on the bottom line of the chain and it only needs to do it a few months to kill the competition, and considering the other advantages of a monopoly in bargaining power and supply chain it already has a lower price point than most stores. Go make a thread in Deep Thoughts that Walmart killing every small mom and pops store was totally the market working as intended and didn't have horrifying influence for decades on America, let's see how people react to it.
 
Yes youtube, due to its size and reach, is a monopoly. When it has a political bias there's a massive influence that can change political events. You need to be the retard going BUT YOUTUBE IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS AND IT CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS to argue otherwise.
Youtube only has a monopoly on youtube branding as far as I can tell. It has no monopoly on video uploading and sharing.
If youtube were a monopoly, Odysee, Rumble, Dailymotion, Google Videos, Streamable, etc.pp. would not exist.
You are confusing market success with government-granted monopoly power. Youtube's dominant position is a result of network effects and consumer preference, (at least as far as I am aware) not state interference. In spite of youtube's enshittification, users still choose to use the platform voluntarily.
You are just arguing history. A single branch of Walmart can drive prices down without changing anything on the bottom line of the chain and it only needs to do it a few months to kill the competition, and considering the other advantages of a monopoly in bargaining power and supply chain it already has a lower price point than most stores. Go make a thread in Deep Thoughts that Walmart killing every small mom and pops store was totally the market working as intended and didn't have horrifying influence for decades on America, let's see how people react to it.
If Walmart succeeds through efficiency and better management, that's market competition at work. Walmart has failed to succeed in Europe where mom and pops stores were more efficient and competitive. The market (read: people in society acting out of their own free will) rewards firms that deliver value, and if small businesses are driven out, it's not evidence of a conspiracy, but rather the outcome of voluntary exchange.
The consumers made their choice and the blame lies with them, at least as far as I can tell in both situations you mentioned.
 
You can rationalize all you'd like about how "corporations" exist by government fiat and would therefore cease to be without the state propping up their legal existences, but this is masturbatory philosophizing that ignores how, functionally, it seems there would nonetheless still be big corporation-ish arrangements of people going around fucking everyone over and whether these are "corporations" in some legal or ontological sense is irrelevant to the ground-level facts of the boot in my face. Maybe without government the boot gains or loses a few spikes, or the person kicking me justifies it differently, but I see no reason to assume it won't still be there, kicking my shit in.
Yup.

Pre-corporations? We had this thing called "The Crown"

Without corporations as middle-men? It's ALL government.... and I don't know how a sane person can say that sounds like a good idea today.
 
People go around claiming that Youtube is a monopolist. Is watching videos in a browser near essential?
There's already a solution to distributing video efficiently. Google controls the world's most popular WWW browser, Chrome, and specifically keeps BitTorrent functionality out of it in order to maintain control. Google, Apple Computer, and MicroSoft are slowly turning the screws on what software people can install on what are supposedly their own computers, which further cements this.
Walmart has failed to succeed in Europe where mom and pops stores were more efficient and competitive.
France passed laws about what the maximum discount on books can be, to prevent Amazon from destroying all of their small bookstores.

There's no reason to believe Libertarian Land won't just be overrun by CCP PLA chinks immediately.
 
If youtube were a monopoly, Odysee, Rumble, Dailymotion, Google Videos, Streamable, etc.pp. would not exist.
Having alternatives doesn't invalidate the existence of a monopoly. In the end no matter how bad Youtube is being, its server capacity and financial base make it so that no matter how bad it is, there are no alternatives, which is the classic issue with monopolies.

If Walmart succeeds through efficiency and better management, that's market competition at work. Walmart has failed to succeed in Europe where mom and pops stores were more efficient and competitive. The market (read: people in society acting out of their own free will) rewards firms that deliver value, and if small businesses are driven out, it's not evidence of a conspiracy, but rather the outcome of voluntary exchange.
The consumers made their choice and the blame lies with them, at least as far as I can tell in both situations you mentioned.
"If I play Chess against you and started buying more pieces mid game from the guy in the next table it means I'm the better player". It's absolutely insane to argue that massive financial disparity makes for a healthy and balanced market.

Let's change a subject, what do you think of American firms moving production to countries with no human rights laws? Is that legitimate in your eyes?
 
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