- Joined
- Sep 15, 2021
NIxOS drama. devenv, a popular developer tool, have added telemetry by default without informing users. Not just that, but the telemetry slurps up the netire contents of the repo you're running it in, and sends it to their servers. They respect a DO_NOT_TRACK flag, by adding it to the query param of the request. The repo contents get slurped up anyway. Mastodon thread: https://chaos.social/@hexa/114009069746212598
NixOS maintainers have added this flag to be the default without telling the devenv team: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/381817
Then, the devenv team have reverted this change: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/381981
View attachment 6988636
Adding further to this, a contributor called "Jon Ringer" has published a tell all livestream on his own experiences of the Nix project and getting forced out for not being a tranny in essence, he's been a contributor for 5 YEARS before being forced out, they do it for free!. Description and time codes below:
I wanted to set the record straight after people are continuing the narrative that myself and others are "Nazi's" that were purged from the NixOS community. Even though many of these events occurred months ago. Now that others seem to be getting caught in the cross-fire, I think it's time to look at the events from a more level temperament and correct the narrative. In this video, I go over my experience as a contributor of 5+ years in the NixOS community up until my eventual ban and the governance events that transpired.
0:00:00 Intro
0:02:42 Early Nix governance, eelco and grahamc
0:06:00 Why I came to Nix
0:09:28 Nov 2022, Call for Sandro to be suspended, denied RM role
0:18:18 RFC 98: "Model and enforce social norms" 0:27:38 Remove nuclear package, maintainer is a transphobe
0:29:29 May 2022 to Nov 2023 I take a hiatus from Nix, burned out by political drama
0:31:40 DetSys and Flakehub drama
0:37:50 NixCon EU and Anduril Sponsorship drama
0:43:44 NixCon EU Gender survey and srid
0:55:22 joepie91 tells me to fuck off, moderation was going to give me a warning
1:03:05 State my displeasure about allowance of verbal abuse, and conditions in which srid was banned
1:10:43 Domen leaves the NixOS foundation
1:14:03 NixCon NA Anduril sponsorship drama
1:24:28 NixCon Na sponsorship fallout
1:31:45 Save-nix-together letter, asking Eelco to resign
1:43:31 My suspension from NixOS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp0FI8Gw1iA&list=LL&index=3&t=7281s
2:01:21 Eelco resigns from foundation board
2:05:14 Constitional Assembly forms to take over governance prcoess
2:13:50 My ban from NixOS
2:21:35 Post ban, "need to do a purge", "Nazi bar"
2:23:19 Where does this leave the Nix Community today?
He lists some rambling thoughts on his hithub after the fact: https://gist.github.com/jonringer/31e150871945197afe9435bcde456a05 / https://archive.ph/4nloS
This is mostly right on a surface level.
- https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/98 left some initial scars in the community, many of the players are still involved with the current events.
> and want us all to care that people behaved in a perfectly predictable manner and nothing actually bad happened to you.
I didn't fully expect that level of personal attacks. And this line of logic is similar to victim blaming.
In a lot of ways, my behavior was a continuation of how I felt 3 years ago.
> I started using Nix because I thought it was an interesting and exciting technology; and the ability to leverage Nix will just increase over time as the NixOS ecosystem grows and matures.
> This is still why I continue to be a part of the community: the technology and expertise.
> Hacking and using nixpkgs is still exciting to me; even after years of use. I still learn new things, and nixpkgs is essentially an enormous body of expert knowledge.
> What’s not fun are discussions like RFC 98 101, in which it seems that an agenda is trying to be institutionalized with language like “Model and enforce social norms”. This is concerning to me as that the “Community Team” will be law-maker, judge, jury, and executioner within the community. The language of the RFC is already vague enough to allow any interpretation of what is acceptable behavior. I would comment on RFC itself, but it’s been locked.
Anyway there was really a few struggles going on:
- Foundation not able integrate feedback from community
- Foundation was initially intended to be "just a bank account" for donations and expenses
- However, since many of the members were "pillars of the community", it became a backstop for concerns and disputes
- "Board observers" were added to have a "line of communication" between board and "community"
- Community "governance" not really existing (shared between moderation team and foundation)
- Foundation was created in 2015, and mostly focused on "strategic goals"
- Moderation team was created in 2020 to have a sustainable way of moderating community behavior
- A policy of "reach out to moderation team" for concerns made them into a "point of contact" for all concerns
- Eventually moderation team became the "voice of the community" (at least the displeased portion)
- Eventually this became a battle of "who is going to over-rule who"
- No real "governance" body to do policy pertaining to the community at large.
- Toxic community behavior
- The "de-escalate poor behavior in private" practice giving the appearance of toxic behavior being acceptable/condoned.
- Moderation action seeming to be "heavier" for people who are not of a particular political orientation
The last three were the ones I was "fighting". But my employment put me in conflict with the first two.
I would have liked the first two resolved, which is why I started this thread about MIC sponsorships. It's a discussion that should have occurred after the first EU NixCon controversy, and a line should have been drawn in the sand. Not changing the status quo just allowed for the interim "Apache Software Foundation" policies to not give a compelling reason to decline MIC sponsorships.
He has a github page where he details his struggle sessions with Nix since 2019! He used to be a release manager for NixOS 20.09, 21.05, 21.11, and previously 24.05.
Detailed Timeline of my participation with Nix
Pre-ban events
22 May 2024: Hexa attempts to remove r/NixOS reddit as unofficial NixOS space
Hexa: "it is currently a major contributor to social issues in the community"
piegames: "Just open the subreddit and have a look at it. People banned over here causing discord and spewing hatred."
28 May 2024: RFC Steering Committee makes warning that RFC 175 is inactive, and likely be put into draft until more shepherds arrive
30 May 2024: RaitoBezarius suggests switching default nixpkgs package manager to Lix
Eelco: "No, this is NixOS, not LixOS. You are free to create your own distro, of course."
(personal aside): Really? Going to walk into edolstra's house and defecate on his kitchen counter like that? Tone-deaf arrogance
7 Jun 2024: zimbatm publicly steps down from foundation board
zimbatm: "What was difficult was that the foundation wasn’t designed to resolve those conflicts in the first place"
My permanent ban
10 Jun 2024: I get unsuspended from NixOS
Just an email saying, "you've been invited to github.com/NixOS org"
No message from moderation team, or delegate. It was as if someone just "left the door open" to github.com/NixOS.
Commit rights were not restored (have to be in the org before you get commit rights, I think)
11 Jun 2024: Reach out to Domen in private about restoring my commit bit
For context: domen was the one who first gave me the commit bit, back in Sep 2019
11 Jun 2024: I attempt to revive RFC 175, pointing out that very real moderation actions against those involved likely contributes to the RFC languishing
jonringer: Holistically, silencing individuals with dissenting views just furthers division; as the individuals who may have considered themselves as part of the community now have to question whether or not they are able to participate freely. And those individuals will only confide in others who have shown "similar positions", thus creating a series of echo chambers within the community. Ideally people of different backgrounds can feel welcome to collaborate here.
11 to 19 Jun 2024: Catch up on backlogged PRs and issues on github.com/nixos/nixpkgs.
Quite annoyed that I can't merge PRs, which is the main issue with nixpkgs (from a technical standpoint).
14 Jun 2024: Hexa attempted to remove me as a python maintainer on the 14th
Fully aware that I'm participating on github, but likely don't have my commit rights restored
(personal conjecture): This was an attempt to provoke me
19 Jun 2024 03:36 PST: Domen replies in private DM: "could you post on the commit request [github issue]?"
(personal conjecture): This does put domen in a bit of an odd spot, "falling back to the normal" workflow was the conventional choice
19 Jun 2024 10:36 PST: I reply: "sure"
19 Jun 2024 14:13 PST: I post my initial commit request
(personal aside): While writing the request, it felt relevant to also state why I'm requesting my commit bit again
(personal aside): As I was stating that I suspended, I explained that github doesn't have a suspend action, so I was "banned" from the org, then re-added without my commit status being restored
(personal aside): Since I mentioned that my commit bit was taken, I also inappropriately decided to state that I didn't agree with the circumstances around my commit bit being taken.
(personal aside): After posting, it was made clear that also using that moment as a platform to state my personal grievances with my suspension was not appropriate, I later removed it.
19 Jun 2024 14:43 PST: Hurt and emotional after 3 posts and a downvote brigade were made in opposition, I make a reddit post
(personal aside): In all of this, I think this was my one inexcusable action. I should just have confided with someone in private.
(personal aside): I did have a real fear of them dangling my commit bit and making me "repent" in order to get it back.
This is also why my suspension reddit post, from 7 weeks prior, was worded as a goodbye to the community.
(personal aside): Also upon reflection during this period, I knew that the moderation team wanted to get rid of me prior to my suspension, and were just looking excuses to get rid of me; and that it was likely just a matter of time before I "commit a sin".
(personal aside): The reddit thread pretty much concludes that I shouldn't be making "appeals in the court of public opinion like this"
Eventually I agree after calming down. Remove the moderation grievances from my commit appeal.
19 Jun 2024 14:47 PST: I create discourse thread to avoid polluting the commit request thread with additional posts which disagree with my commit bit
nrdxp:
jonringer was banned for a vague and unjust reason. This community is far too large to expect to create a homogenous culture where we all agree on every nuance of what folks should believe, jonringer is a productive long standing member of the community, more long-standing than many of his detractors even, and the way he actually treats people is quite respectful.
The big one in this case though, is the first one. We don’t want to set a precedent of banning people for vague reasons, then requiring them to beg to get their commit bit back. The ban was wrong (reactionary) and unjustified, so there really shouldn’t be a debate.
ElvishJerricco: "Well there has been a large debate about this the past months so this isn’t true"
(personal aside): As I had been previously given a no-notice suspension, this was the first time I had disputed the suspension on a NixOS platform, with a moderator, or another community member
19 Jun 2024 17:32 PST: Infinisil states that I'm continuing to "willfully furthering the division in the community":
"for the sake of everybody’s sanity, I ask you to please disengage, self-reflect, and focus your energy on what you excel at: Technical contributions."
19 Jun 2024 18:20 PST: I agree with Inifisil, this is not helping:
I have removed the section about my personal grievances with moderation decisions, out of respect for you and the what the assembly are trying to achieve.
I will ask everyone to see how having dozens of people of people downvote and trying to squeeze you out of what you used to consider a home can be perceived. As much as I would like to come off a emotionally hardened stalwart of Nix excellence, I’m also human. I have emotions and aspirations of my own. Being met by hatred and vile everywhere for being stubborn about what I think are reasonable opinions (e.g. universal inclusivity, fair moderation) feels just bad.
19 Jun 2024 22:36 PST: I try to "just defend" myself from lies and FUD at this point
20 Jun 2024 06:42 PST: JulienMalka implies I'm a security risk, for not having the trust of the community
"Be it only for matters of software supply chain security, giving commit access to someone that do not have the trust of the community seems very bad to me."
20 Jun 2024 11:22 PST: I try to redirect additional posts on commit request thread to discourse thread
20 Jun 2024 14:48 PST: I make my final post trying to defend myself, stating that further discussion likely won't be helpful
20 Jun 2024: I go back to reviewing PRs and pickup up maintainership of critical packages
21 Jun 2024 03:46 PST: Hexa closes discourse thread: "I think enough damage has been done today. It would be foolish to let anyone continue at this point."
(personal aside): The conversation regressed into slander long ago, and this was the right choice
21 Jun 2024 07:45 PST: infinisil posts constitutional Assembly statement recommending my permanent ban
"In discussion with the moderation team, we are recommending that Jon should be banned permanently from all community spaces."
(personal aside): This feels like the foundation v2: a handful of people being pressured into the activist agenda.
21 Jun 2024 07:48 PST: I am permanently banned from NixOS on all platforms
Post Ban
21 Jun 2024: hexa and delroth talk about purging the Nix community on Lix matrix
hexa: "It is hard to come to an agreement to eject people who are driving parts of the project."
delroth: "only if you don't see that the alternative is inaction that ejects people who are driving parts of the project. then it's a fairly simple values + tradeoffs call"
hexa: "yes, but what is needed is a purge, not excluding individuals"
hexa: "and there is no agreement to do the purge"
domen, nrdxp, tomberek explicitly mentioned in thread as nuisances
(personal conjecture): This is super divisive thinking: "it's us or them"
24 Jun 2024: RFC175 closed due to "unrealistic path towards being accepted"
(personal aside): This would have likely regressed into a chaotic shepherd nomination, similar to RFC98's chaotic nominations
28 Jun 2024: thufschmitt steps down from foundation board
thufschmitt:
The recent drama-crazyness that spawned in the community a few months ago has killed my motivation to keep contributing. I have been truly amazed and inspired by the overall commitment of most community members in improving things and keeping the boat afloat – whatever their vision of a successful community was. But I have also been deeply hurt by some behaviours, when people considered that pushing for their own idea of a successful community was worth spreading hate, defamation, fear and exclusion, or by the (too recurrent) thinking that one’s own agenda was more important than honesty, truth, and care for the others. ... I’ve also – as @balsoft just anounced – resigned from my role of Nix group lead at Tweag.
for context: domen left in march, eelco in april, zimbatm in may, and now thufschmitt in June. Leaving only the treasurer left, Ron Efroni.
23 Dec 2024: Hexa switches NixOS Infra to use lix instead of nix as the package manager in a self-merged PR with no review
11 Feb 2025: Delroth justifies lix change over protocol issues between certain Nix version
