Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[WelperHelper99]

Nigger, everyone cooks their books. I cook my fucking books. Learn how world works and stop moving goalposts like some fucking weasel.

Generally its not a good idea to cook your books on defense spending, but that's neither here nor there.

This isn't new, the Iranians did it during the Iran-Iraq War
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Bikes have been in warfare since the bicycle was invented tbh, then we figured out you could stick a motor on the thing.

 

[Crex Crex]

I hope this war will finally kill the current globohippie iteration of the EU. Europe desperately needs industry and manpower and the faggot eurocrats need to stop acting like a bunch of humanities majors wasting time and money on diversity and envitonmental shit. We need warhawks and bombs now, and the post-WWII "HURR DURR NEVUR AGAIN" mentality must be shed.

 

[East_Clintwood]

Would be interesting to see if this goes anywhere post-war

Depends on what you mean by going anywhere. Bikes definitely have some niche uses, SOF would sometimes use them in Afghanistan when heading into the hills for example. The main issue is bikes are incredibly vulnerable to basically everything, and have limited ability to transport other shit like supplies. The way Russia uses them in direct assaults is frankly insane, and mostly a result of them not having a better option.

 

[Ghostse]

If the EU creates a strong military independent of the US, it will naturally push for more autonomy and develop aspirations of expanding its sphere of influence outside the continent. This will undermine the global power structure that currently strongly favors the US. [....]
Even if confederated, the EU would never match the military power of the US within our lifetimes, but it doesn't need to in order to undermine the hegemony of the US.

The issue is this already happens. The EU already actively interferes with US global policy and works to economically harm its protector. You have people telling Europe to pick one: military-dependent client state, or equal partner able to defend itself.

Also, most nations in the EU that matter except for Germany meet the required spending on military/defence. If you want to tax Luxemburg or Cyprus, be my guest. For the original source go to: https://eda.europa.eu/publications-and-data/defence-data

Look at the data pre-2022. This is only recent, and the result of cooked books like counting donated equipment to Ukraine as their spend. They need crank that way up to make up for decades of underspend.
Also 2% is a minimum. There is very good reasons Trump wants to raise that to 5%.

Somewhere on this website (perhaps this very thread) I recall a poster of good standing explaining how European nations are prone to cooking their books with regards to GDP spending. The explanation revolved around the example of Artillery shells that would be given to a country like Germany where through bureaucracy magic these shells would be moved around and then labeled as part of the country's GDP expenditure on defense. I can't recall where I saw this as it was a year ago and I'm not particularly interested in digging for it to win an argument but that's my understanding of how countries in the EU achieve their spending requirements, by cheating.

Also not to shift goalposts or anything but 2 percent is rookie numbers and the requirement should be higher imo(4-5%)

I can't find the source but this is correct. But its even worse as countries like Netherlands and... I think it was Slovakia were trying to count their HUMANITARIAN aid as military aid offsetting their NATO requirements.
They also count all military spending: pensions, health care, etc. Not just precurement and readiness.

Shhh. No need to go at each other. The 2 % guideline was not meet for too long. Dissatisfaction doesn't go away within one year. Some places in the US are devastating. It's little wonder people are upset. Costs are clearly visible. Benefits not so much.
That the US can force laws such as the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act upon the rest should be taken of note. Is that law benefical? I don't have a clue. But I bet it's makes tax evasion via Swiss bank accounts more difficult.

Infighting is gay while there are ziggers around.

The other thing to consider, and I've touched on in other posts, is that 2% doesn't go as far as it used to. Europe has gutted its heavy industry. They would need to invest a lot more than 2% to get their arms and/or precurement industries recapitalized and brought to current.

As an example, the US just spent something like $6 billion since 2018 to modernize their arm's production facilities in staggered phases (this likely factored into Putin's timing on Ukraine invasion, as he went in right when US artillery production capacity was at its lowest since before WWI; those facilities are coming back online now, and I think we're waiting on just two more + one being brought out of mothballs and rapidly modernized). Europe isn't doing with the partial exception of Rheinmetall.

It would be one thing if there was an attitude of "Yes, we really fucked up. We spent 30 years being smug europoor grasshoppers, the US was right, Trump was right, we should have been building our militaries, funding production capacity, and being ready for Russia to reform the USSR", but there largely isn't. When their mistake is pointed out, the Eurocucks come up with 10,001 reasons why its not their fault, they shouldn't need to fund their own defense, and Americans should be happy for the privilege of paying and dying for the fuckups of ungrateful serfs an ocean away for the 3rd goddamn time.

Motorcycles in warfare is pretty neat. Top tier aesthetically and also reminiscent of the Japanese using bicycles. Would be interesting to see if this goes anywhere post-war

Motorcycles are of limited utility because the rider is exposed and in a BMX assault limited in what they could take with them. They are viable for Russia because their doctrine relies on probing actions without regard to casualty rate.

This is madness. Russia has like 10,000 nuclear warheads.
You, and people I've read on the Internet, seem to be working yourselves up to saying America shouldn't be in NATO, shouldn't defend Europe at all, even were they to increase their defense spending.
[...]If Russia is given a pause to rearm and resupply, Russia becomes a conventional military threat to Europe again, even without considering nuclear weapons.

Addressing the first point: Russia has a lot of warheads but only a very small percentage are capable of reaching the US mainland and only a handful can reach a US state that doesn't have a coastline. Its all bombs, and Short- or Intermediate-Range missiles (cruise and ballistic). If the US just said "Europe get fucked, first strike time" the US has enough stealth bombers to decapitate Russia's ability to respond to a US first strike. And don't get me started on their gay, worthless subs.
Russia's nukes are a threat to EUROPE but not the US. Hence why Americans get testy when Euros refuse to defend themselves - America isn't at risk, ya'll are and yet you scream bloody murder when expected to have the means to defend yourselves, or not immediately cuck to Russian aggression.

To the second point, that's also my great fear. Russia is just going to us any pause to rearm and try again with a less ready opposition.

@Ghostse Woodrow Wilson did sent the U.S. Army to Russia as the American Expeditionary Force Siberia in 1918-1919. It have been largely forgotten to put it politely as TPTB memory-holed it since it was the prelude of the things to come for the rest of the 20th Century and the start of thd 21th. With the govt sending the military all over the world with undefined or no objectives told to them, and restrictive rules of engagement.

Yes, but they didn't really invade-invade; they were sent mainly to get the Czech legion to the Pacific (The Czech legion is fucking wild shit) and to make sure supplies sent to help in WWI didn't end up in German hands, and as WWI wound down to make sure Japan didn't leverage the chaos. Part of that was largely how completely Rat-fucked the Whites were. And as you said, the prellude to a deployments with contradictory objectives and no realistic means of accheiving anything lasting.

When I say invade I mean a serious effort to stomp the commies vs 10,000 troops with limited heavy equipment trying to secure ports.

I filtered out the MAGA spammers days ago, and they're still copy pasting their garbage. Absolutely the right decision to make if you value your time. Since they don't contribute anything to the thread topic, you're not missing out on any worthwhile information.

"When you cut out a man's tongue, you don't call him a liar. You only advertise you fear what he has to say"

 

[WelperHelper99]

The other thing to consider, and I've touched on in other posts, is that 2% doesn't go as far as it used to. Europe has gutted its heavy industry. They would need to invest a lot more than 2% to get their arms and/or precurement industries recapitalized and brought to current.

As an example, the US just spent something like $6 billion since 2018 to modernize their arm's production facilities in staggered phases (this likely factored into Putin's timing on Ukraine invasion, as he went in right when US artillery production capacity was at its lowest since before WWI; those facilities are coming back online now, and I think we're waiting on just two more + one being brought out of mothballs and rapidly modernized). Europe isn't doing with the partial exception of Rheinmetall.

It would be one thing if there was an attitude of "Yes, we really fucked up. We spent 30 years being smug europoor grasshoppers, the US was right, Trump was right, we should have been building our militaries, funding production capacity, and being ready for Russia to reform the USSR", but there largely isn't. When their mistake is pointed out, the Eurocucks come up with 10,001 reasons why its not their fault, they shouldn't need to fund their own defense, and Americans should be happy for the privilege of paying and dying for the fuckups of ungrateful serfs an ocean away for the 3rd goddamn time.

Thing is if the Euros had been at 2% for the last 20 years, they wouldn't need to bump up to 5% nessicararily. I'll qualify that by the Euros not counting shit like humanitarian aid in that. I mean buying tanks and ships and shit. If every Euro country was like Poland in their defense acquisitions, there wouldn't be nearly as much controversy or contention.

"When you cut out a man's tongue, you don't call him a liar. You only let others know you feel what he has to say"

Amen.

 

[Frederica Bernkastel]

Who is this even addressed to? Is it a memo to yourself?

He's just constantly shit up the thread with his TDS, and his passive aggressive attitude. He's telling you to ignore him because he lacks the self control to move on.

 

[World in Scarlet]

He's just constantly shit up the thread with his TDS, and his passive aggressive attitude. He's telling you to ignore him because he lacks the self control to move on.

TDS is when you quote American politicians and neutrally describe their actions? The things I say aren't particularly out there, they're the consensus view of analysis and observers of events (whose writings partially inform my opinion). The only place where people somehow can't seem to perceive these things are MAGA echo-chambers, but even here nobody is able to contest them. They just spam whataboutisms and insult people, and cry about how victimized they are when they get a response in kind. I filtered these people days ago and they're still going on about it, but I'm the one who isn't moving on?
Being a lying retard is a pre-requisite for being a MAGAnigger after all.

I'm pointing these things out for third parties, so they can see you for what you are.
You'll ever honestly engage with anything related to your derangement.

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Depends on what you mean by going anywhere. Bikes definitely have some niche uses, SOF would sometimes use them in Afghanistan when heading into the hills for example. The main issue is bikes are incredibly vulnerable to basically everything, and have limited ability to transport other shit like supplies. The way Russia uses them in direct assaults is frankly insane, and mostly a result of them not having a better option.

They use the bikes because they allow them to quickly close the distance, ideally avoiding being targeted in the first place, and being harder to hit otherwise.

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True, if "peace keepers" do not have the mandate to kill Russian soldiers and destroy Russian military equipment on Russian soil, they are useless.

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Examples:

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A Russian soldier circles a pylon, trying in vain to avoid Ukrainian drones. Pokrovsk direction.

Spoiler

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Trench air defense: TOZ-34 smoothbore hunting rifle and drone suppressor backpack of the Harpy series CKJ-1704 Mobile.

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High-tech anti-drone system consisting of four AK-74 with a thermal imager and image output to a monitor.

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A Russian storm trooper throws his crutch at a drone and manages to hit it, though at very close range.

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Carriages with the 73-mm 2A28 Grom gun from the BMP-1 have repeatedly appeared in the ranks of the Russian Armed Forces, now the 30-mm 2A42 autocannon from the BMP-2 on a carriage from the D-44 gun has appeared in the frame.

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Another miracle MRAP from the Russian military-industrial complex.

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Russian cavalry on the Eastern Front. The second horse seems to carry some kind of ATGM. They're ready to storm fortified positions.

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Sudzha after 6 months of Russian bombing.

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Russia tank is hit by mortar, and turns to flee, customarily crushing a Russian soldier under its tracks. Pokrovsk direction.

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Marines from the 155th went on another suicidal assault. This time they put Soviet flags on their tanks, but the religious icons did not protect them.

link I had to re-encode it so it would embed.

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Movable models of Ukrainian BMP-1s

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A Ukrainian F-16 was again sighted carrying bombs.

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A flock of birds feeding on a Russian soldier's corpse.

Spoiler

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[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Another miracle MRAP from the Russian military-industrial complex.

That's a GAZ-24 cargo wagon FFS! I can feel its pain. "I just wanted to be a taxi..."

 

[Jewthulhu]

Russia has like 10,000 nuclear warheads.

Russia reportedly has about 5,000 warheads in total, including ~1,000 marked for dismantlement, ~1,500 nonstrategic warheads, and a good portion of its strategic arsenal held in reserve (most sources I'm finding say it has about 1,700 deployed, strategic warheads).

Addressing the first point: Russia has a lot of warheads but only a very small percentage are capable of reaching the US mainland and only a handful can reach a US state that doesn't have a coastline. Its all bombs, and Short- or Intermediate-Range missiles (cruise and ballistic).

While Russia has a sizable nonstrategic arsenal (something the US lacks), they have plenty ICBMs capable of hitting the US mainland. Of the 1700 deployed warheads, half are ICBMs.

If the US just said "Europe get fucked, first strike time" the US has enough stealth bombers to decapitate Russia's ability to respond to a US first strike.

Effective counterforce is difficult to do, especially against a near-peer opponent. We're talking near-simultaneous, undetected strikes on hundreds of launch platforms. I think even if you scramble every F35 we have, we still won't have enough for an effective strike. And if we're talking "stealth bombers," the US has only 20 B2 Spirits. And that's of course ignoring overkill, which is necessary for such a mission in order to saturate air defenses and ensure success.

 

[Ghostse]

While Russia has a sizable nonstrategic arsenal (something the US lacks), they have plenty ICBMs capable of hitting the US mainland. Of the 1700 deployed warheads, half are ICBMs.

you need to check the range on Russian ICBMs. The US, only needing to bitchsmack Russia or maybe china, gave every ICBM true global reach.
Russia, wanting to irradiate Europe, has a a few classes of missiles that can reach london but would struggle to reach San Fransisco ever since they abandoned their attempt to put silos in Kamchatka. "We can hit Europe from Asia! Its intercontinental!" the Asiatic screams thumping his chest.

Russia reportedly has about 5,000 warheads in total, including ~1,000 marked for dismantlement, ~1,500 nonstrategic warheads, and a good portion of its strategic arsenal held in reserve (most sources I'm finding say it has about 1,700 deployed, strategic warheads).

While Russia has a sizable nonstrategic arsenal (something the US lacks), they have plenty ICBMs capable of hitting the US mainland. Of the 1700 deployed warheads, half are ICBMs.

Effective counterforce is difficult to do, especially against a near-peer opponent. We're talking near-simultaneous, undetected strikes on hundreds of launch platforms. I think even if you scramble every F35 we have, we still won't have enough for an effective strike. And if we're talking "stealth bombers," the US has only 20 B2 Spirits. And that's of course ignoring overkill, which is necessary for such a mission in order to saturate air defenses and ensure success.

Again, we are assuming a "Lol sucks to be Europe. (And Alaska. And probably Japan)" scenario, there is only one Russian ICBM type capable of reaching continential US from inside Russia, that is the SATAN-I (and eventually SATAN-II if they can ever get them to not blow up their own silos or have a successful test launch more than once a decade).

The remaining russian silos are concentrated in two groups, and there aren't a terrible number of them still operational. Just the US B-2 fleet could take them out, and wouldn't even need to be nuke armed to do it.
Russia DOES have mobile launchers, but the range suffers. To hit non-Alaskan US, they would need move into and launch from the very borders of Russia while being observed by glownigger spy sats.

They only have iirc 3 subs that are capable of launching submerged - they are working to build more but its been slow. The rest must surface to fire, which means they need surface cover. And that is ignoring the US has, active, over two attack subs per Russian boomer.

The main takeaway is: The US could remove Russia's ability to launch on the US with conventional weapons. Russia's Airdefense has been proven fake and gay against Soviet aircraft let along stealth bombers. Again, assuming the US is willing to just shrug as Europeans are vaporized along with thier neglected militaries (and term Alaskans as honorary Europeans), the US could just say "Surrender or the next salvo is mushroom clouds" with Russia unable to do anything TO THE US in response.

The US of course wouldn't do this because we aren't run by bloodthirsty power-mad despots.
currently.

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

Countering Russian fiber-optic drone operators by following their lines, shining in the morning sun:

 

[World in Scarlet]

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Elon Musk is working around the clock to make the United States more like Russia. Perhaps after relations are normalized and sanctions are dropped, Russia can repay the favour by sending advisors to aid in the transformation.

 

[WelperHelper99]

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Elon Musk is working around the clock to make the United States more like Russia. Perhaps after relations are normalized and sanctions are dropped, Russia can repay the favour by sending advisors to aid in the transformation.

Ah yes, peace talks are happening. Good. Hope it goes well.

 

[No. 7 cat]

Suchomimus: Kursk Update: 155th Brigade Column Waving Soviet Flags is Destroyed Near Nikol'skii - there still exist smooth brains who think Russia is somehow based and trad. The only thing trad about Russia is nostalgia for the Soviet Union. Putin talked blasphemously of the resemblance between Christianity and Communism a few years ago. These Russkies larped as Soviets (as they often do in Ukraine) tried to reinforce the Norks in Kursk and became biomass, as is destiny.

 

[Apteryx Retardi]

That's a GAZ-24 cargo wagon FFS! I can feel its pain. "I just wanted to be a taxi..."

Nah it's a Moskvich(sp?), a step down from GAZ-24. From 1980s probably.

 

[Ghostse]

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Suchomimus: Kursk Update: 155th Brigade Column Waving Soviet Flags is Destroyed Near Nikol'skii - there still exist smooth brains who think Russia is somehow based and trad. The only thing trad about Russia is nostalgia for the Soviet Union. Putin talked blasphemously of the resemblance between Christianity and Communism a few years ago. These Russkies larped as Soviets (as they often do in Ukraine) tried to reinforce the Norks in Kursk and became biomass, as is destiny.

Another good video.
"Protecting a field from being hit by drones". lol.
How can anyone say that Russia's economy is failing when they are still producing dead communists at rates like these?

So have the vatniggers finally stop trying to deny the presence of Norks and shifted to how its based, trad, and great news for the strength of the multipolar world?

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Elon Musk is working around the clock to make the United States more like Russia. Perhaps after relations are normalized and sanctions are dropped, Russia can repay the favour by sending advisors to aid in the transformation.

Hmm, could it be that Elon means competent US leadership means getting the Russians to actually send a delegation to the peace talks something Biden couldn't make happen? No, no that can't be. My hatred of African Americans means he can only be a 5th columnist. Good heavens, why can't Elon be a good ally for Ukraine, like Scholz who pulled 3 billion in mility aid?

TDS is when you quote American politicians and neutrally describe their actions? The things I say aren't particularly out there, they're the consensus view of analysis and observers of events (whose writings partially inform my opinion). The only place where people somehow can't seem to perceive these things are MAGA echo-chambers, but even here nobody is able to contest them. They just spam whataboutisms and insult people, and cry about how victimized they are when they get a response in kind. I filtered these people days ago and they're still going on about it, but I'm the one who isn't moving on?
Being a lying retard is a pre-requisite for being a MAGAnigger after all.

Instead of countering the arguments of his definitely correct position, he blocks opposing view points. A very Euronigger tactic. Also a Reddit one, which is just as bad.

"My position is so correct I must silence and ignore all opposition to it" - A poster who is intelligent and not deranged in the slightest.

Since things are being pointed out to "third parties"
This euronigger has been proven wrong repeatedly: He was posting about the wholly debunked Pee Tape like it was still real just this past election, ignores the multiple times Trump was proven right even if he wasn't sufficiently polite when speaking. He posted provably false assertions that Trump withheld military aid from Ukraine (he threatened he might do so, but did not), ignores the Russian forces getting annihilated in Syria when he proclaims Trump as a Russian asset, and screams about Trump haranguing supposed allies while ignoring both the substance of those complaints (In ability to meet treaty requirements, tarrifs on the nation spending billions on their defense) and the fact that if Europe had functional militaries those threats would be meaningless.
When provably corrected, this nigger never apologies nor learns any lessons that "maybe if one thing I've been told by someone is not true, other things the told might also not be true. I should maybe do some research or think harder before spouting", no just shifts to the next lie like a Zigger, while accusing anyone doubting his narrative of being one.

He never fails to make excuses for Europe continuing to important trillions in natural gas since 2014, continuing to buy gas from them (via third parties) and gets very uncomfortable when its pointed out that European money funded the Russian war machine tearing up Ukraine, while screaming that other countries aren't doing enough to save Europeans from the threat they enabled.

He doesn't wait for Trump to do something before meltingdown, he screams into a sobbing mess at the POSSIBLITY Trump could do something. He posts articles with headlines that don't match their content, and at best case had journalistic interpretation of things from "anonymous sources" with no idea who those sources are or if they would even have a fucking clue on what they're running their mouths about.

And speaking of ignorance, he very clearly lacks any deep knowledge of US politics, other than Orange Man bad/People who cuck to Europe good, despite melting down for months about it. He holds Trump to a standard no other politician is held to and refuses to explain why or apply that standard to other politicians involved in this mess.

He cries about USAID having thier funding yanked while doing nothing to contribute to affected NGOs, or acknowledging that if a org can't surive an audit and prove they are advancing US foreign policy, they probably shouldn't be getting US tax dollars.

Instead of countering the arguments of his definitely correct position, he blocks opposing view points. A very Euronigger tactic. Also a Reddit one, which is just as bad.
He claims to be persecuted in a MAGA echo chamber despite multiple other posters being skeptical-to-critical of Trump.

And yet, despite his clear TDS, his ignorance, his autisitic retardation, he is not blocked and all his ignorant drivel gets a response (when its not just him clearly voicing his opinion instead of attempting to making a point/pass opinion as fact).

All this while he refuses to post the country he lives in so his local politics can be mocked. He seems fearful of being rounded up for wrong think, so likely UK or Germany. His fear of speaking ill of Scholz makes me think Germany but his heavy use of the 'u' key makes me think UK.

 

[teriyakiburns]

Nah it's a Moskvich(sp?), a step down from GAZ-24. From 1980s probably.

Hey now, don't knock the moskvitch. My dad used to drive a 408 (or maybe a 412) back in the day. He particularly appreciated the cold weather shutter on the radiator, though he had less use for the ice fishing hole in the footwell.

 

[National Defense Advocate]

Frankly, I'm rather unimpressed by any party involved.
The Trump team seemingly has no plan, barring Europe is stupid as they've been infinitely more involved than we have.
It's one thing to browbeat Euros into submission, as Vice President Baby Face has demonstrated, making a lasting peace between 2 countries that fuckin hate each other is far, far more difficult.

Europeans are also acting like crybaby bitches, they had 3 FUCKING YEARS to do anything with their militaries and did nothing.
They are constantly trying to pawn off the dying on somebody else, either Americans or Ukrainians.

Ultimately I think the goal for the Trump admin is to kick the can sufficiently down the road so the next guy can catch the blame, IE the Obama strategy.

 

[SBG]

Ah yes, peace talks are happening. Good. Hope it goes well.

Would be better if they had actually invited Ukraine to the talks this week where it seems they're going to be absent. But I'm assuming the US is talking to Ukraine about what all they're wanting and is mostly trying to feel out what all Russia will claim to want to make them feel things are going as they wanted, at least publicly.

Has been funny though seeing people outraged today after finding out that the whole "50% of the minerals revenue" thing really meant "50% of the minerals revenue". Apparently there were many thinking it was a joke or exaggeration. I'm not even sure why it's supposed to be that horrific to do since it'd mean a massive amount of money for Ukraine that they were definitely not going to be getting if the US didn't invest heavily nor if Russia took over.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Would be better if they had actually invited Ukraine to the talks this week where it seems they're going to be absent. But I'm assuming the US is talking to Ukraine about what all they're wanting and is mostly trying to feel out what all Russia will claim to want to make them feel things are going as they wanted, at least publicly.

The US and Russia are old superpowers. Different relationship to the rest of the world frankly. They will talk, and if there's progress, they'll let Ukraine know. If there isn't progress, things go on as usual.

Has been funny though seeing people outraged today after finding out that the whole "50% of the minerals revenue" thing really meant "50% of the minerals revenue". Apparently there were many thinking it was a joke or exaggeration. I'm not even sure why it's supposed to be that horrific to do since it'd mean a massive amount of money for Ukraine that they were definitely not going to be getting if the US didn't invest heavily nor if Russia took over.

Trump doesn't lie about wanting a RoI. He's a buisness man. It shouldn't be hard to understand for people lol. We gave them billions in weapons, we want billions in minerals back. Ukraine profits because they take a cut from the US investing in the country, and the US can tell China to fuck off with their rare earth minerals.