Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[The tired cat]

Series Charlie being regarded as "Mary Sue" isn't because she doesn't have flaws, the flaws are there, it's just that she doesn't necessarily get called out on it, or to be more specific, doesn't reflect on how the consequences of her actions as a means to develop as a character as the show paints her as in the right, regardless of how little she earned it. Characterization wise, Pilot Charlie is optimistic but a realist when it ultimately comes down to it

Pilot Charlie is an optimist, but you can also tell she's actually a realist and doesn't seem like she's against doing a hands on approach. She knows the Hotel is a shot in the dark, she doesn't know if the plan will work or not. But, we also see that she's kinda street smart, in sense that she didn't fall for Alastors deal offer and told him to work for her right away, she didn't take shit from Katie and instantly tackled the bitch. Series Charlie? I'm sorry, you can sell that girl magic beans, and I'm pretty sure she'll believe they're real. Heck, she doesn't even have an actual plan for her hotel and whole thing is just "Figure it out and it'll work out for us"

 

[The Nothingness]

Viv or anyone from the staff never really went into detail about the Exorcists as far as I'm aware. I feel like that's why the "Vaggie's an Exorcist" theory wasn't as prominent in the early days due to the lack of information on what exactly the Exorcists were truly supposed to be.

Several things about Hazbin disappointed me, but among the bigger examples, it's easily the Exorcists. All these years of mystery surrounding these creatures: What are they? How dangerous are they that causes the Overlords and Lucifer to be hiding from them?

How do they think, if they think at all? Why does Heaven even care about Hell being overpopulated? So much intrigue that's just waiting to be unraveled and ...





They're Crimson's goons. And Heaven thinks Hell is going to cause an uprising, which was stated within the first couple minutes of Episode One. Oh.

This post got my creative juices flowing again where I came up another hypothetical version of the show that's condensed into three seasons. Some of the ideas are ones I and others have already discussed.

Spoiler: Season One

Vaggie, keeping her pilot version where she was a prostitute and devil worshipper, is the audience surrogate who ends up in Hell three months before the next Extermination Day. She meets Charlie and the other guests at the hotel: Angel Dust (a drug addict), Husk (a casino/mob boss), Sir Pentious (a military commander from the Victorian era), and Cherri Bomb (an anarchist). Lucifer has several guest appearance to establish his relationship with Charlie. This season would mainly showcase the characters' relationships with each other, Charlie's rehabilitation project, and the characters fighting against their various temptations. You would have Pentious and Cherri at odds because of their personalities (order vs. chaos), Husk and Angel bonding as Angel reminds Husk of so many men he saw become addicted to drugs/gambling, and Vaggie grows close to Charlie as Vaggie begins to question everything she thought about Heaven and Hell was wrong. The season ends with Vaggie witnessing and learning about Extermination Day along with the Exorcists announcing the next one has been moved up 6 months. The audience, but not the main characters, learn this is due to one of the Exorcists was killed and the leaders tell one another, "if she finds out, she will ruin everything," and state the first target in six months will be the hotel.

Spoiler: Season Two

Vaggie sees how most of Hell is either indifferent to Extermination Day or use it for their own selfish reasons afterwards (see Cherri and Pentious fighting for territory in the pilot). Lucifer tells Vaggie that this cleansing is necessary as he ominously says it reminds people of their place (you probably know where I'm going with this). Meanwhile, Charlie and Vaggie both work to show redeeming Sinners is possible while trying to get in contact with Heaven representative. A twist occurs before the finale where the pair meet up with the heavenly envoy on Earth (I never did like the idea of both sides could go to each other's realms on a whim) and reveals that angels have never been to Hell for Extermination Day. Season Two ends with the Exorcists demolishing the hotel while the characters mount a futile defense. This would result in one of the main cast sacrificing themselves and it's revealed the Exorcists are demons themselves (Hell-born instead of Sinners). It's also revealed that Lucifer is the one behind Extermination Day.

Spoiler: Season Three

The central conflict would be between Charlie and Lucifer. Lucifer is angered at the idea of Sinners being redeemed when he and the other angels that fell with him never got a second chance. So, he does Extermination Day out of pure spitefulness. I admit the major twist kind of falls apart if you ask the question, "Why doesn't Lucifer just do Sinner genocide every day instead of having it be an annual event?" A power struggle ensues between father and daughter as Charlie tries rallying support. The character who dies last season ends in Heaven and has to find a way to let Charlie know redemption works. One of the big questions to end the series is can Charlie and Lucifer reconcile or what will the fate of Hell be if they cannot.

Coming up for the third season was a bit more difficult as I stated, but I'm sure others may give their thoughts on how to improve it. That is what's fun about this thread.

 

[Saxxon]

Series Charlie being regarded as "Mary Sue" isn't because she doesn't have flaws, the flaws are there, it's just that she doesn't necessarily get called out on it, or to be more specific, doesn't reflect on how the consequences of her actions as a means to develop as a character as the show paints her as in the right, regardless of how little she earned it. Characterization wise, Pilot Charlie is optimistic but a realist when it ultimately comes down to it

Compared to Series Charlie who legitimately thinks life is Sunshine and Rainbows, and if anything inconveniences that ideology, she's gets overly emotional towards people who had the audacity to upset her.

I completely forgot how more charismatic and charming pilot Charlie looked, I don't even have any problem with how she looks currently but some of that "soul" if you can call it that was absolutely sand-off so the korean art slaves could animate her.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

Pilot Charlie is an optimist, but you can also tell she's actually a realist and doesn't seem like she's against doing a hands on approach. She knows the Hotel is a shot in the dark, she doesn't know if the plan will work or not. But, we also see that she's kinda street smart, in sense that she didn't fall for Alastors deal offer and told him to work for her right away, she didn't take shit from Katie and instantly tackled the bitch. Series Charlie? I'm sorry, you can sell that girl magic beans, and I'm pretty sure she'll believe they're real. Heck, she doesn't even have an actual plan for her hotel and whole thing is just "Figure it out and it'll work out for us"

I pointed this out ITT before, but I'll say it again. Pilot Charlie is a social outcast because she's basically the only person in Hell who is a good person, Series Charlie is a social outcast because she's a massive womanchild.

 

[ReceiveAndAsk]

If I had a nickel for every show Vivzie made that has gone off the rails immediately after the pilot

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

If I had a nickel for every show Vivzie made that has gone off the rails immediately after the pilot

....you'd have 3 nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened 3 times from a supposedly "seasoned" artist, right?

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Overall, compared to Series Charlie, Pilot Charlie seemed to have more of an active role with Hell politics, given Episode 9 had it where she was the one to assemble the Council together, and in the beginning of "I'm Always Chasing Rainbows", she signals that the Extermination's over.

This is pretty much thr case for both shows with the characters not being really active in their own stories. The consequences for their actions don't really have the much oomph to them because they didn't have to make the choice; someone else did. Again, I bring up the Vaggie being revealed to be an exorcist to Charlie; it would have been more impactful of a reveal if Vaggie had decided to listen to Adam or not in court. Whether he reveals it because Vaggie continues to support Charlie's dream, or does it out of spite even after Vaggie goes against Charlie.

Speaking of Vaggie and exorcists, it's very telling how little they matter to the other angels. Like, no one recognized Vaggie outside of Adam and Lute. And it's not like she changed that much. All that is different about her is that her hair is longer and she's missing an eye. Which is another thing that annoys me; how Vaggie doesn't look any different from when she was an exorcist. I know we don't know what the other exorcists look like under their masks, but you couldn't have given Vaggie golden eyes like Lute and Adam have? Couldn't give her an actual skin tone color? Make her hair more white? Just, ANYTHING to differentiate from when she was an exorcist. Thing it would have been more interesting to see a change to her appearance as it would be like Hell is corrupting her.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

This is pretty much thr case for both shows with the characters not being really active in their own stories. The consequences for their actions don't really have the much oomph to them because they didn't have to make the choice; someone else did. Again, I bring up the Vaggie being revealed to be an exorcist to Charlie; it would have been more impactful of a reveal if Vaggie had decided to listen to Adam or not in court. Whether he reveals it because Vaggie continues to support Charlie's dream, or does it out of spite even after Vaggie goes against Charlie.

Speaking of Vaggie and exorcists, it's very telling how little they matter to the other angels. Like, no one recognized Vaggie outside of Adam and Lute. And it's not like she changed that much. All that is different about her is that her hair is longer and she's missing an eye. Which is another thing that annoys me; how Vaggie doesn't look any different from when she was an exorcist. I know we don't know what the other exorcists look like under their masks, but you couldn't have given Vaggie golden eyes like Lute and Adam have? Couldn't give her an actual skin tone color? Make her hair more white? Just, ANYTHING to differentiate from when she was an exorcist. Thing it would have been more interesting to see a change to her appearance as it would be like Hell is corrupting her.

Vaggie being an exorcist is just one of the many things that Viv saw was a talked about idea in the fandom that she decided to make official without putting any real effort into it.

 

[Mad Hunter]

Very true. She's also aware some people just don't really want to change. She just looks ridiculous because she's sometimes awkward in her uncaring, toxic environment and she's genuinely good, but with boundaries. In the addict music video, it shows when Angel gets shocked when she approaches him from the back (bad idea for heavily traumatized people - ALWAYS let them know you're approaching and you mean no harm) and he leaves angrily and she stays back.

She seems to be someome aspiring to be a leader, but no one just listens to her, just like when she does the firework thing to signal everyone is safe. Shes trying to play a part but shes just not nasty and evil like her father, the overlords, and the Goetia.

The old version reminded me of Seras Victoria from Hellsing. Silly, playful, and cute most of the time, childish even for the environment, but with a hidden ruthlessness and a groundedness rooted in compassion and bravery when doing the right thing. Seras was a contrast to Alucard when being a monster - unlike Alucard, she doesn't go around getting bored and destroying things for laughs. Instead, Seras protects. For Hazbin, Lucifer likes dragging people into misery, but Charlie will always fight for the good.

I pointed this out ITT before, but I'll say it again. Pilot Charlie is a social outcast because she's basically the only person in Hell who is a good person, Series Charlie is a social outcast because she's a massive womanchild.

Remember, Viv graduated art school. Also, I've heard that she was one of those who'd get bitter and angry when criticized. I don't know, just a YT comment that stated it.

....you'd have 3 nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened 3 times from a supposedly "seasoned" artist, right?

> Hellborn being the exorcists instead.
TRUE. This makes more sense. Lucifer would turn all the tormented denizens of Hell against each other because he's a selfish piece of shit who feeds on misery. He's a BAD PERSON. Viv just didn't want him to be one because "the Chistians are bad."

Also, another alternative idea is that the exorcists are the subordinate demons of the Overlords, who have gained knowledge of the most dangerous forms of dark magic, strong enough to destroy a sinners soul.



> Military commander Sir Pent and Casino guy Husk

Husk was written to have a military background at some point. I could see these two nerding out over military tactics and technology. I can also see them conversing regarding ideas on WHY they served. Like, to Pentious, it's an ego boost to look like a cool, strong, intelligent, strutting ladies man. For Husk, it's to serve a higher power and to protect those you love and help a nation prosper. Both have been betrayed many times by their own nations and the horrors of war and have been driven batty in the aftermath, with Sir Pentious being an eccentric fellow and Husk turning to gambling, crime, and drinking. This could even be timely, considering Ukraine and free muh Palestine.




I could see God not as one of those uwu sexymen, but simply as someone omnipresent who established the order and is just leaving everything to its devices because at the end of the day, Man is the one choosing to do the right or wrong thing. It is Man making the choice, NOT GOD. FREE WILL. THE SHOW MUST HAMMER THAT IT IS FREE WILL THAT PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS, THINK THE WAY THEY DO, AND CHOOSE TO CHANGE. Someone said Viv should have consulted theologians, demonologists, and priests for this, but I know she is NOT talking to the priests for obvious reasons.

Here's something I learned regarding how societies prosper from a mentor: there has to be a bunch of different ideas coming together from different perspectives and beliefs for progress to occur (minus the ones who would rather fight about their beliefs and be bitchy). Viv needs a spine and accept that people do believe in Christianity and majority who identify as such aren't hellfire and brimstone cult weirdos if she wants an impactful, touching show.

This post got my creative juices flowing again where I came up another hypothetical version of the show that's condensed into three seasons. Some of the ideas are ones I and others have already discussed

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

Also, I've heard that she was one of those who'd get bitter and angry when criticized.

Oh yes.

 

[Strawberry Kiwi Propel]

Vaggie being an exorcist is just one of the many things that Viv saw was a talked about idea in the fandom that she decided to make official without putting any real effort into it.

As poorly handled the execution was, at least there was some merit towards the Exorcist Vaggie plot line for Season One. Looking back, there was no real significance behind the Overlord Husk reveal, which was another popular theory back then. Husk being an Overlord was nothing more of an explanation on how Alastor owned his soul in the first place, but not the details of what Husk had to go through afterwards. Not counting the pilot, he never had a full conversation, if any at all, with Alastor until after "Loser, Baby", which is why most people I see took issue with the song since the relatability factor between Angel and Husk isn't as presented as it tries to be, due to the latter's lack of focus on the matter.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Lucifer would turn all the tormented denizens of Hell against each other because he's a selfish piece of shit who feeds on misery. He's a BAD PERSON. Viv just didn't want him to be one because "the Chistians are bad."

I could see God not as one of those uwu sexymen, but simply as someone omnipresent who established the order and is just leaving everything to its devices because at the end of the day, Man is the one choosing to do the right or wrong thing. It is Man making the choice, NOT GOD. FREE WILL. THE SHOW MUST HAMMER THAT IT IS FREE WILL THAT PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS, THINK THE WAY THEY DO, AND CHOOSE TO CHANGE.

There's quite a few things that Hazbin differs from the story of the Fall of Man.

Firstly, Lucifer was already kicked out of Heaven at this point. Him giving the fruit to Adam and Eve wasn't the reason for his falling; it was because of his prideful nature thinking he was better than God.

Secondly, the tree itself. It wasn't just "the tree of knowledge"; it was "the tree of knowledge of good and evil". The fruit didn't give them free will; they wouldn't have been able to choose to eat of the fruit if that was the case. It essentially opened up their eyes to the good and evil of the world. Meaning that Lucifer basically got more power over Earth than he did before. He got more free will to do what he want on Earth and corrupt it totally, instead of just having one little area.

 

[Re(Runner)48]

Firstly, Lucifer was already kicked out of Heaven at this point. Him giving the fruit to Adam and Eve wasn't the reason for his falling; it was because of his prideful nature thinking he was better than God.

Alot of people don't know this but it's actually Satan that tempts the two (I know hes technicallythe same but they are two diffent people on the show). Not Lucifer as when he lost his angel status he became a demon thus becoming Satan which is funny as they are two different entities/sins in this show, meaning it's more inaccurate and showed Viv wasn't paying attention in Bible camp.

 

[The tired cat]

TRUE. This makes more sense. Lucifer would turn all the tormented denizens of Hell against each other because he's a selfish piece of shit who feeds on misery. He's a BAD PERSON. Viv just didn't want him to be one because "the Chistians are bad."

Also, another alternative idea is that the exorcists are the subordinate demons of the Overlords, who have gained knowledge of the most dangerous forms of dark magic, strong enough to destroy a sinners soul.

Thing is, you can make Lucifer sympathetic, but still show him as a prideful and egotistical prick. Take something like Lucifer from Sandman, there he openly admits he has no interest in souls of mortals, no desire to tempt them or even to rule Hell. He even muses, if the rebellion was planned because God needed someone to oppose him. But! Despite this, we're still shown that Lucifer isn't above being a selfish prick, as he gleefully mocks his heavenly brothers and even mocks mortals on several occasions, seeing them beneath his own perfection. Heck, on few times he pals around the mortal realm, he only offers aid if it'll amuse him in the end.

> Military commander Sir Pent and Casino guy Husk

Husk was written to have a military background at some point. I could see these two nerding out over military tactics and technology. I can also see them conversing regarding ideas on WHY they served. Like, to Pentious, it's an ego boost to look like a cool, strong, intelligent, strutting ladies man. For Husk, it's to serve a higher power and to protect those you love and help a nation prosper. Both have been betrayed many times by their own nations and the horrors of war and have been driven batty in the aftermath, with Sir Pentious being an eccentric fellow and Husk turning to gambling, crime, and drinking. This could even be timely, considering Ukraine and free muh Palestine.

The thing with Husk being a former military member was apparently a joke on a stream, which later Viv had to go out of her way to confirm being a joke. Which, falls back into the problem that Viv tosses so much stuff around, that its hard to tell what material is supposed to be taken as canon and what isn't, because she barely confirms it stuff. At one point, after S1, she went on saying how Vox is supposed to be trans, but that felt like pointless pandering. Heck, one can even ask if Angel Dusts mobster and WW2 vet backgrounds now remained canon or not.

 

[Mad Hunter]

Heck, one can even ask if Angel Dusts mobster and WW2 vet backgrounds now remained canon or not.

Well, if Viv wants to make it interesting, THEN THE NIGGA SHOULD WATCH THE GODFATHER. Take Michael Corleone as the model - WW2 background then became mafioso. For the SJWs, make it that Angel is a gentle, sweet, but sensitive guy so he wants to toughen up, then serves in war. It goes wrong and he goes back home and picks up a drug habit. He then realizes he's a gay man and that's the last straw - for him to prove himself manly to cover his gayness and make a quick buck for his drug habit, he joins the mob.


Us people who have the balls to criticize have the ideas. Viv should listen.

 

[The tired cat]

Well, if Viv wants to make it interesting, THEN THE NIGGA SHOULD WATCH THE GODFATHER. Take Michael Corleone as the model - WW2 background then became mafioso. For the SJWs, make it that Angel is a gentle, sweet, but sensitive guy so he wants to toughen up, then serves in war. It goes wrong and he goes back home and picks up a drug habit. He then realizes he's a gay man and that's the last straw - for him to prove himself manly to cover his gayness and make a quick buck for his drug habit, he joins the mob.


Us people who have the balls to criticize have the ideas. Viv should listen.

That's the weirdest part, Angel is supposed to be from like a famous mob family (least by his old lore), hence his experience with the criminal side off things. But, in the show that's barely brought up, frankly shouldn't his entire mob family be higher than Valentino? Sure, the guy is buddies with Vox and Velvett, but doesn't seem like Vox cares much for Val's side of the business, and if Angel's entire mob family is from the 30's era, shouldn't they have been calling more shots and even considering Vox and Val as ones who answer to them?

 

[Strawberry Kiwi Propel]

That's the weirdest part, Angel is supposed to be from like a famous mob family (least by his old lore), hence his experience with the criminal side off things. But, in the show that's barely brought up, frankly shouldn't his entire mob family be higher than Valentino? Sure, the guy is buddies with Vox and Velvett, but doesn't seem like Vox cares much for Val's side of the business, and if Angel's entire mob family is from the 30's era, shouldn't they have been calling more shots and even considering Vox and Val as ones who answer to them?

As I brought up before, his siblings made cameos in the latter half Season One and his usage of Tommy Guns might suggest that the mob is still part of his character, but I don't recall anyone on the staff confirming that. Even though it wasn't outright stated in the pilot itself, you can hear the underlined gangster aspect of his character presented through Michael's performance. Initially, I was thinking comparing "I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF YOU"(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fGO1RjnprUc) to "POISON" as evidence towards the "Michael can sing" defense is like comparing apples and oranges, but on second thought, it perfectly's in line to "SLUTTY SPIDER POLKA POP"(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_OY9OYaMxog&pp=ygUPI2dvb3Nld29yeG11c2lj), Angel's theme Gooseworx made in 2016. SSPP captures what Angel originally was, someone who presents himself as a whore, but in reality, he's a wildcard of a rascal out causing mischief for his personal satisfaction all without letting anyone stand by his way. Michael executes those traits exceptionally. Whenever he acts sexy, there's more to his delivery beyond "I'm GaY". Blake tries WAY too hard to make him sound sexy, as that's all there is to the Series depiction of the character. Not only that, he tries too hard to make him sound like a dick whenever they do attempt to write him as one, since that's far and in between, versus Michael, who naturally has that charisma, almost as if he's talking without a script.

 

[Gondolindrim]

I'd say Chaz, Glitz+Glam, Vassago and emberlynn are the only cases of "literally made just to sell merch" since they seem specifically designed to appear pretty in their introduction episode and nothing else.

Out of all those, I genuinely don't see anyone buying Chaz merch. The gross sharkman whose dialogue is 90% talking about cum isn't very marketable.

 

[Rakdos92]

Series Charlie being regarded as "Mary Sue" isn't because she doesn't have flaws, the flaws are there, it's just that she doesn't necessarily get called out on it, or to be more specific, doesn't reflect on how the consequences of her actions as a means to develop as a character as the show paints her as in the right, regardless of how little she earned it. Characterization wise, Pilot Charlie is optimistic but a realist when it ultimately comes down to it

Compared to Series Charlie who legitimately thinks life is Sunshine and Rainbows, and if anything inconveniences that ideology, she's gets overly emotional towards people who had the audacity to upset her.

And now I kinda want to see a fanfic where PilotCharlie and SeriesCharlie are twins, with the former serving as a moderating influence on the latter.

I can already see the meeting at the Embassy play out, it'd starts with PilotCharlie laying out the timetable of this business before adding a "surprise topic" to the end and SerialCharlie vibrating excitely in place. There's a brief fastforward with Adam being visibly bored while discussing whatever is being discussed at that sorta meeting, then he perks up at the "surprise topic" (because he's kinda hoping the surprise will be a twins strip show) only to be disappointed when it's the Charlie duo launching a musical number on the Happy Hotel. He's not dismissing it out of hand because PilotCharlie conceded this is unchartered territory and they might very well fail, but they will try anyway. But Adam is still sceptical and the extermination is still happening six months ahead of schedule.

Mostly I just want to make a running gag about PilotCharlie and SeriesCharlie having the same name and everyone wondering how people don't get confused.

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

If Vivianne browsed the farms, I wonder (other than sneed harder than when Donald Trump winning/being inaugurated) which ideas would she add to her show?

Let's be realistic, no Left Hand of God (lol) like I proposed, no redesigns (as much as I thought it would be kickass - it would make hell more intimidating) or whatever. Would she have the ovaries to perhaps improve the show and go forward with "Season 2 of HB sucked, let's say this was a fever dream or Blitz or Stolas telling lies at their judgement" and instead having things akin to the pilots? And which additions could be added?
No idea how to "fix" Hazbin, maybe Alastor being a dipshit and telling lies along Sir Pentious? Vox spreading propaganda? Would love to see how much of a beast a "pilot Chadam" would have been. We know Lute wasn't fucking around.