Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[01169]

The way I see it is that it'll play out differently. Eurocrats will keep up their delusions, but many European leaderships, AKA people that actually have a say on what's gonna happen, will have a wake-up call.

Overall a rather optimistic post but I agree with most of it.

However you shouldn't underestimate the might of the Eurocratic system. It's not that single leaders are powerful. But the whole machine certainly is. That's why changing a few heads won't matter much. It's a swamp and so many little pieces work together (not all of them even aware I'm sure).

On the other hand I also wouldn't put too much weight on fucking tweets from von der Leyen et al. It's virtue signalling 101.

 

[Tub of Absinthe]

Why does it have to be nuked?

Precisely because it's a nice place with a predominantly white population. Can't have that in Europe now can we?

 

[Easterling]

I'm genuinely fascinated by what the fuck European leaders believe they can do at this point? The entire establishment, regime media and various shit-lib talking heads have all proved to me that they are living in fantasy as I have not seen a single argument regarding this issue outside of reaffirming the post WW2 liberal creation myth. Europe is done with its military venture, none of the countries considered "big players" have the resources to go on, the moral syphilis that's embedded in these societies has seen to it that welfare for third worlders takes precedent over industry or even border integrity.

The British army in its current state is done, it does not have the equipment to support its well trained but outnumber infantry core, without proper support or logistics they'd be shredded in open combat. The French funded and trained the Anne of Kiev regiment of the AFU, outside of issues with desertions in France, AFU corruption back home saw the entire regiment cannibalised of equipment and sent to the front to be Mauled by the Bear without any of the equipment it had been specially trained to use. The entire war has exposed the fact that just because something was manufactured in Europe during the cold war, does not make it immune from burning on the plains of Donbass. None of them have the industrial capacity to match the demand for any of the losses either.

An Autistic comparison to use would be that of 40k orks, a term used by Ukies but embraced by Rus chads. You guys are like the Orks of 40k but not in the ways shit-libs or Banderites say. They underestimate you constantly, dismissing you as backwards and primitive which has lead to their downfall over and over again.

 

[Lukie]

However you shouldn't underestimate the might of the Eurocratic system. It's not that single leaders are powerful. But the whole machine certainly is. That's why changing a few heads won't matter much. It's a swamp and so many little pieces work together (not all of them even aware I'm sure).

On the other hand I also wouldn't put too much weight on fucking tweets from von der Leyen et al. It's virtue signalling 101.

When it comes to Europe. The only way out is through.

Without sounding too glowie. The Tower of Babel must fall and the foxes need to be snared.

 

[Overly Serious]

I don't share the euphoria of much of this thread. I'm not revelling in what I think is a general joy in Zelensky getting blown out of the water by Trump and Vance. And I don't think this is really because of Zelensky not wearing a suit. Musk dresses like a Silicon Valley "Cloud Architect" circa 2010 and Arab leaders routinely turn up to the White House in big robe blanket things and nobody bats an eye. Of course Zelensky is White and Americans being simple creatures think White is a culture and that Ukranians are therefore sharing that same culture and its norms with Americans because of skin colour. Someone will make some comment about it being different occasions but I reject the idea that international affairs are being determined on whether foreign leaders dress how Trump tells them to dress or not. And if it really were the case that it were about how Zelensky dresses then Trump would be exactly the petty boor that his opponents make him out to be. Of course it's not about the suit. Trump is a master of theatre. He just wants Zelensky to wear a suit to show how Trump is more special than other world leaders and to provide a better way to cast Zelensky as ungrateful and disrespectful that isn't "he refused to give up Ukraine's wealth without some safety guarantees," because the latter plays worse for Trump.

But it's a pretty reasonable position. In one of the few moments in that debacle where Zelensky managed to reply, he challenged Trump's idea that Ukraine would be safe just by the mere presence of US business by pointing out "before 2014, we had ten major US corporations with extensive business in Ukraine and Russia still invaded". He is correct. And if I were leader of Ukraine I would not want to give up 50% of our mineral rights on a handshake and a "no, we wont sign anything to protect you but trust us". It's the US fucking A. You'd be mad to trust them. This was their game plan from the start.

I think Trump is probably right in that this war wouldn't have started under his tenure. I said myself before the 2020 elections that if Biden won there would be war in Ukraine within around a year after. Biden and the globohomo lapdogs in Western Europe pushed this. But Trump has inherited and is attempting to carry out the end stage part of Ukraine's vivisection. The only difference is that unlike the Biden administration Trump has the realism to know that the original timescale and plan is fucked and if he's going to claw back gains for the USA it needs to be now. So he's speedrunning the vivisection of the country and abandoning the part of the plan where Russia is chastised and weakened through the war. He's trying to get the USA out ahead. Which is great for the USA (if he pulls it off, it's still up in the air). But really sucks for Ukraine.

Frankly the actual citizens of Ukraine would for the most part (excepting the Nazis) be better off under Russia. If it were remotely politically tenable (it isn't), the best thing Zelensky could do at this point would be to stand down the Ukranian army and just let Russia roll over the country. That would screw over the US plutocrats who want to pillage it from West to East, it would screw over Russia which doesn't actually want all of Ukraine and would inherit a huge mess it would have to fix. And ultimately large parts would become part of Russia which is honestly better than still being Ukraine but a vassal of the USA.

Trump is fuming because Zelensky has screwed over whatever dubious proto-deals Trump has been trying to make with Russia. Kiev is supposed to be America's lapdog and it's just run off its leash. I actually do find this part funny in a dark way. The USA has been writing blank cheques for Kiev on a nod and a wink and a "you'll scratch our back when the time comes" and Kiev has just said no when the time has come. America should have got everything in writing in advance. The funny part being that this is what Zelensky is now trying to get from America: "we'll sign, but you sign too".

I would not trust the USA as far as I could dig it up and throw it. Z-man would probably find a CIA bullet in his head but Ukraine should negotiate with Russia directly. Europe should call an emergency meeting and figure out how to back him in what ways they are able. The part Trump is right about which Nuland and the Neocons (band name patented) were not, is that the West cannot win this war against Russia. Not without it ending in nuclear conflagration. And that the idea of isolating and economically collapsing Russian and then seeding it with ethnic conflicts is also dead in the water. Trump is right about that. The Europoor leaders need to accept those things too. The critical thing being that if they did, they have a better bargaining position than the USA. All they have to do is give up on the globohomo aims and suddenly they can offer both Ukraine and Russia more than the USA can and thus are in a better negotiating position. They are natural trade partners of Russia which can supply them the cheap energy their industry needs and there's a natural exchange of manufactured goods, travel and commerce. Russia doesn't want to occupy the whole of Ukraine - it would cost Russia more than it gains to do so! So it has incentive to leave Ukraine mostly intact so long as it gets its guarantees of neutrality. Which Europe is more able to provide than the USA because the USA cannot wage war in Ukraine without European support due to geography.

Zelensky has an impossible opportunity here which is to cut the USA out of the loop and negotiate with Russia directly with the backing of European leaders. But I say impossible because two things would have ot happen. He would have to face down the Banderites in his own country. The Ukranian people would probably back him but his life would be in danger. Secondly, European leaders would have to step down from their Russophobia and do what is in the interest of their citizens rather than their globohomo cabal. It's probably the second that is most impossible.

But if all this has been a long post, a lot of it comes down to re-purposing an old joke: "When Ukraine owes you a million dollars, Ukraine has a problem. When Ukraine owes you two-hundred billion dollars, you have a problem." The USA is the one with the problem. Trump is trying to collect and he can't. No wonder he is spitting feathers right now. This isn't about a fucking suit.

 

[01169]

lol, you sound like my wife, who asks me how to land an airplane with 20kts crosswind, and expects me to explain it in a max 2 minutes executive summary.

For which she zones out after a minute.

 

[Easterling]

This isn't about a fucking suit

Look at it this way right, both leaders are former media personalities, Trump recognises that Clownsky is wearing a costume that has been provided by a behind the scenes stage manager.

 

[01169]

It just shows that Trump and Vance are shitposters at heart. At least to some degree. Because everyone realizes the shtick of Zelensky and his weird outfit. But no one mentions it because of the message they are supposed to send to the world. Well Trump didn't give a fuck and he had a little laugh on top of it.

"He's all dressed up." Dude is such a savage. I think many people have forgotten how he mopped the floor with his opponents when running in 2016. And that isn't something you can learn or have others write up for you. That's just natural talent.

 

[Overly Serious]

Look at it this way right, both leaders are former media personalities, Trump recognises that Clownsky is wearing a costume that has been provided by a behind the scenes stage manager.

It may be so. My dig is against anyone who actually believes this is about a suit and doesn't recognize its about media presentation. Which surprisingly there are examples of in this very thread. I think because it's one more thing they can pin on Zelensky for not doing right.

I don't know much about Ukranian culture. I believe Z-man has said something about he wears military dress to show solidarity with the soldiers. Trump just wants to make him dress differently as a way to say "dance puppet" and tweet out "Zelensky didn't wear a suit for Biden or the UN, but he wears one for me."

What's interesting to me about this aspect is that it might prove to be one of Trump's rare missteps in the media. Because I don't see normies going along with it, even who usually might. The Daily Mail which is a mildly Right Wing organ and Britain's biggest selling newspaper, has a big headline on their site about how the on-camera dispute was planned. I don't really think that's in question - I said exactly that from my own observations some pages back. There is zero chance an experienced negotiator like Trump didn't go into that press conference knowing exactly what outcome he wanted. And an experienced man like Trump could have smoothed things over easily if he chose. No, the interesting thing is that mass media is picking up on it too. I sometimes use the comments section on the Daily Mail as one of my barometers for public perception because whilst you're selecting for people who bother to comment online the readership is largely the general public perception as much as anything is. After the Southport murders and the protests, about Brexit, about Trump and about election interference or J6, they're more inline with what KiwiFarms posters often say and think than the Establishment. On the stories about this press conference, wearing suits, etc. they're overwhelmingly critical of Trump and calling this theatre. This is atypical.

 

[TexWiller]

My dig is against anyone who actually believes this is about a suit and doesn't recognize its about media presentation

this is about the fact the goblin clearly stated he doesnt want peace or a ceasefire, but he >wants< full support from the US to win the war against russia, which Trump said he doesnt want to do since day 1 of his administration.

That is why he was thrown out of the white house. the suit, together with his attitude and bad manners, is a contributing factor as the goblin was told to wear a suit, and he disregarded, like a pedantic child.

i dont know if other heads of state showed up at the WH in robes or fatigues. but the owner of the house now is trump and he makes the rules. if you are so dumb and arrogant that you think you can ignore them, you only deserve to be thrown out. if the goblin didnt want to comply with the house rules, he still had the choice to fuck off somewhere else.

 

[Special spoonie]

The Daily Mail which is a mildly Right Wing organ and Britain's biggest selling newspaper, has a big headline on their site about how the on-camera dispute was planned. I don't really think that's in question - I said exactly that from my own observations some pages back. There is zero chance an experienced negotiator like Trump didn't go into that press conference knowing exactly what outcome he wanted. And an experienced man like Trump could have smoothed things over easily if he chose. No, the interesting thing is that mass media is picking up on it too. I sometimes use the comments section on the Daily Mail as one of my barometers for public perception because whilst you're selecting for people who bother to comment online the readership is largely the general public perception as much as anything is. After the Southport murders and the protests, about Brexit, about Trump and about election interference or J6, they're more inline with what KiwiFarms posters often say and think than the Establishment. On the stories about this press conference, wearing suits, etc. they're overwhelmingly critical of Trump and calling this theatre. This is atypical.

The Dailymail itself were condeming the Southport riots, parroting Starmer lines about the mystical far right “thugs”. The DailyMail got captured somewhere along the way. TDS is rampant in the UK amongst both ends of the political spectrum. I would ignore what our Britbong media say.

 

[Mr Bunny]

i dont know if other heads of state showed up at the WH in robes

The Saudis do, but those are their formal attire that they wear even back home so they're an exception.

The Dailymail itself were condeming the Southport riots, parroting Starmer lines about the mystical far right “thugs”. The DailyMail got captured somewhere along the way. TDS is rampant in the UK amongst both ends of the political spectrum. I would ignore what our Britbong media say.

I think he was talking about the comments that you find under a Dailymail article not the articles themselves.

 

[God's Own Sling]

Does Zelensky not have an interpreter on hand for meetings like this? I haven't heard the man speak very much (his grating cokehead vocal fry isn't exactly my idea of auditory heaven), but it makes me wonder. His grasp on English seems to be okay, but probably not strong enough to grasp nuance, sarcasm, metaphor etc - the "all dressed up today" comment probably went over his head, and he didn't realise he just got roasted infront of the entire planet. There are parts of the video where Trump is talking and Z-man has the "I have no idea what he's talking about" look on his face, and Trump is perfectly cogent when he wants to be.

 

[Dr. Livesey]

My dig is against anyone who actually believes this is about a suit

Literally zero people in this thread think so, you may confuse us with our lovely neighbors

Does Zelensky not have an interpreter on hand for meetings like this?

He does and he had him on that meeting (behind him, in a suit), he asked him couple times to translate some of journalists questions. But if the whole conversation he spoke through an interpriter - this fight might be less of an embarassment. His interpriter would not be able to interrupt and speak over us president.

edit to avoid doubleposting

 

[Slav Power]

Overall a rather optimistic post but I agree with most of it.

However you shouldn't underestimate the might of the Eurocratic system. It's not that single leaders are powerful. But the whole machine certainly is. That's why changing a few heads won't matter much. It's a swamp and so many little pieces work together (not all of them even aware I'm sure).

On the other hand I also wouldn't put too much weight on fucking tweets from von der Leyen et al. It's virtue signalling 101.

Pretty much all of the aid Europe gave to Ukraine was virtue signalling. If you were to believe the crap the media here has been selling to people, you'd think we were liquidating our military to help them, but in reality it was just an excuse to offload older equipment to Ukraine while we bought new shiny toys from the US. We gave Ukraine F-16's, we bought F-35's from the US. We gave MSBS' to Ukraine, we also gave MSBS' to border patrol soldiers to shoot shitskins.

It's why I believe there will be a reality check and most European leaders will tell Zelensky to fuck off once he demands for all of Europe to give him everything they can. They never planned to do so in the first place, and only used this "military aid" deal as an excuse to modernize their own equipment. Don't forget that even with the current government Poland still does shit against what the EU might want, like the whole migrant crisis. Eurocrats would want us to let them in with no background checks, but our government just went "we're just gonna kill 'em" and green lit the use of lethal force. If they try to pull some asinine demand to liquidate our military to fight le Putler you know there will be a resounding "fuck off lmfao" coming from us, and from many other European countries.

 

[DefinitelyNotMe]

The suit thing is obviously a joke that is very easy to point and laugh at. If you want to dig and nitpick, you can say that Zelensky is larping as a soldier for the press in priority rather than making any kind of deals.
The whole idea of the deal, I think, was to let American workers on Ukraine work there. Workers, not soldiers. Because Russia doesn't want foreign soldiers staying in Ukraine and made it obviously clear. Russia also wouldn't want to kill US citizens that are just contract workers or damage American infrastructure, cause it will increase tension between Russia and US.
I don't think Trump wanted to say that, because that would ment that people that he will send would basically be a human buffer.
But Z being a retard just keeps his thing to get a blank check. In my vision if he truly wanted to end the war he would crawl on the floor there just to stop bullets flying.

 

[Overly Serious]

this is about the fact the goblin clearly stated he doesnt want peace or a ceasefire, but he >wants< full support from the US to win the war against russia, which Trump said he doesnt want to do since day 1 of his administration.

That is why he was thrown out of the white house. the suit, together with his attitude and bad manners, is a contributing factor as the goblin was told to wear a suit, and he disregarded, like a pedantic child.

i dont know if other heads of state showed up at the WH in robes or fatigues. but the owner of the house now is trump and he makes the rules. if you are so dumb and arrogant that you think you can ignore them, you only deserve to be thrown out. if the goblin didnt want to comply with the house rules, he still had the choice to fuck off somewhere else.

It's been "Trump's house" for four years previous to now, and I don't recall him ever demanding Mohammed bin Salman wear a suit and tie. But then as I already observed, Americans conflate race and culture all the time and will say "this person is brown, he has a different culture" and here will think "Zelensky is pale. His culture must be our culture". Simple creatures. I repeat, it's not about a suit, it's about defiance. Trump told Zelensky how to dress and Zelensky refused. Only an idiot doesn't think it's a political stunt and power play by Trump. And I've read enough of your posts to know you're not an idiot.

The Dailymail itself were condeming the Southport riots, parroting Starmer lines about the mystical far right “thugs”. The DailyMail got captured somewhere along the way. TDS is rampant in the UK amongst both ends of the political spectrum. I would ignore what our Britbong media say.

@Mr Bunny has already pointed it out. I was explicitly discussing the comments on stories. Even when the Daily Mail carries water for things like the police behaviour against the Southport protestors, the comments are filled with viewpoints that would more typically align with Kiwifarms than the Establishment narrative. And upvoting massively backing those comments up as well. But on this, not only the Daily Mail itself is writing articles about how the falling out was engineered by the Trump camp, but the comments are heavily that way too. This is a rare misstep from Trump. American friends are saying the same as well, one of whom is certainly usually a Trump supporter. Trump frequently offends his opponents. It's rare he does something his supporters disapprove of.


This thread has suddenly become something of a bubble on this topic. And I may also be misleading myself but it seems to me that it's the American voices that are rallying the loudest on this. Russian voices more conspicuous by their absence. Perhaps because they don't see Trump as some hard break from the Biden administration like the domestic audience does, but rather a continuation of America's engineering this war, propping up Kiev with long-term plans to exploit Ukraine's natural resources in return. That Zelensky is going off-script when its time to collect is I think playing better with the rest of the world than in America, where many USAians didn't see Kiev government as just a proxy for American interests and so think Kiev is obliged to give up what America wants it to in return for America's generosity. Whereas many of us (and I feel this should include people here given how much we've all damned the Biden administration and predecessors for causing this), view it as America started this and if America makes a fool of itself and leaves with nothing at the end, that's justice for their crimes.


There's a prevailing attitude from American posters which I'll simplify as "how dare this ungrateful man not show us respect and sign our deal". Whereas I, and I hope at least some others, look from the outside and say "you backed a coup and then sweet-talked an entire country into a devastating war with promises of wealth and all the support it would take." America promised sanctions would bring Russia to its knees, that it would supply weapons as needed to fight the Russian bear, that it would back Kiev all the way. And now when the Russian bear turns out to be a lot tougher than the Neocons thought, the USA wants to bail. It wants its mineral cake and eat it?" Well frankly, FUCK the USA. It started this, it promised the Ukranians the moon and security and Russia fucking kicked them in the balls and now the USA is saying "be grateful. Give us wealth.". Fuck. That. Shit.

I've been a critic of Zelensky often enough and I've most certainly raged against the people in Kiev leading their country down this destructive path. But Zelensky is 100% right to not take a pat on the back in exchange for control of his country's mineral wealth. Which is what this would mean. If the Ukranians haven't learned by this point not to trust the word of America and Bongland, they would have to be the dumbest people on the planet. Zelensky pointed out that the fact they had major US corporations doing business in Ukraine didn't stop the invasion last time, why should it this? That's a fair point. Why trust the USA?

 

[Easterling]

show solidarity with the soldiers

Not sending them into meat grinders would be a better gesture but I get where your coming from

 

[Overly Serious]

Does Zelensky not have an interpreter on hand for meetings like this? I haven't heard the man speak very much (his grating cokehead vocal fry isn't exactly my idea of auditory heaven), but it makes me wonder. His grasp on English seems to be okay, but probably not strong enough to grasp nuance, sarcasm, metaphor etc - the "all dressed up today" comment probably went over his head, and he didn't realise he just got roasted infront of the entire planet. There are parts of the video where Trump is talking and Z-man has the "I have no idea what he's talking about" look on his face, and Trump is perfectly cogent when he wants to be.

I don't think there was a language issue. No, the communication breakdown was in the mode of discussion. JD Vance blasted Zelensky for about a minute at the end of which Zelensky thought he was going to reply. He started off with "well there are a lot of questions you just asked..." and thought he was going to go through them and reply. At which point Trump cut him off and made clear this wasn't a debate. It was a nod and accept.

Ukranians have fuck all left after three years of war against Russian, but amazingly it seems they still have their pride.

 

[Susanna]

It's been "Trump's house" for four years previous to now, and I don't recall him ever demanding Mohammed bin Salman wear a suit and tie. But then as I already observed, Americans conflate race and culture all the time and will say "this person is brown, he has a different culture" and here will think "Zelensky is pale. His culture must be our culture". Simple creatures. I repeat, it's not about a suit, it's about defiance. Trump told Zelensky how to dress and Zelensky refused. Only an idiot doesn't think it's a political stunt and power play by Trump. And I've read enough of your posts to know you're not an idiot.

Those robes the Saudis wear are formal wear. They show respect for the person they’re meeting. Formal wear in Ukraine is a suit, so by showing up in a tracksuit Zelensky isn’t showing that same respect. Trump chose not to buy into the retarded ”I’m too busy being at war to dress appropriately” campaign, that’s all it is. If Trump telling Zelensky how to dress was a power play, it was one directed at his European vassals, not at Zelensky. Ie ”Yeah he disrespects all of you by dressing like a retard for your meetings, but I’m important enough that for once he dressed appropriately”.