Warhammer 40k

[Total Norman Death]

Are scout marines a thing in horus herasy, and are there primeris scouts?

Scouts are a thing and there are recon marines, which serve a similar purpose but have power armor. There are also seekers who are hit squads and their 40k equivalent would be Sternguard. White Scars have a unit of outflanking, scout armor, lighting claw scouts. As much as its 20+ space marine factions and a handful of non marines, each legion does have a lot of variety.

For primaris, they recently updated the traditional scout kit, and they loot pretty good. However, the scout role has really passed to the reivers, part of the first wave of primaris and they have a lighter power armor that makes it look like they're wearing fucking sneakers. There are some newer versions of them with sniper rifles and camo cloaks as well.

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

Firstly, Warhammer 40k as a game system, aesthetic, and anything else died during the transition to 8th.

I can't speak for the game system but judging purely off the codex art 8th edition codices were the last time they looked good. The art is just the 7th edition artwork but trimmed down the borders to give a more picture frame look with a unique trim for each factions. I also really liked the cover on the index books how Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos got their own skull to kind of represent themselves.

Where I think the aesthetic really died was right after 8th edition when they changed the logo to be brighter instead of the dark hard marbled look of the old logo. Arguably the older artwork had more color because it had greater contrast. They popped a lot more. The art these days all looks washed out and faded. I think it'd faded because it's cheaper to not draw as much detail. Old covers really focused on the character. Modern covers are zoomed out on the scene where no one character has that great detail. And I actually hate that there are no borders on the covers either. I hate it on trading cards too but I really feel that the frame of an art piece is just as much a part of the art.

Unpopular opinion, but really if GW wants to fix the game, they'd need some kind of major overhaul. Be it alternate activation, a switch to d12s to allow a greater range of results, or flat out making OPR with force organization and campaign rules.

I don't think this is totally unpopular. Everyone seems to want a major overhaul, the question is which way to go. Some want to go back to oldhammer, others want to go in a totally new direction a la OPR. At the very least I think people are ready for an alternating activations system. It's just a cleaner way to play that eliminates all the downtime of waiting for you opponent to play solo-hammer before it's your turn. I feel like much of the issues with cover can also be alleviated with A.A. since you can do things like baiting activations, or stalling. A.A. has its own issues like making activation count king, but I still consider it an improvement. Killteam does A.A. just fine so I don't see why it can't be done in 40k.

Moving to a whole new dice might be more than people are ready for. Getting a shit ton of d6s is easy. This is necessary for when I disembark my breacher team and roll 30 dice against your intercessors. Good luck getting d12s or any other RPG dice in quantity. While I don't disagree that a wider range of values would help, I think GW would also have to taken the responsibility of making enough bulk dice for everyone until the market catches up. They can't even make enough model kits, or books, or anything for their customers. I don't trust them to make enough d12s for everyone. Then we'd have to decide what is actually the correct scale for the game. You want a large enough scale that you can make basic infantry, space marines, and tanks feel significantly different, but not so wide spread where the difference between an 8 and a 7 is practically nothing.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Trench Crusade related.

Battletech has "leaked" their next crowdfunder. It's Trench Crusade but with mechs. Called Battletech Gothic.

This being a "leak" leaves some questions. It's not on their official social medias. I've seen claims they confirmed it on discord. If it's April fools joke, it's a well produced one.

 

[p1138]

Moving to a whole new dice might be more than people are ready for. Getting a shit ton of d6s is easy. This is necessary for when I disembark my breacher team and roll 30 dice against your intercessors. Good luck getting d12s or any other RPG dice in quantity. While I don't disagree that a wider range of values would help, I think GW would also have to taken the responsibility of making enough bulk dice for everyone until the market catches up. They can't even make enough model kits, or books, or anything for their customers. I don't trust them to make enough d12s for everyone. Then we'd have to decide what is actually the correct scale for the game. You want a large enough scale that you can make basic infantry, space marines, and tanks feel significantly different, but not so wide spread where the difference between an 8 and a 7 is practically nothing.

Switching to d10s would be fine, companies already produce them in bulk for the other systems that use them. d20s would be fine as well, but rolling a pile of d20s at a time is annoying(they want to keep rolling even within a dice tray instead of coming to a stop).

You're right that GW can't keep up with manufacturing of minis, but their dice are made in china(the dice cubes, and their overpriced faction dice)

If Chessex, Koplow, Wizkids, etc. had 6 months notice it wouldn't be a big deal for them to have plenty of product available without GW needing to do much beyond putting d10s in the basic starter set. You can already buy 100 packs of d4, d12, etc. pretty easily if you just look in the right places https://www.dicegamedepot.com/polyhedral-dice-in-bulk/ Also by having a wider range to use on the die, you wouldn't need as many to make up for lack of variation like the existing system having a unit of ork boyz rolling 30 dice hitting on 5s to keep them different enough from space marines hitting on 3s. Or only being able to represent saves on a 2-6 leading to weird shit like infantry getting the same save as a fucking tank and the only real variation being the wound roll(or adding an invul, or FNP, etc which is just extra layers to add differentiation).

 

[East_Clintwood]

What did they change?

In the original lore Grimnar and the Wolves are pissed when the Inquisition starts rounding up the defenders of Armageddon for sterilization/cleansing to hide what happened, but the Wolves realise that stating a civil war by attacking the Inquisition would doom Armageddon anyway.

In the newer months of shame shit the Wolves don't just refuse to take part but actively take steps to cockblock the Inquisition by helping Imperial Guard troopships escape Armageddon and the Inquisition responds by attacking the Wolves, who eventually fight back, and the entire thing ends with the inquisition along with one of their tame SM chapters laying siege to Fenris.

The entire thing is fucking retarded because there's no way if you look at what happened it wouldn't have spiralled into Heresy 2: Electric Boogaloo. The Inquisition attacked a First Founding chapters home planet, threatening to Excommunicatus them, meanwhile the Wolves killed almost an entire Brotherhood's worth of Grey Knights including murdering a Grand Master in cold blood, along with destroying multiple irreplaceable ships including a 10,000 year old Battle barge of the FIrst Brotherhood.

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

I completely agree with you. Whenever people mention 7th I immediately remember the absolutely insane detachment and formations some factions had and it being the beginning of codex creep.

HOWEVER

Compared to what came next it was fucking blissful.

I'm not sure if anyone remembers but right near the end of 7th Space Marines got the most absurd psychic discipline. One of the powers let the player redeploy terrain regardless of what SM units were inside, this wasn't during the deployment phase but during the actual game itself. It effectively turned everything into drop pods, I didn't play another game until 8th because of how insane that was.
I also felt really bad for Ork players since the only formation they got was completely neutered when the Ghazkull supplement was re released.

 

[MG-34]

Trench Crusade related.

Battletech has "leaked" their next crowdfunder. It's Trench Crusade but with mechs. Called Battletech Gothic.

View attachment 7133288

This being a "leak" leaves some questions. It's not on their official social medias. I've seen claims they confirmed it on discord. If it's April fools joke, it's a well produced one.

I went on the battletech subreddit recently to see what is going on in tabletop, do they just have that dumb tranny flag year round now?

 

[Total Norman Death]

do they just have that dumb tranny flag year round now?

Yes. Almost every single discord community server I've seen for X mod or game has the tranny overlay and has had it for years at this point. Nerd communities will probably be one of the last groups to fold on it.

 

[isalaide]

Yes. Almost every single discord community server I've seen for X mod or game has the tranny overlay and has had it for years at this point. Nerd communities will probably be one of the last groups to fold on it.

Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil and Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am. Nothing ever changes except the weirdos now have a flag.

The original ref of the GSFs https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/

 

[isalaide]

Some want to go back to oldhammer

RETVRN TO THIRD

 

[Swiss46]

RETVRN TO THIRD

Unironically building some third armies at the moment from ebay auctions and Facebook deals as I go along

 

[Muad'Dick]

RETVRN TO THIRD

We returned to RT last year. As God intended with a GM, mobs on the table and using random encounters/events. Honestly the best tabletop gaming experience I've had since I played it the first time around.

Are rose-tinted goggles involved? Probably. But its the most fun I've had with anything 40K related since the beginning of 8th.

 

[HTTP Error 404]

My wife and I both gagged after seeing that girls face front and center on every single post (show off the miniatures, not your horse face), but the vamp.artistry account has some sick stuff, thanks a lot!

it's literally that meme about
Guys taking a photo of a thing: Thing
Girls taking a photo of a thing: Thing, blocked mostly by girl attempting to look good for the camera in front of it

heh.

I have an FDM printer and I actually wish I had a 20w laser cutter. There are LOTS of very cheap and even free MDF lasercut templates online and a whole board will cost you ~$20 in MDF. Apparently this isn't the stone age and you can get lasercutters pretty cheap now too. Unfortunately you need a shed with high ventilation for the wood smoke to be pulled out of it, but I may see if someone in my local scene doesn't either own one or is willing to split cost on one if it gets everybody some better terrain.

MDF terrain certainly looks worse right off the cutter of course, but it is easy to file and cut wood and gaps are easy to fill with wood glue, then you can step up the appearance considerably through standard terrain scratch building techniques and get a final result that is even higher than anything you could reasonably resin print at a fraction of the costs.

I've been seriously thinking about MDF lately, as a few youtubers have been sponsored by a MDF terrain and mini case company that looked neat as hell. I wonder how expensive a 20w laser cutter for crafting would be?

 

[ZMOT]

An exchange I fixed the power issue you think a blacksmith would know how to do a bit of electrical but now he's afraid of getting electrocuted which is odd because he messed around with hot metal all day.

hot metal is simple, you just bash it.
appeasing the angry spirit in your copper wires tho...

Also, concerning the Goobertown hobbies question.

eh, I don't mind him. looks like the average nerd you used to see plenty of in nerd spaces like wargaming, ttrpg etc., I certainly don't expect some steely-eyed self-assured gigachad pushing plastic around for hours.
he also strikes me more (like some others) being more into the hobby and "community" if you will than the game itself. doesn't help that nu-hammer is seemingly getting worse "to play" every edition, quite a few people I know don't look like they even have fun playing it.

I don't think this is totally unpopular. Everyone seems to want a major overhaul, the question is which way to go.

the minecraft dilemma. 10 people have 20 opinion why the game sucks and in which direction it should go. the only winning move is not to change anything.

however, warhammer is somewhat unique that people choke on the GW dick to a frightening degree. the minecraft autists eventually said fuck it and modded the fuck out of it themselves to get what they want. even 5e tards who literally play nothing else homebrew the fuck out of the game (so they can at least claim to still play "dnd"). warhammer needs to be played with the latest edition and every rule change, you're not allowed to deviate even an inch. no older edition, no other games with the same fucking models and the same fucking lore. it's mindboggling.

 

[Total Norman Death]

warhammer needs to be played with the latest edition and every rule change

This seems to be changing, at least in non GW spaces. Oldhammer (anything before 7th/8th at this point) players seem to be popping up more and more.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Is there any lore you hate or is retarded, or any common interpretations you find dumb? Supposedly space marines are all kidnapped orphans and behave like emotionless golums, Which is not how I saw them depicted in Space Marine (I've not played Space Marine 2) and Dawn of War. I suspect this is some "the space marines are the bad guys!" reddit type reading of the lore, but I don't know the new stuff.

One podcast said Kill Team 2024 is really popular as a safety net for those rage quitting the hobby, and people just starting out. It has a lower barrier to entry (the "game in a box" stuff I talked about a few pages back), has a shorter play time for those who can't dedicate 4 hours per game, and allows people to collect broadly instead of deeply. This got me wondering if my interest in "epic scale" games as a space, time, and money saving measure is something other people are interested in as well? I know Kiwis said Legion Imperialis is bad for this, but I'm talking about using 6-10mm to play a "standard" game of 40k, or better yet having an epic scale dedicated ruleset that can play company level games.

Speaking of which. How was Epic, and Space Marine (the epic scale game)?

 

[Snowflake Flamer]

I can't speak for the game system but judging purely off the codex art 8th edition codices were the last time they looked good. The art is just the 7th edition artwork but trimmed down the borders to give a more picture frame look with a unique trim for each factions. I also really liked the cover on the index books how Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos got their own skull to kind of represent themselves.

Where I think the aesthetic really died was right after 8th edition when they changed the logo to be brighter instead of the dark hard marbled look of the old logo. Arguably the older artwork had more color because it had greater contrast. They popped a lot more. The art these days all looks washed out and faded. I think it'd faded because it's cheaper to not draw as much detail. Old covers really focused on the character. Modern covers are zoomed out on the scene where no one character has that great detail. And I actually hate that there are no borders on the covers either. I hate it on trading cards too but I really feel that the frame of an art piece is just as much a part of the art.

I want to go into more detail on what I mean because while I see some agreeing with me I don't think my point is being understood the way I originally intended.

In Warhammer 40k 1-7th edition the art commonly promulgated for units looked like this (I'll use my old warhorse, guard, for example):



What I see with images like these, and most of the images in the codices up to 8th (albeit the transition did start late 6th early 7th) is that the art of warhammer 40k is showing you the universe of 40k, something the models themselves crudely represent. In a way its aspirational, inviting you to take your hobby skills, bits, other kits, paint skills, etc and to try to make something evocative and 40k for yourself, something unique but within the world presented. Modern 40k art simply isn't that. You see essentially promo art of the models, maybe with some slight modifications. Space Marine 2 features basically nothing that isn't a model kit! It gives the game a corporate identity where everything is just an add for a model or action figure, rather than building a mythos (ofc building anything complicated would require the lore be disseminated beyond memes ofc).

I guess my point is that the 40k aesthetic shifted from being artistic and communicating tone and themes to being an "A Christmas Story" esque drink more ovaltine bit for redditmaris.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Modern 40k art simply isn't that. You see essentially promo art of the models, maybe with some slight modifications.

Yes and no.

Something that extends to a lot of 40k in general is things have been cleaned up and professionalized. To use art as an example, the art you post is more evocative, but also rough in spots. I don't mean this as an insult. Part of the appeal of the Horus Heresy for me is that it's the only part of 40k that doesn't feel cleaned up in this way.

There's people on the internet that take this to mean the setting isn't grim dark enough. That factions like Tau and orcs provide hope and levity and there absolutely shouldn't be any.

To put it another way, people complain about GW pandering to competitive players because competitive players don't like things that are cool or fun. Instead, they demand everything be "balanced". Even if it means sucking all the soul, flavour, and creativity from the game.

 

[AncientPhosphur]

I'm curious if anyone here likes a specific faction or unit because of a story?

Krieg, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion (specifically Legion) books made me love them. Obviously a fan of the Night Lords triology. Infinite and the Divine did change my tune on necrons but only because of Trayzon.

If anything, 40k becoming effectively an esport IRL, somehow league but worse, is having a deleterious effect on games design as a whole, because smaller games think GW responds to, not creates, demand. People play 40k for the lore (ebin memez), models (overwrought or soulless nuhammer slop) or the brand, not because they really care about the high quality game design (who the fuck still uses I go you go, we solved this shit in the literal 70s).

It’s tournament fags. That’s what it boils down to. The constant rule changes and overlooking lore for WAAC fags are what’s driving the worst changes in 40k. You’ll have tournament fags literally drop massive coin and change entire armies because of rule changes trying to eek out the slightest bit of an advantage.

 

[isalaide]

Something that extends to a lot of 40k in general is things have been cleaned up and professionalized.

Yep. I think it's often not clear to the community just how profoundly the post-Chapterhouse IP cleanup affected pretty much the entire business. The art to a very real extent does inform people's visual refs for how they want Their Guys to look, and what GW needs you to want is what they sell you. Not something that third parties can make and sell you, or sell you the printer files for. They don't want you deciding you need any boneswords when they don't sell any boneswords. (Side note: the requirement for models to be modelled with the actual weapon loadout for tourney play was both completely autistic and when shackled to boneswords and certain other weapons, was the direct driver of the Chapterhouse disaster. Expecting people to have different fucking models to try out new builds of weapons on the same fucking unit is being That Fucking Guy and TOs should not have bowed to that.)

The need to nail down and protect their IP - which is the sole value of the business - required them to be pretty ruthless about community generated content, and shit that would make you want community generated content. They became Disney and Nintendo, not because Disney and Nintendo have a cultural lust to shit on fans, but because IP law (especially that nasty visual trademark stuff) demands you enforce your rights, against everyone, all the fucking time. Even if you'd rather not.

As a community of course we hate this, because particularly if like me you are old, your early time in the hobby for years was spent working on creative shit, filling in backstories, writing background, tweaking stuff, sculpting, having Cool Ideas that fitted the setting. That's restricted now in some ways. In other ways it's still fine, I still write the backgrounds and that stuff for our tournaments because I enjoy that, I insist on painting whatever retarded colour scheme appeals to me because they are My Guys and I Paid For Them, and I still build whatever fucking terrain appeals to me. But yeah overall things are much more restricted than they once were.

I can feel regret for that whilst understanding why it was done, but I do regret it, and I do regret that it has caused them to crack down on the creativity of their artists. Which has always been fantastic. The story of how John Blanche did some art of an Inquisitor, this art gave Gav Thorpe the impetus to create the Inquisitor game, and the Inquisitor prototype model for that game directly giving Dan Abnett the idea for the Eisenhorn novels, is just such a brilliant example of how creative people can spark each other off. It's really sad if that is less able to happen at GW now.