Warhammer 40k

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What did they change?
In the original lore Grimnar and the Wolves are pissed when the Inquisition starts rounding up the defenders of Armageddon for sterilization/cleansing to hide what happened, but the Wolves realise that stating a civil war by attacking the Inquisition would doom Armageddon anyway.

In the newer months of shame shit the Wolves don't just refuse to take part but actively take steps to cockblock the Inquisition by helping Imperial Guard troopships escape Armageddon and the Inquisition responds by attacking the Wolves, who eventually fight back, and the entire thing ends with the inquisition along with one of their tame SM chapters laying siege to Fenris.

The entire thing is fucking retarded because there's no way if you look at what happened it wouldn't have spiralled into Heresy 2: Electric Boogaloo. The Inquisition attacked a First Founding chapters home planet, threatening to Excommunicatus them, meanwhile the Wolves killed almost an entire Brotherhood's worth of Grey Knights including murdering a Grand Master in cold blood, along with destroying multiple irreplaceable ships including a 10,000 year old Battle barge of the FIrst Brotherhood.
 
I completely agree with you. Whenever people mention 7th I immediately remember the absolutely insane detachment and formations some factions had and it being the beginning of codex creep.

HOWEVER

Compared to what came next it was fucking blissful.
I'm not sure if anyone remembers but right near the end of 7th Space Marines got the most absurd psychic discipline. One of the powers let the player redeploy terrain regardless of what SM units were inside, this wasn't during the deployment phase but during the actual game itself. It effectively turned everything into drop pods, I didn't play another game until 8th because of how insane that was.
I also felt really bad for Ork players since the only formation they got was completely neutered when the Ghazkull supplement was re released.
 
Trench Crusade related.

Battletech has "leaked" their next crowdfunder. It's Trench Crusade but with mechs. Called Battletech Gothic.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=5J8icclv_zQView attachment 7133288

This being a "leak" leaves some questions. It's not on their official social medias. I've seen claims they confirmed it on discord. If it's April fools joke, it's a well produced one.
I went on the battletech subreddit recently to see what is going on in tabletop, do they just have that dumb tranny flag year round now?
 
Yes. Almost every single discord community server I've seen for X mod or game has the tranny overlay and has had it for years at this point. Nerd communities will probably be one of the last groups to fold on it.
Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil and Geek Social Fallacy #2: Friends Accept Me As I Am. Nothing ever changes except the weirdos now have a flag.

The original ref of the GSFs https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/
 
RETVRN TO THIRD

We returned to RT last year. As God intended with a GM, mobs on the table and using random encounters/events. Honestly the best tabletop gaming experience I've had since I played it the first time around.

Are rose-tinted goggles involved? Probably. But its the most fun I've had with anything 40K related since the beginning of 8th.
 
My wife and I both gagged after seeing that girls face front and center on every single post (show off the miniatures, not your horse face), but the vamp.artistry account has some sick stuff, thanks a lot!
it's literally that meme about
Guys taking a photo of a thing: Thing
Girls taking a photo of a thing: Thing, blocked mostly by girl attempting to look good for the camera in front of it

heh.

I have an FDM printer and I actually wish I had a 20w laser cutter. There are LOTS of very cheap and even free MDF lasercut templates online and a whole board will cost you ~$20 in MDF. Apparently this isn't the stone age and you can get lasercutters pretty cheap now too. Unfortunately you need a shed with high ventilation for the wood smoke to be pulled out of it, but I may see if someone in my local scene doesn't either own one or is willing to split cost on one if it gets everybody some better terrain.

MDF terrain certainly looks worse right off the cutter of course, but it is easy to file and cut wood and gaps are easy to fill with wood glue, then you can step up the appearance considerably through standard terrain scratch building techniques and get a final result that is even higher than anything you could reasonably resin print at a fraction of the costs.
I've been seriously thinking about MDF lately, as a few youtubers have been sponsored by a MDF terrain and mini case company that looked neat as hell. I wonder how expensive a 20w laser cutter for crafting would be?
 
An exchange I fixed the power issue you think a blacksmith would know how to do a bit of electrical but now he's afraid of getting electrocuted which is odd because he messed around with hot metal all day.
hot metal is simple, you just bash it.
appeasing the angry spirit in your copper wires tho...

Also, concerning the Goobertown hobbies question.
eh, I don't mind him. looks like the average nerd you used to see plenty of in nerd spaces like wargaming, ttrpg etc., I certainly don't expect some steely-eyed self-assured gigachad pushing plastic around for hours.
he also strikes me more (like some others) being more into the hobby and "community" if you will than the game itself. doesn't help that nu-hammer is seemingly getting worse "to play" every edition, quite a few people I know don't look like they even have fun playing it.

I don't think this is totally unpopular. Everyone seems to want a major overhaul, the question is which way to go.
the minecraft dilemma. 10 people have 20 opinion why the game sucks and in which direction it should go. the only winning move is not to change anything.

however, warhammer is somewhat unique that people choke on the GW dick to a frightening degree. the minecraft autists eventually said fuck it and modded the fuck out of it themselves to get what they want. even 5e tards who literally play nothing else homebrew the fuck out of the game (so they can at least claim to still play "dnd"). warhammer needs to be played with the latest edition and every rule change, you're not allowed to deviate even an inch. no older edition, no other games with the same fucking models and the same fucking lore. it's mindboggling.
 
Is there any lore you hate or is retarded, or any common interpretations you find dumb? Supposedly space marines are all kidnapped orphans and behave like emotionless golums, Which is not how I saw them depicted in Space Marine (I've not played Space Marine 2) and Dawn of War. I suspect this is some "the space marines are the bad guys!" reddit type reading of the lore, but I don't know the new stuff.

One podcast said Kill Team 2024 is really popular as a safety net for those rage quitting the hobby, and people just starting out. It has a lower barrier to entry (the "game in a box" stuff I talked about a few pages back), has a shorter play time for those who can't dedicate 4 hours per game, and allows people to collect broadly instead of deeply. This got me wondering if my interest in "epic scale" games as a space, time, and money saving measure is something other people are interested in as well? I know Kiwis said Legion Imperialis is bad for this, but I'm talking about using 6-10mm to play a "standard" game of 40k, or better yet having an epic scale dedicated ruleset that can play company level games.

Speaking of which. How was Epic, and Space Marine (the epic scale game)?
 
I can't speak for the game system but judging purely off the codex art 8th edition codices were the last time they looked good. The art is just the 7th edition artwork but trimmed down the borders to give a more picture frame look with a unique trim for each factions. I also really liked the cover on the index books how Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos got their own skull to kind of represent themselves.

Where I think the aesthetic really died was right after 8th edition when they changed the logo to be brighter instead of the dark hard marbled look of the old logo. Arguably the older artwork had more color because it had greater contrast. They popped a lot more. The art these days all looks washed out and faded. I think it'd faded because it's cheaper to not draw as much detail. Old covers really focused on the character. Modern covers are zoomed out on the scene where no one character has that great detail. And I actually hate that there are no borders on the covers either. I hate it on trading cards too but I really feel that the frame of an art piece is just as much a part of the art.
I want to go into more detail on what I mean because while I see some agreeing with me I don't think my point is being understood the way I originally intended.

In Warhammer 40k 1-7th edition the art commonly promulgated for units looked like this (I'll use my old warhorse, guard, for example):
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What I see with images like these, and most of the images in the codices up to 8th (albeit the transition did start late 6th early 7th) is that the art of warhammer 40k is showing you the universe of 40k, something the models themselves crudely represent. In a way its aspirational, inviting you to take your hobby skills, bits, other kits, paint skills, etc and to try to make something evocative and 40k for yourself, something unique but within the world presented. Modern 40k art simply isn't that. You see essentially promo art of the models, maybe with some slight modifications. Space Marine 2 features basically nothing that isn't a model kit! It gives the game a corporate identity where everything is just an add for a model or action figure, rather than building a mythos (ofc building anything complicated would require the lore be disseminated beyond memes ofc).

I guess my point is that the 40k aesthetic shifted from being artistic and communicating tone and themes to being an "A Christmas Story" esque drink more ovaltine bit for redditmaris.
 

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Modern 40k art simply isn't that. You see essentially promo art of the models, maybe with some slight modifications.
Yes and no.

Something that extends to a lot of 40k in general is things have been cleaned up and professionalized. To use art as an example, the art you post is more evocative, but also rough in spots. I don't mean this as an insult. Part of the appeal of the Horus Heresy for me is that it's the only part of 40k that doesn't feel cleaned up in this way.

There's people on the internet that take this to mean the setting isn't grim dark enough. That factions like Tau and orcs provide hope and levity and there absolutely shouldn't be any.

To put it another way, people complain about GW pandering to competitive players because competitive players don't like things that are cool or fun. Instead, they demand everything be "balanced". Even if it means sucking all the soul, flavour, and creativity from the game.
 
I'm curious if anyone here likes a specific faction or unit because of a story?
Krieg, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion (specifically Legion) books made me love them. Obviously a fan of the Night Lords triology. Infinite and the Divine did change my tune on necrons but only because of Trayzon.

If anything, 40k becoming effectively an esport IRL, somehow league but worse, is having a deleterious effect on games design as a whole, because smaller games think GW responds to, not creates, demand. People play 40k for the lore (ebin memez), models (overwrought or soulless nuhammer slop) or the brand, not because they really care about the high quality game design (who the fuck still uses I go you go, we solved this shit in the literal 70s).
It’s tournament fags. That’s what it boils down to. The constant rule changes and overlooking lore for WAAC fags are what’s driving the worst changes in 40k. You’ll have tournament fags literally drop massive coin and change entire armies because of rule changes trying to eek out the slightest bit of an advantage.
 
Something that extends to a lot of 40k in general is things have been cleaned up and professionalized.
Yep. I think it's often not clear to the community just how profoundly the post-Chapterhouse IP cleanup affected pretty much the entire business. The art to a very real extent does inform people's visual refs for how they want Their Guys to look, and what GW needs you to want is what they sell you. Not something that third parties can make and sell you, or sell you the printer files for. They don't want you deciding you need any boneswords when they don't sell any boneswords. (Side note: the requirement for models to be modelled with the actual weapon loadout for tourney play was both completely autistic and when shackled to boneswords and certain other weapons, was the direct driver of the Chapterhouse disaster. Expecting people to have different fucking models to try out new builds of weapons on the same fucking unit is being That Fucking Guy and TOs should not have bowed to that.)

The need to nail down and protect their IP - which is the sole value of the business - required them to be pretty ruthless about community generated content, and shit that would make you want community generated content. They became Disney and Nintendo, not because Disney and Nintendo have a cultural lust to shit on fans, but because IP law (especially that nasty visual trademark stuff) demands you enforce your rights, against everyone, all the fucking time. Even if you'd rather not.

As a community of course we hate this, because particularly if like me you are old, your early time in the hobby for years was spent working on creative shit, filling in backstories, writing background, tweaking stuff, sculpting, having Cool Ideas that fitted the setting. That's restricted now in some ways. In other ways it's still fine, I still write the backgrounds and that stuff for our tournaments because I enjoy that, I insist on painting whatever retarded colour scheme appeals to me because they are My Guys and I Paid For Them, and I still build whatever fucking terrain appeals to me. But yeah overall things are much more restricted than they once were.

I can feel regret for that whilst understanding why it was done, but I do regret it, and I do regret that it has caused them to crack down on the creativity of their artists. Which has always been fantastic. The story of how John Blanche did some art of an Inquisitor, this art gave Gav Thorpe the impetus to create the Inquisitor game, and the Inquisitor prototype model for that game directly giving Dan Abnett the idea for the Eisenhorn novels, is just such a brilliant example of how creative people can spark each other off. It's really sad if that is less able to happen at GW now.
 
It’s tournament fags. That’s what it boils down to. The constant rule changes and overlooking lore for WAAC fags are what’s driving the worst changes in 40k. You’ll have tournament fags literally drop massive coin and change entire armies because of rule changes trying to eek out the slightest bit of an advantage.

100% this. In the days of WHFB, tournaments were at an embryonic stage compared to where 40K is at now. Nerd culture wasn't full mainstream and tabletop gaming still had a lot of stigma attached to it. People already had 3-4 armies that they had put together over the years and consequently miniature sales had plateaued. You would snap up new units as and when they were released, but most people weren't out there buying a whole new army based on the changes to the "meta". Thats why GW had to hit the reset button to reinvigorate miniature sales and create Age of Sigmar.

Now that the tournament scene is established they can effectively print money by just making minor changes to rules or point values, because there are retards out there who will be prepared to put down hundreds/thousands on a new army just to remain competitive. Narrative players will get the odd scrap from the table to keep that corner of the hobby interested, but the game is clearly aimed at the tournament scene now. 40K is a successful IP, but in the grand scheme of things it is still fairly niche, and GW is first and foremost a miniatures company. This is why you have pricing based on a unit's perceived effectiveness, rules changes to new units almost on the day the physical models drop and constant errata/new datasheets. All of this tomfuckery is intentional to get people to buy new plastic.
 
Supposedly space marines are all kidnapped orphans and behave like emotionless golums, Which is not how I saw them depicted in Space Marine (I've not played Space Marine 2) and Dawn of War. I suspect this is some "the space marines are the bad guys!" reddit type reading of the lore, but I don't know the new stuff.
I dunno if newer lore has changed it, since I kinda checked out around the time of Primaris, but both of those things were explicitly not true in older lore.

While there are some chapters that do that, there's plenty of examples that don't. Smurfs recruit from volunteers from the civvies of Ultramar, who see it as such an honour to serve there are academies to prepare them for the trials. Blood Angels host a giant tourney to select aspirants, all of whom have willingly traveled across the shithole that is Baal to take part.
Space Wolves could technically be argued to kidnap people since they often take people mortally wounded in battle, Valkyrie style, but Fenrisians consider them demigods, and being chosen an honour. Plus sometimes they'll turn up at a tribe's gathering and challenge them to a drunken arm-wrestling match or something to see who's worthy.

Same with the emotionless shit, while there's some chapters like the Iron Hands or the Marines Malevolent who are known for being cold and calculating there's plenty of examples of the opposite. Space Wolves are known both for being gregarious, and loved by the normies for defending the common man. Same with the Salamanders, who even choose to live amongst normies to day to day, to remind them why they fight. Hell even Black Templars, who aren't exactly known for being warm and cuddly, are capable of emotion. There's a brilliant bit in Helsreach where some normies save Helbrecht and some other Templars, and tell him they found the body of one of his men and hid it from the orks:
What is your name?’ the Reclusiarch asked the storm trooper.
‘Trooper Andrej, 703rd Steel Legion Storm trooper Division, sir.’
‘And yours?’ he asked the next man in line, taking every name until the last, whom he recognised without needing to ask. ‘Dockmaster Tomaz Maghernus,’ the knight grunted, finally. ‘It is good to see you on the field. Courage such as yours belongs at the vanguard.’
Maghernus’s skin crawled, not with distaste but raw awkwardness. How does one reply to such a thing? To say he was honoured? To admit that every muscle in his body ached and he regretted ever volunteering for this madness?
‘Thank you, Reclusiarch,’ he managed.
‘I will remember your names and deeds this day. All of you. Helsreach may burn, but this war is not lost. Every one of your names will be etched into the black stone pillars of the Valiant Hall aboard the Eternal Crusader.’
Andrej nodded. ‘I am very honoured, Reclusiarch, as are these handsome and fine gentlemen with me. But if you could tell my captain about this, I would be even happier.’
The harsh sound emitted from the Reclusiarch’s vox-speakers was somewhere between a bark and a snarl. It took Maghernus several moments to realise it had been a laugh.
 
Something that extends to a lot of 40k in general is things have been cleaned up and professionalized. To use art as an example, the art you post is more evocative, but also rough in spots. I don't mean this as an insult. Part of the appeal of the Horus Heresy for me is that it's the only part of 40k that doesn't feel cleaned up in this way.
I would disagree here specifically, I think what you're perceiving here is a combination of stylistic decisions and the lack of fidelity given by the fact that prior to 6th all 40k art was done with physical media.

I'll point to oldhammer examples, the classic Battlefleet Gothic Cover from Jon Blanche (Army Painter Won!) and the Cadian painting by Karl Kopinski I posted previously:
1742943705545.png1742943647965.png
Grim. Dark. Blanche's art needs little elaboration but the Cadians really do a lot of work. The composition over a white field is evocative of how historical uniform reference manuals will to illustrations of soldiers, and their poses are evocative of war photography, WW2 especially. The state of their uniforms also gives the sense of grizzled veterans, as does the random shit attached to their battle rattle. I especially like the shock trooper's ankle knife and holstered stub gun with extra rounds. Also worth noting that while the models never had this much kit, they're carrying an appropriate amount of bags, grenades, pouches, rolls and other crap, making their status as hard bit shocktroopers obvious. This image works really well for the guard because while contextually this is from a force description for Codex: Eye of Terror featuring a man wielding an industrial strength laser welder and another with a saber lightsaber as weapons the framing and visual language reads them as regular soldiers to us, despite the differences.

Now lets do a stylistic comparison to a modern primaris illustration with some tasteful accompaniment from D&Dt:
1742944023480.png1742943980299.png

I would argue what you are seeing as "professionalization" is subsuming an idiosyncratic style and tone to tabletop industry standards to presumably mass market appeal. Note the cleaner more hard edged look. The earlier guardsman are not easily visually readable, and you might've had trouble perceiving one was a Kasrkin without taking time. Further I highly doubt Jon Blanche could tell you close to what a 1/5th of the bits on the space ship he painted do, because he's not a technical illustrator. The primaris marine images to me just read "this is a marine with primaris equipment and the obligatory purity seals and skull so you didn't forget this is Warhammer." Kopinski's Cadian's communicate grimdark through visual language and context despite having less skulls and Chaos per man than most primaris marine illustrations I've seen. Yeah, Warhammer fits in better with D&D, Pathfinder, and other digital media atrocities, but at the expense of style and the opportunity to communicate tone and themes.

You can see the same thing with fantasy illustrations, like those done for games like D&D over time. I would spend more time picking example images, but I've spent too much time belaboring my thoughts on warhammer's artstyle enough.

Now that the tournament scene is established they can effectively print money by just making minor changes to rules or point values, because there are retards out there who will be prepared to put down hundreds/thousands on a new army just to remain competitive. Narrative players will get the odd scrap from the table to keep that corner of the hobby interested, but the game is clearly aimed at the tournament scene now. 40K is a successful IP, but in the grand scheme of things it is still fairly niche, and GW is first and foremost a miniatures company. This is why you have pricing based on a unit's perceived effectiveness, rules changes to new units almost on the day the physical models drop and constant errata/new datasheets. All of this tomfuckery is intentional to get people to buy new plastic.
If you look carefully at rules/codex developments for 4th-7th you can see how GW would learn this lesson.
 
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