Grace Lavery / Joseph Lavery & Daniel M. Lavery / Mallory Ortberg - "Straight with extra steps" couple trooning out to avoid "dwindling into mere heterosexuality"

[MirnaMinkoff]

Do we know how long she has been on testosterone or are we guessing based on her physical appearance? If she did decide to stop testosterone as a result of unpleasant physical side-effects, the damage is probably already done.
Sperm are generated daily and are entirely replaced roughly every couple of months. Joe can stop the hormones, do some exercise(!), take some supplements for a few months and his fertility has a good chance of recovery.

No, we have no idea about her hormone dosage but she did mention taking a break from T a few years ago on her blog. I think she did and it was permanent. AFAIK she has never mentioned the subject again since then. As far as how long? She definitely started by 2018 when she publicly declared she was a dude. I’d still wager she was on it less than 4 years.

Lilly seemed to put a big damper on her gender euphoria. I think Joe getting a side piece had a major effect on her trans journey. She went from discussing an appt about getting a rotdog to taking a T break in the space of six months or so, which was around the time of Lilly moving in. Mallory’s fashion aesthetic also went from bright designer clown clothes to tard baby depression-ware since Lilly arrived.

Joe had two young wives before Mallory, no kids. I think he may just be a low count, low motility kind of guy. Exercise and vitamins won’t fix that, he needs a lab tech with a micro manipulator to force his lady sperm into ovum.

 

[Bookwork]

Having frisked the web, the most dispositive I've seen coy Mister Danny be re: testosterone was on another pooner's substack, where she chirrupped on July 8, 2021 (link):

Spoiler: text

without trying to overcorrect, like, I am coming up on 5 years on T and I still experience (new!) changes and I do not get reliably sirred
Lmao "Good news, I'm almost five years in, and I still don't pass"

That would put her start date in summer 2016. Yet on February 15, 2018, on Instagram, it seemed to be a new thing (link):

One finds oneself anxious today! I’m approaching the end of a 90-day experiment sponsored by a clinic willing to facilitate a hunch of mine, namely, that were I to apply a patch with a testosterone gel somewhere on my person every 24 hours, something interesting and lovely might happen. A lot of things have happened, especially jawline acne. Most of those things have been lovely and meaningful and good. (“I will water your camels also,” I suppose.) Today I am getting bloodwork to ensure that my heart has not exploded in my body, and to discuss what comes next as I prepare to press pause on the experiment. I am anxious, I am grateful, my sight is dim and a-swim with fears, and I am bound to start quoting Rufus Wainwright lyrics if I let this go on any further, so I’ll draw a veil around the rest and simply say - any goodwill or prayers you are willing to spend, spend them on me.

ETA: I suppose it could have been patches that were new and she'd been micro-dosing before that.

In sifting all her vague cutesypoo, which is striking me more and more like self-pity wearing a doily, I happened to see what her "it means nothing" middle initial did mean as of 2020. From the cover of Daniel Mallory Ortberg's Something That May Shock and Discredit You:

One of the essays is about how pwecious Daniel would dither if she found a dwop of testosterone on the ground.

Seeming to confirm she was still on T, in October 2020, she posted a cutesy, vague Chatner called "In Case I Have To Go Off T Someday" (link):

Three trans men of a certain type (were Mary McCarthy writing The Group today, they’d have featured prominently in at least the Vassar flashbacks, say. By which I mean: yes, of course they are) sit down at a table. Before them is a loaf of bread and three syringes. They wait politely. There is a long silence, followed by an even longer one.

It must be on the thread somewhere because she illustrated it with a cartoon in which Micky and Goofy try to keep Donald Duck from attacking a cow.

Did not find anything about her going off. If she did make that public, I'm sure it would have been in a vague, cutesy way like Jane Eyre getting a text about gentlemen being no less gentlemen should they leave a button unbuttoned.

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

Did not find anything about her going off. If she did make that public, I'm sure it would have been in a vague, cutesy way like Jane Eyre getting a text about gentlemen being no less gentlemen should they leave a button unbuttoned.

It was posted in this thread, because I don’t read or consume their content anywhere but KF.

My memory isn’t perfect, and it might have been less explicitly worded than I remember, but she definitely referred to taking a break from T at one point. Im sure it was from her chatter blog, but I just recall the text excerpt here. I want to say in Feb or March 2023. It was mildly surprising because within the recent past year she had talked about going to a phalloplasty consultation. It was only a few sentences and it was explained like a needed health break, certainly not because she had any doubts about her masculinity. Lilly was around by then, but not sure if she was a permanent fixture

If I get time this evening I’ll try to dig it up later since I referenced it.

 

[Autistic Nonetheless]

IDK how well established this is (or if this is more Joe mythologizing) but apparently Mal did originally say no and only came around to the idea when they both trooned out.

Spoiler: pic

Joe actuality looking like a normal guy is kinda weird. No hint of the blob monster he would soon become.

Spoiler: txt

this picture taken three months into the most important relationship of my life, a few minutes before I asked him to marry me (with plausible deniability). He said no, explaining that I was a complete fucking mess. So two years passed, and I made some edits to my endocrine system, and then he took me back and HE asked and I said yes and now we are going to get marrrieeeeeeeeeed on December 22nd

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

IDK how well established this is (or if this is more Joe mythologizing) but apparently Mal did originally say no and only came around to the idea when they both trooned out.

Spoiler: pic

View attachment 7294621
Joe actuality looking like a normal guy is kinda weird. No hint of the blob monster he would soon become.

Spoiler: txt

this picture taken three months into the most important relationship of my life, a few minutes before I asked him to marry me (with plausible deniability). He said no, explaining that I was a complete fucking mess. So two years passed, and I made some edits to my endocrine system, and then he took me back and HE asked and I said yes and now we are going to get marrrieeeeeeeeeed on December 22nd

“Two years passed, but I finally managed to successfully alienate her from her entire family and now we are getting married!!!”

Joe’s biggest roadblock to Yoko’ing Mallory was her family. It took him awhile to solve that problem, but he managed and ensured it was as public as possible so she couldn’t change her mind.

I wonder if Mallory resents the fact that Lilly got lots of benefit with zero sacrifice out of her relationship with Joe. Mallory had to destroy her family, sacrifice friendships, ruin her credit and sell her house at the altar of Joe. Lilly got to move into their pricey Brooklyn flat, Joe paid to put a IVF baby in her and she got to keep her house.

Mallory gave up almost everything about her previous life and identity and in return gets to be domestic help for Joe and Lilly.

 

[Anasa Tristis]

but apparently Mal did originally say no and only came around to the idea when they both trooned out.

That photo made me sit up and examine it carefully. It's unbelievable. They were akshully a cute and happy couple once. Healthy lookin' with lots of energy too.

 

[monstrous bubo]

My memory isn’t perfect, and it might have been less explicitly worded than I remember, but she definitely referred to taking a break from T at one point. Im sure it was from her chatter blog, but I just recall the text excerpt here. I want to say in Feb or March 2023.

I’ve searched for any mentions of testosterone (unfortunately a search for T surrounded by spaces doesn’t work). The closest I can get is this post from March 2022, which doesn’t have a citation. The preceding posts don’t mention it either. A search of the thread for digestion/digestive, and a cheeky Google revealed nothing either, but perhaps this might help others find the smoking T patch.

She mutilated her body (and did so on a seeming lark, based on the first article about it). She was on testosterone but stopped due to complications with her digestive system.

Someone else stopped hormones in Feb/March 2023 - Joe! It might have been related to his concurrent long COVID arc, but more likely it was his first step to fatherhood, as he impregnated Lily later that year. Bravo to @Risky Horse Business who called it first.

Joe has detransitioned! (And is now retransitioning!)
For reasons too complicated for any of us to understand, he had to stop taking estrogen for six months.

My wanderings through this thread also revealed this excellent post of Joe’s planned works as at March 2023.

The books he's supposedly writing:

Aaah, what could have been.

 

[Bookwork]

Yeah, I did the trek, too (becalmed at work but cannot do anything useful while awaiting someone else's contribution). To save others a re-re-trek:

Started p 252, Dec. 8, 2022. Ended p 266, Apr 19, 2023.

A Dec 18 2022 post captured Mallory saying "yes" to "Are you on testosterone?"

Because Joe announced the end of a boob-wilting six-month estrogen hiatus on Feb 26, 2023, as he completed his 39th year of "life," I gave August 2022 an extra look in case Danny went off testosterone when Joe went off E as a hubandly kind of thing and just lied in that Dec 2022 post.

Nope, we captured nothing about T, but on Aug 25, 2022, Mallory announced she was 9 years sober.

My keyword searches were similar to @monstrous bubo's. I also tried "break" as in taking a break from T. Nutthin.

But I had a blast reading back. Y'all damn funny.

ETA - To be clear: @MirnaMinkoff, I didn't do this because I doubt you. Mal's no Buck Angel. She looks like she chickened out and settled on role play sans pharamceuticals. There's a poignant moment here where she goes for a bottom surgery consult and the staff assume she's there for top surgery... which she'd already had.

 

[Potatis Salad]

The earliest mentions of the Laverys on Kiwi Farms were in the Tranny Sideshows thread. Unfortunately, I provided no citation for this in Feb 2020:

I also noticed that true and honest man Mallory has recently changed her pronouns from he/him to they/them. I feel bad for her. Isolated from her mom and sister with her tits chopped off, all thanks to Lavery.

 

[mold]

I'm just going to make my regular point that I don't believe at all that Mallory was charlesmansoned into attempting to destroy her family, I think she would have pulled something similar Joe or no Joe.

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

ETA - To be clear: @MirnaMinkoff, I didn't do this because I doubt you. Mal's no Buck Angel. She looks like she chickened out and settled on role play sans pharamceuticals. There's a poignant moment here where she goes for a bottom surgery consult and the staff assume she's there for top surgery... which she'd already had.

No offense at all, i appreciate the search. My recall of useless info is immense, but I also only remember my interpretation of posts and their intent, not exact text which is probably the issue. I’m also terrible with dates. At first I guessed it could have happened in 2022, but changed my mind after quickly scanning Feb-March 2022 in the thread. I sort of dipped out of the thread bored during the throuple honeymoon, returning shortly after I checked back in and discovered Lilly was pregnant. Lmao.

But looking back on those posts it really strikes me what a dramatic difference you see in Mallory, and her physical presentation, before Lilly entered the picture. I had not noticed this before, it’s sort of the frog slowly boiling effect. It’s almost as dramatic as 2017 Mallory vs 2019 troon Mallory different.

Even after she lost weight she didn’t pull out the Saved by the Bell wardrobe she sported during her “I’m trans!”, call me Danny press rounds.

Lilly really seemed to have a chilling effect on the gender euphoria of the Laverys. Maybe she’s some sort of secret TERF? After she arrived Joe ceased estrogen and fathered a child with his sperm. Mallory started coo’ing over babies, working as a nanny and writing books about female spaces.

 

[Law]

Lmao "Good news, I'm almost five years in, and I still don't pass"

Give up already, Mallory!

I wonder if Mallory resents the fact that Lilly got lots of benefit with zero sacrifice out of her relationship with Joe.

Probably. Women fighting each other because they want to be the main recipient of The One Dude's magical, coveted attention is a key reason why children in polygamist relationships have worse outcomes.

 

[MirnaMinkoff]

I'm just going to make my regular point that I don't believe at all that Mallory was charlesmansoned into attempting to destroy her family, I think she would have pulled something similar Joe or no Joe.

Then why it take until she was in her 30’s and hooked up with Joe? (I’m sure her family would have been civil to Joe, but also despised him and not been happy about Mallory being besotted with him)

Mallory might have thrown her family under the bus for another BPD partner who resulted in a “me or them” situation but I don’t think she would have pulled this on her own. She needed an audience to cheer her along.

Hell the closet thing to Joe, before Joe, was Nicole Cliffe and she found Jesus and had Papa Ortberg baptize her.

If Mallory was prone to dynamiting her family I think it would have happened in her early 20’s when she was doing piece for Gawker and soaking in the hip atheist love. She had the type of audience who would have enjoyed the spectacle of her roasting her uber Christian parents, but she didn’t. She couldn’t even be that mean or seem bitter, just laugh at the cringey 90’s evangelical culture.

I was actually surprised at how nice she was towards her family given their earnest, evangelical Christian beliefs and was quite sweet in describing her childhood/ parents. After Nicole’s baptism she even started veering back towards Jesus. Something caused a radical change in her, and her behavior/ feelings towards her family, and Mr Yoko seems like the obvious.

Probably. Women fighting each other because they want to be the main recipient of The One Dude's magical, coveted attention is a key reason why children in polygamist relationships have worse outcomes.

Right, but usually in polygamy you usually have women that each have children by “The One” …or resenting the new fun wife that he hasn’t knocked up yet. Polygamy with only one wife breeding with the one man is unusual, but so is one wife pretending to be a man and playing nanny.

It’s more akin to the old infertile wife being displaced and forced to care for the children of the new wife. If this was the Bible or some fairy tale Mallory would be amassing books on poisons and spells, and Bobby Joe and Lilly in mortal danger.

Of course we know this is healthy, modern, transgender polygamy and Mallory would never harm family!

 

[mold]

everybody does that shit after their saturn return

which is to say, you're not actually an individuated adult in your 20s and you start the process between 27 and 32.

mallory was completely enmeshed with her family in a way that's not even socially abnormal for people now. obviously we both have different opinions here based on different experiences but I don't see people doing this when they're basically still babies. the only reason mallory was even paying her own bills in her early 20s was nicole, and again, that's totally normal for people right now.

 

[Autistic Nonetheless]

Take it with a grain of salt but Joe's new book was at one point about schizophrenia being a spook.

Spoiler: spooooooks

Vidal was the ultimate brilliant, witty homosexual socialite everyone wanted to fuck or hang out with. He bought a castle in 1970 on a cliff overlooking the Amalfi coast in Southern Italy that everyone wanted to be invited to visit, not just gay guys

I visited there in my early 20's on a writers pilgrimage through italy. It's in private ownership but they did occasionally let people through. the Villa Cimbrone is also there and is even open to the public.
It's also there on the Amalfi coast that i met a life long friend named Richard who is still marked down in my phone as Dickie.

Lilly really seemed to have a chilling effect on the gender euphoria of the Laverys. Maybe she’s some sort of secret TERF? After she arrived Joe ceased estrogen and fathered a child with his sperm. Mallory started coo’ing over babies, working as a nanny and writing books about female spaces.

I remember reading a chunk of Lily’s PHD that made it clear she has a thing for gender revolutionaries. She's no secret terf but she is an enabler who wants to live vicariously through others. Which is what kept her out of troon troubles. (EDIT; FOUND IT!)

Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if both Lily are Joe were less happy with the current arrangement then Mal. Lily is a reasonably well put together parent with stability on her mid while Joe has professional and personal Joe reasons for wanting a change.

Meanwhile Mal’s motherly and slightly masochist need to sacrifice for love means she is kept well busy. Her and Lily don’t have a romantic relationship and It’s really all on Joe, who has the truckers gift for keeping 4 families in 3 different sates, happy.

And Joe himself isn’t machiavellian about any of this either. He is just a selfish man who isnt all that concerned about the trouble he's caused others.

 

[monstrous bubo]

Take it with a grain of salt but Joe's new book was at one point about schizophrenia being a spook.

Schizophrenia is made up, we must abolish mental hospitals and replace them with peer-led care centres for … who exactly? If schizophrenia isn’t real, why are other mental illnesses? Was his alcohol addiction?

So he wants no prison or mental hospital or free market in his utopia. Joe’s world of distressed schizos roaming the streets with child rapists as we all fight over fewer and fewer goods and resources sounds great, as long as we also get guns and flamethrowers. Knowing him however he’d ban them and leave us only armed with Lacan.

 

[Autistic Nonetheless]

Knowing him however he’d ban them and leave us only armed with Lacan.

I think he makes it a point of pride not to have any practical concerns. Joe is very much the idea man.

Freud of course also thought that neurosis was a byproduct of civilization, But at least in Civilization and Its Discontents he argued these eccentricities are a price well worth paying if we are to have working trains, electricity, the internet and the kiwifarms. Later scholars argued that most neurosis are a the result of capitalism or heterosexuality or whatever lib bogeyman they had it out for that week.

 

[Bookwork]

Mallory took the night train home and was praised by the conductor (as was with everyone else in the sleeping car) for traveling by train.

"I felt smug and pleased with myself for being praised," says the emotionally ravenous lumberjack whose admitted favorite past-time is giving up her seat on public transit to old ladies so that they give her a fleeting like.

That comes at the end of the new Chatner (link | archive) when she declares herself a hypocrite.

No shit, Dear Reader might say.

But of course it's just Tardbaby's clumsy exit from a self-debate on why bother to launch book events with a speech about the power of storytelling because it's fine when storytelling has no power.

She has nothing to say about her panel or authors she met, but finds it relevant that she saw the restored Beau Geste at the TCM movie festival where the audience was praised for "caring about movies first."

I am as vain and lazy as the next man, and I do enjoy being praised for my leisure pursuits as if they were in themselves a mark of courage and distinction, but I do grow slightly uneasy at the uniform praise for merely liking books or movies, as if they were all interchangeably and universally good for one.

Drawing a blank, frens. Which of her leisure pursuits might get praised as marks of courage and distinction?

Says "Zak" in comments, irony factor undetermined, "A distinctive thing about Daniel these days, almost unique among very good writers, is a playful avoidance of topical hot-buttons...." Tardbaby replies:

It is so difficult because I think many very good people are struggling immensely, but I think it’s important to think carefully and clearly and not overstate our own cases in such times! And I do often avoid discussing hot-button topics because I so rarely feel able to contribute anything new or insightful to the discussion, not because they aren’t worth discussing — I just need more time. Might be why I write historical fiction at present. I have so little to say about the way we live now!

I have no thoughts and I must write.

My last on T:

Mal's conflicting comments about having been on T for five years vs having been on T for only three years may point to a re-start and therefore going off in 2017 because of side effects. Doctors then suggested patches and she went back on.

She may have referred to it in her coy way later on and that's what's haunting memory. Or it may be lurking in the more general thread where the throuple proved themselves worthy of a Woolfish thread of their own.

 

[Larry David's Opera Cape]

Freud of course also thought that neurosis was a byproduct of civilization, But at least in Civilization and Its Discontents he argued these eccentricities are a price well worth paying if we are to have working trains, electricity, the internet and the kiwifarms. Later scholars argued that most neurosis are a the result of capitalism or heterosexuality or whatever lib bogeyman they had it out for that week.

Classical psychoanalysis draws a strong distinction between neurosis and psychosis. Schizophrenia is psychosis, the classic example of it. This is also where we get the term "borderline," referring to patients who are on the line between these two states.

 

[Law]

I am as vain and lazy as the next man, and I do enjoy being praised for my leisure pursuits as if they were in themselves a mark of courage and distinction

Gamers rise up.

Joe wanting to write about, sigh, "demons", mental illnesses being made up and fake but only when he says so, and modern life being bad but then coming up with a solution that's nonsensical and horrifying and being too myopic to see that it's nonsensical and horrifying makes me think that Mary Harrington is the next target of a Yoko-ing.
Seriously what started the demons meme? Is every pretentious goofball who wants to be Substack Famous secretly watching Hazbin Hotel?