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Old King Koaleamos said:
If Duggan or any of the hacks Marvel used to finish Krakoa had even understood how to set up this kinda story and execute even on par with Hickman, they wouldn't have had so criticism
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Fuck Duggan, but I think Gillen, Ewing, and Spurrier did a really good job of closing down their respective parts of the era (with the material and time they had been given).

Gillen in particular did a great job with the Immortal X-Men line. Even the Eternals event was pretty good, and considering Marvel's track record on events for the last... almost 2 decades, that's a feat.

Duggan tho, a boring, disjointed, pointless shitshow. The rest of the writers sucked during the last leg of it too. Percy had interesting things going for a while but the outcome of the Beast stuff was so rushed and predictable, it fucking sucked. And how, oh god how, did they make the Otherworld line of books so GODDAMN LAME.
 
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Nick Obre said:
Fuck Duggan, but I think Gillen, Ewing, and Spurrier did a really good job of closing down their respective parts of the era (with the material and time they had been given).

Gillen in particular did a great job with the Immortal X-Men line. Even the Eternals event was pretty good, and considering Marvel's track record on events for the last... almost 2 decades, that's a feat.

Duggan tho, a boring, disjointed, pointless shitshow. The rest of the writers sucked during the last leg of it too. Percy had interesting things going for a while but the outcome of the Beast stuff was so rushed and predictable, it fucking sucked. And how, oh god how, did they make the Otherworld line of books so GODDAMN LAME.
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you're making me cry internally.

the Beast stuff could have been interesting and you know it just felt like Hickman was planning on having Hank finally break down as a person.

also, yeah, the Otherworld stuff was so fucking retarded. MAN I'M STILL MAD THEY WASTED ALL THIS POTENTIAL.

GOD, I HATE HACKS.

Yeah, Ewing and Gillen are competent, but I feel like Hickman shoulda been allowed to finish his vision. It sounds like it would have been insanely cool. The revelation that all this weirdness was Onslaught/Shadow King infesting everything? What about Moira X?

But no. It all dies with a whimper. At least we get the interesting point of having all these X-characters being ressurected for more story potential, right?
 
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Old King Koaleamos said:
also, yeah, the Otherworld stuff was so fucking retarded. MAN I'M STILL MAD THEY WASTED ALL THIS POTENTIAL.

GOD, I HATE HACKS.
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I've said it before, but I was reading Remender's X-Force, and then Howard's Excalibur, and... how am I supposed to believe these two Betsies are the same character? The characterization is SO FUCKED. There's nothing left in there of the wonderful Betsy from Remender's, it's insane.

And how do you fuck up such interesting concepts they introduced early on, like that Vampire kingdom, Mad Jim Jaspers ruling a mystical market, a whole region turned into a factory of Furies, or Mister M just up and taking over a part of Otherworld because who can even do anything about it?
There was so much potential when they first hinted at all of those things, but when they actually went and used them, they all sucked. Impossible shit.

Old King Koaleamos said:
Yeah, Ewing and Gillen are competent, but I feel like Hickman shoulda been allowed to finish his vision. It sounds like it would have been insanely cool. The revelation that all this weirdness was Onslaught/Shadow King infesting everything? What about Moira X?

But no. It all dies with a whimper. At least we get the interesting point of having all these X-characters being ressurected for more story potential, right?
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He totally should have been allowed to play out his planned story, but he's bad at endings. Would it have been better than what we got? Maybe. Would it have been as good as it had the potential to be? No way. Also it involving the Intergalactic Empire of Wakanda in the supposed endgame would have soured the whole thing for me. Which sucks because I really like the Children of the Vault and The World and their associated concepts, which would have been involved in this supposed plan.

Not sure I like the idea that it would turn out to be just evil mind control tho. I had this theory, which I prefer, based on the line Moira has very early on about "the womb having a built-in bliss, zen via biology; mother is home, and it's the world outside that makes you crazy"; I thought they'd eventually reveal Krakoa induced a sense of contentment on its inhabitants, making them more susceptible to going along with everything that's happening. Which is why only people with healing factors (Logan, Laura, arguably Sabretooth) acted skeptical or disruptive to the apparent peace and conformity of Krakoa early on, and people too powerful to be affected, like Legion, were entirely unimpressed by it. Nightcrawler, with his stronger-than-most moral backbone, felt conflicted about it but couldn't quite break the neuroleptic effect. This would explain some of the out of character behavior, the complacency with the new morally grey status quo, former villains toeing the line, and so on. Not mind control, just biologically induced happiness.

But no.

And also now Xavier had a brain tumor.
 
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Bay Kemal said:
I just started reading Claremont but all this Krakoa talk proves that mutants deserve everything that happens to them.
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A part of me will always have a soft spot for the classic Claremont though. Not just days of future past and dark Phoenix but especially the stuff with Jim lee...that little part of my inner 90s child will always have sentimental memories of those times.


However I will admit Claremont was probably the first writer to pave the way for the xmen to be marvels woke mouth piece even long before wokeshit was a thing.

Ah well....speaking of 90s throwbacks. That's also something I like about the skottie young era artwork even when it's not done by Jake Parker it just makes me think back to watching off the walls cartoons on TV as a kid. From ren and stimpy, to Beavis and butthead, and stuff not exactly well remembered like brothers grunt or lupo the butcher. Mainly cause of how parkers art especially can look grungy and like the gross out animation that was all the rage back then without actually being gross or hard to look at.


It's hard to put into words but it's an art style I wish western animation used more of. Sure I know people would prefer the more "realistic" rocket raccoon and that's fine too, but I always felt rocket was always more cartoony than the rest of the marvel universe. His 80s solo mini series is practically a Saturday morning 80s cartoon.
 
Ngl this thread makes me feel like a kid again. talking comics in the shop while ma was getting her hair and nails done at the aalon next door, before the simpsons esq comic book guy would say to us the classic. "This ain't a library or a clubhouse. " But he never said buy or get lost...he said we're more than welcome to use it like one. Damn that feels like a hundred years ago.


Can barley remember much don't even remember names and the faces of others are like they're shrouded in fog.


In closing, if I may paraphrase Alfred Hitchcock's psycho: I don't hate marvel...I hate what they've become.
 
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Xmen's premise never mad esense, I remember that in the 90s show, I cared more about Gambit, who was cool, and Rogue, who had good tits, than their dramas, which made little sense back then and are worse now. Not only they tried to combine two completely opposed genres (drama and action), it was in an universe with actual superhero mutants existed (like the F4 and Spiderman), which made the racism even stranger and forced. The fact that the mutants' power level was all over the place dind't help (of course people are afraid of you, Storm, because you can blow up an entire fucking city!).
The overtly dramatic Logan movie funnily enough did manage to show a combination of these genres working well together, kind of, even if it was a bit depressing. It was still better than Old Man Logan's comics, which were 90s comics that arrived late (to be fair, I doubt anyone would have dared to animate Hulk's incest clan, and not just because Hollywoke hates Hulk).
 
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Newcomer 42 said:
Xmen's premise never mad esense, I remember that in the 90s show, I cared more about Gambit, who was cool, and Rogue, who had good tits, than their dramas, which made little sense back then and are worse now. Not only they tried to combine two completely opposed genres (drama and action), it was in an universe with actual superhero mutants existed (like the F4 and Spiderman), which made the racism even stranger and forced.
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I would argue it made a lot more sense in the early days of the comics then it does now. Back in the 60s the F4 and Spider-Man where both rather hated by the average people in the Marvel universe like the X-Men are it's just that the writers stopped focusing on it for the non X-Men groups.
 
Newcomer 42 said:
Xmen's premise never mad esense, I remember that in the 90s show, I cared more about Gambit, who was cool, and Rogue, who had good tits, than their dramas, which made little sense back then and are worse now. Not only they tried to combine two completely opposed genres (drama and action), it was in an universe with actual superhero mutants existed (like the F4 and Spiderman), which made the racism even stranger and forced. The fact that the mutants' power level was all over the place dind't help (of course people are afraid of you, Storm, because you can blow up an entire fucking city!).
The overtly dramatic Logan movie funnily enough did manage to show a combination of these genres working well together, kind of, even if it was a bit depressing. It was still better than Old Man Logan's comics, which were 90s comics that arrived late (to be fair, I doubt anyone would have dared to animate Hulk's incest clan, and not just because Hollywoke hates Hulk).
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I think my issue is that we don't really see a focus on the media hate the mutants get, it's all told to us 90% of the time. Doesn't help that most writers just lazily use the mutants as stand-ins for blacks/gays/marginalized groups instead of actually addressing the issue of spontaneous and sometimes uncontrollable superpowered people.

That being said, I took a look at the last issue of the X-manhunt event and it showed Cyclops in a panic attack breakdown. You'd figure this would have happened a dozen times over. Professor Xavier gets to walk away. I don't really get the logic.

I think it'd be far smarter for the Marvel Universe to go with mutants being controlled and mitigated. Fucking hell, whatever happened to all the "initiative" teams for every state. You had an America dripping with so many damned superheroes that you could have a super-team for every state. The mutants were in flux, but that's also because they were consistently set up in situations because a lot of them are walking WMDs. Either fund programs to get them into super-teams or something useful, or fund an X-gene neutralizer.

Instead we get. . . rinse and repeat. Who's gonna be the next big bad? Will Magneto have a total breakdown again?
 
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Scarlett Johansson said:
Tbh Kwannon is cooler....Hellions and Fallen Angels were great imo. The other Krakoa books were pozzed.
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You're crazy

Hellions was indeed fantastic (incidentally, how the fuck did Wells write something so good, then everything else so bad? It's like Hopeless' Nova, it's fucking incredible, even for how short it is, and then he goes on to work on the bad Rick and Morty seasons, and fucking Quantumania)

But Fallen Angels was absolute trash
 
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Newcomer 42 said:
Xmen's premise never mad esense, I remember that in the 90s show, I cared more about Gambit, who was cool, and Rogue, who had good tits, than their dramas, which made little sense back then and are worse now. Not only they tried to combine two completely opposed genres (drama and action), it was in an universe with actual superhero mutants existed (like the F4 and Spiderman), which made the racism even stranger and forced. The fact that the mutants' power level was all over the place dind't help (of course people are afraid of you, Storm, because you can blow up an entire fucking city!).
The overtly dramatic Logan movie funnily enough did manage to show a combination of these genres working well together, kind of, even if it was a bit depressing. It was still better than Old Man Logan's comics, which were 90s comics that arrived late (to be fair, I doubt anyone would have dared to animate Hulk's incest clan, and not just because Hollywoke hates Hulk).
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I remember reading the Old Man Logan stuff with Maestro and thinking, “Why didn’t they just use Maestro to begin with?”

Then I remember the one-trick pony who did Old Man Logan and I know why, the powers that be decided to import some worthless euro trash who hate comics. Ultimates 1 and 2 are kino though, pure 2000s nostalgia.
 
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Old King Koaleamos said:
I think my issue is that we don't really see a focus on the media hate the mutants get, it's all told to us 90% of the time.
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The early Busiek/Perez run on Avengers actually played with this as a running subplot--mob protests outside the mansion because of not enough minorities and too many mutants on the team. And being mid-to-late 90's, said protestors are not automatically portrayed as right (since they remembered the time Gyrich forced Falcon on the team as a token, and it was also around the time Priest revealed t'Challa had only become an Avenger to see if they were a threat).
 
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Clyde Cash's Left Teste said:
That panel that shows up every few months on X and stuff is great
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Which one, the one where everyone in an alien bar pays their respects to Rich for what he did during the Annihilation wars, or the one where Rich gets an update from the Champions on the then current status of heroes and hates it?
 
Nick Obre said:
Which one, the one where everyone in an alien bar pays their respects to Rich for what he did during the Annihilation wars, or the one where Rich gets an update from the Champions on the then current status of heroes and hates it?
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I liked both, but Rider coming back to earth and seeing what's happened just disappointing him happened twice. Hell, didn't he pop up on Earth in the aftermath of both Civil War events? That was kinda weird.

But the "you don't have to pay" Bar scene was kino. I loved the chant of "He stood when no one else could". To the rest of the aliens, Richard Rider's probably one of the only humans they can name.

It was beautiful and then we had AL Ewing trying to set up weird shit in his GoTG series and I'm not sure where that was heading.
 
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Anon88 said:
I would argue it made a lot more sense in the early days of the comics then it does now. Back in the 60s the F4 and Spider-Man where both rather hated by the average people in the Marvel universe like the X-Men are it's just that the writers stopped focusing on it for the non X-Men groups.
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It's funny when you see that early X-Men page where they're practically celebrities.

I think the Ultimate verse set up kind of worked. People love the Ultimates because they're volunteers who gained powers and are answerable to the government. But people hate the X-Men because anyone can be a mutant, and there are a lot of evil mutants who can do a lot of damage with their powers, and the X-Men answer to no one. Adding in that Spider-Man is mistrusted because people think he's a mutant worked too.
 
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