Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

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the hegemony that you benefit from
how do americans benefit from nato though

natos major benefit to america was power projection into the european and mediterranean regions. this was useful because it allowed them to counter the USSR right at its doorstep, and made it so that if the cold war ever went hot, the fighting and destruction would take place far away from the american homeland.

but that was decades ago. today there is no ussr and no cold war.
the hostility between usa and ussr existed because the ussr was intent on achieving communist world domination by any means necessary, which made it a real and direct threat to the usa.
but russia does not pursue world communism, russia pursues territorial expansion in eastern europe and west asia. this is not a threat to america like the ussr was, so it is not clear why america should have an interest in countering it.
 
but russia does not pursue world communism, russia pursues territorial expansion in eastern europe and west asia. this is not a threat to america like the ussr was, so it is not clear why america should have an interest in countering it.
If you can't see that an expansionist nation may one day pose a threat to yours then you have vision issues. You benefit from NATO by having a massive alliance of nations who are your allies and are anti-expansionist. What America loses in paying for NATO it makes up for in export customers and reduced personnel requirements. Should the U.S for any reason ever find itself in any conflict it has the right to support and protection from its allies. The only nation to ever enact article 5 was the U.S. It also has a massive benefit of being able to call upon allies to fight with you even when Article 5 is not invoked. The U.S was never alone in the middle east. Many nations didn't have to be there but wanted to be. Without NATO you have less allies and less strength in any conflict big or small. This is a problem for Europe now but could be a problem for America tomorrow and your lack of foresight is disturbing. You want your back scratched but when it's your turn you would rather the U.S walk away.
 
Trump sounding like a real neutroller with his claim that this isn't his war and that the US should have never got involved in the first place:


Ukraine's Western allies continue to provide military aid to Ukraine. Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese met with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on May 18 and confirmed the provision of Abrams tanks to Ukraine, and the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) reported on May 19 that the first of 49 Abrams tanks are en route to Ukraine.[18] Denmark announced on May 17 a military aid package for Ukraine worth 4.2 billion Danish kroner (about $632 million) for 2025–2028 that includes artillery systems and ammunition, equipment for fighter jets, and funding for Ukrainian Air Force training facilities.[19] The Finnish Ministry of Defense (MoD) announced on May 19 that it signed an agreement with the European Commission to supply Ukraine with materiel and heavy ammunition worth 90 million euros (about $101 million) using the profits from Russian frozen assets.[20]
Source.

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how do americans benefit from nato though
NATO means a defacto captive market for US defense systems as none to few of the European counterparts exist at scale.

NATO security umbrella also provides a culturally compatible trading partners which are mostly democratic states.

The USSR has Russia as its half population mini me successor which interferes in all Western countries to a greater ot lesser extent and assails with acts of terror.

The simping for Russia and its butt buddies like Orbán's Hungary, seen most notably in the US is wholly against the interests of everyone in the West.

Trump needs to dump his TV host duds and get better advice. NATO is the best forum for working out how to counter the horde.
 
Nobody wants to fight and die for Ukraine and have the policy of fighting to the last Ukrainian against Russia. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and others have the bigger more immediate threats of China on their doorstep and domestic issues at home. For them to commit to any direct conflict with a nuclear power is not an option.
I obviously didn't mean sending troops nor nuking russians. Just shit like sending all kinds of toys to Ukraine (again, except nuclear warheads) without any use limitations, either financing these with seized kacap money (or donating these funds wholly to UAF), completely stopping importing russian gas or oil.
 
NATO security umbrella also provides a culturally compatible trading partners which are mostly democratic states.
Not anymore considering they all coped, seethed, and cried on camera when Vance told them they were a bunch of censorious fuckwits.
Trump needs to dump his TV host duds and get better advice. NATO is the best forum for working out how to counter the horde.
You're quite right, but...
Trump sounding like a real neutroller with his claim that this isn't his war and that the US should have never got involved in the first place:
A fight in Eastern Europe between Russia and someone who isn't a NATO member isn't an issue of immediate concern for us, not when you've got shit like the Houthis fucking with international shipping (but that's been dealt with IIRC), and especially not when the Europeans themselves who should theoretically be the ones most involved, contributing aid, and concerned with stopping Russian expansion are the ones directly funding the Russian war machine!
 
Or the Euros refusing to acknowledge it was Germany and France who blocked Ukraine from joining NATO in 2009. Or that the North African, Middle East and Persian oil mostly goes to them, central and eastern Asia and it have been the United States who been keeping the oil flowing to them. Then there's France and other euro nations have been keeping Iran funded by continuing to buy their oil and other goods to spite the United States on its sanctions on Iran since the Iranian Revolution.
 

Putin is confident that his forces can break through Ukraine’s defenses by the end of the year to take full control of four regions that he has claimed for Russia, according to a person familiar with the Russian president’s thinking who asked not to named discussing private conversations.
Source.
William Spaniel on this possible Kremlin leak: "Will Russia's False Optimism Open the Door for Ukraine? The Dumb Diplomacy Saga Continues", Lines on Maps Extra
 
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Opinion piece from Foreign Policy arguing that Russia has begun losing the war. Mostly just a summary of issues with Russia's ability to attain its war goals, nice to see some hopium at least.


The recently resigned US ambassador to Ukraine wrote an Op-Ed. (A) Note that she retired in April, so after Trump's policy became clearer, and has served under both parties.


Finland uses the proceeds from frozen Russian assets to supply ammunition for Ukraine. 90 million Euros worth of ammo.

Some more hopium, with the recent sanctioning of ships and the more pro euro parties doing better it seems that Europe has both the motivation and the political space to start pushing hard on Russia. It seems the US will be standing where it is on sanctions, at least for now.


Not much on the acceptance of Eastern European members but we do know his thoughts on NATO. In his book "The America we deserve" published in 2000, he says: "Our allies in NATO, for instance, are getting a free ride in some cases, and it's worth asking whether we should continue to pay the lion's share for defending Europe when Europe is economically strong and capable of defending itself". He also goes on to say later that "We need to look at our alliances, like NATO, and ask whether they still serve our interests or whether they're relics of a bygone era. The Cold War is over, and we can't be stuck in the mindset of 1949". So as you can see, even then and likely much earlier, he felt NATO was a perhaps defunct or outdated org.
The peace dividend went hard in Europe and a rapprochement with Russia was also popular at the time on both sides of the Atlantic, though not in Eastern Europe. Pointing that out was hardly ground breaking in 2000, but after 9/11 many countries did support the invasion of Afghanistan materially so anti NATO sentiments became less popular. Even Russia helped facilitate the use of bases in Uzbekistan for the invasion of Afghanistan. Now, this is right after Chechnya so fighting Islamic Terrorism was popular in Russia so don't go overboard there. With the bungling of foreign wars in Iraq and Afghanistan the general sentiment in the United States has returned to vague isolationism until something irks the populi. Thus questioning the purpose of NATO and we go full circle.

Oddly, Vance, despite being the most critical, has also put forward a narrative for NATO's ongoing existence that's coherent, he just pissed off the European elite by saying the quite part out loud. He seems to have found a way to get along now though.

After the 1987 visit to the Soviet Union Trump took out ads questioning the NATO system.
This the ad?
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It's about Japan and Saudi Arabia. Japan had a very different situation, having a pacifist constitution, and was economically booming such that it was considered a threat, and had zero ability to secure their own energy supply from the Gulf. This has nothing to do with the NATO system but is another case of US support creating conditions for success, which the US continues to maintain without a direct value proposition.

If there is something else more specific to NATO, in '87 the United States was the spending ~6.4% of GDP on the military, West Germany was 2.7%. Pointing out that the alliance structure looks more like military protection without recompense is a reasonable take.

This has always struck me as some form of odd national cuckoldry when I see it. Not saying everyone on the opposition are necessarily cucks but actively rooting for the undermining and destruction of the hegemony that you benefit from instead of just wanting to improve or reform it is just incredibly petty. It's throwing the whole family out with the bathwater so what? China or Russia can form a new multi-polar world that worsens your standing in life? "I want the people who hate me to win so the jews lose" while rooting for the majority jewish Russian oligarchs and overly corrupt CCP officials? Does the bull work sundays? I don't get it. The western anti-westerners will never not confound me. Someone help me out.
They live in a world where all of their problems are caused by the US Government and the Deep State. Thus everything the state does is evil because they do evil because they are evil. Tucker is brought up often, but another case would be Candace Owens who believes that space is fake and that the US only started the space program to cover up for satanic rituals to summon a moon child.

To many of these people the long term argument of maintaining the hegemony doesn't register. It's like asking a fish to think of a world without water, it has always been there and they don't understand that it exists.

Nothing concrete but no blame towards either side and a big sales pitch for a post war peace. I see big :optimistic:
 
how do americans benefit from nato though

natos major benefit to america was power projection into the european and mediterranean regions. this was useful because it allowed them to counter the USSR right at its doorstep, and made it so that if the cold war ever went hot, the fighting and destruction would take place far away from the american homeland.

but that was decades ago. today there is no ussr and no cold war.
the hostility between usa and ussr existed because the ussr was intent on achieving communist world domination by any means necessary, which made it a real and direct threat to the usa.
but russia does not pursue world communism, russia pursues territorial expansion in eastern europe and west asia. this is not a threat to america like the ussr was, so it is not clear why america should have an interest in countering it.
The benefit for the US was double.
The first spoken out load part was not having the soviet right on the Atlantic by keeping a buffer in between.
As a bonus having to contend with Western Europe meant that the soviets had to invest tons and tons of resources into a vast ground army limiting what it could invest in it's navy and air-force. So even if Western Europe fell it would still take the soviets decades to build up it's naval forces.
The second not spoken out load part was keeping the Europeans down.
During the whole Cold War Europe was spending a lower % of GDP on defense than the US was, but no one cared. Why? Well the US didn't just want to keep the soviets from the Atlantic, they didn't and still don't want any potential adversary on the Atlantic.
The US didn't complain about 80 years of not meeting NATO targets unless it got it's self involved in some other conflict and suddenly it wants the Europeans to spend more to help them directly or at least allow them to reduce their commitment in Europe.
But why would the Europeans spend more? they know that the US doesn't want them to use their armies unilaterally like in the Sues affair.
So what would they gain from building them up all it does is cost them but they get none of the benefits the US gets from it's military.

The bottom line is that the US just like the late Roman Republic is an empire whether it wants to be use that name or not.
It wants it's allies and vassals to be able to defend themselves enough that it doesn't have to expend to many resources defending them. But doesn't want them being powerful enough to break away or even worse challenge them.

That being said if Europe really wants to spook the US into recommitting to NATO, have a few Chinese submarines do a tour of Western European ports.
That will make the "keep hostile powers out of the Atlantic and keep the Europeans weak and friendly" thing very salient to the US again.

As to why the US benefits from it's empire.
It's has the world reserve currency meaning it can borrow and print money more or less freely as long as it doesn't spook the rest of the world.
It is the worlds dominant military and can start or stop any war it wants provided it wants to expend the resources to do so.
It can ask and if need be force it's allies to back it's foreign policy. Such as sanctions on Iran or keeping high tech from getting into Chinese hands.
It gets to cream off part of the wealth produced all across the world thanks to it's economic dominance.
Now most of those benefits aren't for the common man, at least not directly. But they are none the less very important to the US and the current standard of living in the US.
Lose the reserve currency and see how long the US can afford to keep running it's deficits, cut away the deficits and see how that reduced spending hurts the general economy and the standard of living.

I'm sure you'll just say well screw the world, let's just pull back to the US and fuck the rest of the world.
Sure go ahead, you will have strong powers on both the Pacific and the Atlantic oceans. Both will not be friendly to the US and now the US has to build and maintain a navy that can defend it from both, at the same time. It won't save the US any defense spending, it might even cost it more. But it will have lost the benefits it gets now that help fund it's defense.
 
Oddly, Vance, despite being the most critical, has also put forward a narrative for NATO's ongoing existence that's coherent, he just pissed off the European elite by saying the quite part out loud. He seems to have found a way to get along now though.
I feel like a large part of that is that Europe is wanting to invest more in domestic defense industries rather than stay too dependent on US weapons.

That's a lot of money that would have hopefully, in Washington's mind, have gone to American industries that Vance and the White House have worked hard to try scaring away by suggesting Europe's security is completely irrelevant to the US.

So Vance's softened rhetoric seems more about trying to smooth things over so people don't want to stop depending on US weapons.

Can defense become Europe’s economic growth machine?​

Microwaves, GPS, drones, duct tape, the PC. That’s just a short list of household goods that trace their origin to military research labs.

Their dual-use functionality is known as “military-civil fusion” in the parlance of the defense sector.

Now, with Europe about to unleash a flood of money into its defense sector, reversing decades of underinvestment, hopes are high that the continent’s dismal productivity record could tap into similar military ingenuity to turn things around.

Projects underway in Europe are already beginning to rival those of the United States in terms of ambition: from continental antimissile defenses to low Earth orbit satellite constellations that could provide alternatives to an increasingly unreliable Elon Musk’s Starlink.

The hope is that eventually all the investment drives technological innovation that spills over into the civilian economy, boosting productivity and paying for itself.

But is that realistic, or just wishful thinking? There’s no doubt that in the short term, economic strain is unavoidable, and will require cuts elsewhere.

“This is about spending more, spending better,” NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte said in a speech at the start of the year, acknowledging Washington’s long-standing complaints about Europe not doing enough for its own security. While two-thirds of NATO members now meet the alliance's target of spending 2 percent of gross domestic product on defense, it’s still “nowhere near enough,” Rutte said.

Rutte is getting his wish. The European Commission has opened the doors to €800 billion in military spending. In parallel, Germany, Europe’s largest economy, announced a plan to spend a trillion euros to upgrade its rickety national army and repair its infrastructure.

Robowars​

Where public money goes, private business follows, and there is a burgeoning crop of new defense players emerging to meet Europe’s defense needs.

Loïc Mougeolle is a defense contractor whose ties to the military go back a generation. His father worked in nuclear deterrence for the French navy; he, in turn, worked nine years for a defense firm until co-founding his own defense company, Comand AI, in 2022, after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

“We will never be able to produce more than a strategic adversary like China,” said Mougeolle, who is chief executive of the Paris-based Comand AI. “What we need to do is to be able to conduct operations, 10 times, 100 times more efficiently than them. This is the starting point of Comand AI.”

Mougeolle said he’s developed an artificial intelligence-based platform that can parse orders, develop task sequences and analyze terrain, all with the aim of greatly accelerating military response times. With Comand AI, “one staff officer can do the job of four,” he said.

For now, Comand AI only focuses on the defense sector, but Mougeolle said the technology his company has developed has civil applications as well. For example, it could help fleets of delivery robots navigate terrain to reach their destinations. Or it could help deal with coordinated cyberattacks on private businesses.

Off to the space races​

But entrusting new inventions that benefit everyday Europeans to innovative players like Comand AI, or European satellite and missile defense initiatives, is a gamble. While there is plenty of historical precedent, there is no certainty.

“Defense spending has been an important driver of technological advances in the U.S.,” said Chris Miller, professor at Tufts University and author of Chip War: The Fight for the World’s Most Critical Technology. “The Defense Department often funded basic research and prototyping that was then picked up by private firms and turned into world-changing civilian technologies, such as [micro]chips, GPS, or display screens.”

Research from the Kiel Institute published ahead of the Munich Security Conference in February estimated that Europe’s long-term productivity could rise by as much as 0.25 percent for each 1 percent of GDP spent on military research.

“There’s increasing evidence that some of the biggest breakthroughs, particularly in the high-tech area of computation, are associated with R&D that was developed during the Space Race,” said Ethan Ilzetzki, author of the paper and professor at the London School of Economics.

The competitive nature of war and the existential stakes at play encourage efficiency and innovation. While it’s perhaps not a precedent today’s EU would want to repeat (another Thirty Years' War, anyone?), the intense rivalries of early modern Europe helped give rise to its technological supremacy in the 18th and 19th centuries.

“There is an incentive here to be at the technological frontier, and even to push the technological frontier,” Ilzetzki said.

Plowshares to swords​

Plans to boost continental defenses have already drawn criticism, notably from those on the left who stress the importance of preserving the welfare state to avoid populist backlash.

“While military expenditures no longer know fiscal limits, social benefits and support for parental leave are already on the chopping block,” economists Tom Krebs and Isabella Weber argued in a column for Project Syndicate. “This is bound to further fuel dissatisfaction.”

The United Kingdom’s Labour government is a straw in the wind. It recently announced £4.8 billion in welfare cuts even as it boosted defense spending by £2.2 billion.

It’s not all pain. Military spending will give the economy a short-term boost. Defense contractors’ revenues will rise, manufacturing jobs will increase, and workers’ wages will cycle back into the economy. Daniel Kral, lead economist at Oxford Economics, said the scale of the plans is so huge that they could help “break Europe out of stagnation through domestic demand-led growth.”

But while the production of guns and bombs is counted in GDP figures, there is no long-term productivity boost from landmines that just lie in the ground, or howitzers under wraps in barracks. They may guarantee the system that generates GDP by protecting it from invasion, but their contribution to the final numbers is unquantifiable.

That’s a problem, given that Europe’s rearmament plans are going to be funded largely through debt. Government debt is already high, and adding to it could very well damage the economy in the long run.

Choices, choices

One way to square the circle is to invest smarter. To keep as much value in Europe as possible, the bloc will need to develop the products itself that it currently buys from the U.S. — and do so without further antagonizing a protectionist White House. More than half of European spending on procurement flows to U.S. firms.

French President Emmanuel Macron has called on governments to replace U.S. Patriot missiles and F-35s with European alternatives like SAMP/T systems and Rafale jets. The Berlaymont is explicitly backing local industry as part of its rearmament efforts.

But front-line countries like Poland or Finland want to prioritize immediate needs — even if that means buying from the U.S., South Korea or Israel.

“The Baltics see fire, Central Europe sees smoke, everyone else doesn't see anything,” said one European diplomat who asked to remain anonymous to speak candidly.

At present, too much of Europe’s defense spending goes to entrenched, slow-moving national champions. By contrast, Ilzetzki’s paper describes how the U.S. Department of Defense promotes competition through dual sourcing — purchasing weapon systems from more than one company at once to encourage competition. Often these tenders are more open-ended: Rather than favoring a certain technology with very fixed specifications that in effect favors established players, it will put out a call for open-ended solutions to a certain military problem.

Such tenders “reached a broader set of firms that are smaller, younger, and more technology-oriented … [and] also led to more patents and dual-use spillovers,” the Kiel report reads.

Partly because of that, about 16 percent of U.S. military spending goes to R&D, compared to only 4.5 percent in Europe. That helps U.S. companies keep their technological edge and makes them more likely to invent something useful in civilian life.

As such, to succeed in the long run, any coordinated European rearmament push will require capitals to do more to embrace new entrants — many more nimble and at the technological frontier, said Dan Breznitz, an expert in state-run innovation policy at the University of Toronto.

“You need to be able to disrupt the system,” he said. “You need to have an understanding that there will be new players. And some of those new players will become the new giants. And that's what may be something that I'm not sure that the EU is very good at doing, to be honest.”
 
I have a sneaking suspicion that there is more to the Trump/Vance shift in rhetoric.
They assumed that if they went to Europe and make a big statement about things that the right cares a lot about and they back the European far right.
This would end boosting the far right getting them into power. Getting the Trump administration people they feel they can work better with since they care about the same things.
But the problem is that all the Europeans that like Trump and the American right are already voting for the far right. So it doesn't win the European far right any votes.
To the contrary, Trump big surprise isn't popular in Europe so by openly and loudly siding with the European far right it is turning voters away from it.
But the European far right can't distance it's self from Trump and the broader American right because that would turn some of their own core supporters against them plus piss off Trump.
So the end result is the nothing burger elections in Germany. The AfD was polling at about 20% but polling always under estimates far right support. So it's probably closer to 25%. In Comes Vance, if they can push it to 25% or more AfD becomes the biggest party in Germany and can try to form a governing coalition. The Trump administration now has a like minded government in Germany. But it back fires and AfD only gets the 20% it was polling at, it isn't the biggest, it gets sidelined by the center right.
So seeing (and being told by European friends) that the administrations attempt to influence domestic politics in Europe haven't just failed but back fired they change their rhetoric.

Not going after NATO is one part of it but they have also toned down their reaction on say the AfD report.
 
I have a sneaking suspicion that there is more to the Trump/Vance shift in rhetoric.
They assumed that if they went to Europe and make a big statement about things that the right cares a lot about and they back the European far right.
This would end boosting the far right getting them into power. Getting the Trump administration people they feel they can work better with since they care about the same things.
But the problem is that all the Europeans that like Trump and the American right are already voting for the far right. So it doesn't win the European far right any votes.
To the contrary, Trump big surprise isn't popular in Europe so by openly and loudly siding with the European far right it is turning voters away from it.
But the European far right can't distance it's self from Trump and the broader American right because that would turn some of their own core supporters against them plus piss off Trump.
So the end result is the nothing burger elections in Germany. The AfD was polling at about 20% but polling always under estimates far right support. So it's probably closer to 25%. In Comes Vance, if they can push it to 25% or more AfD becomes the biggest party in Germany and can try to form a governing coalition. The Trump administration now has a like minded government in Germany. But it back fires and AfD only gets the 20% it was polling at, it isn't the biggest, it gets sidelined by the center right.
So seeing (and being told by European friends) that the administrations attempt to influence domestic politics in Europe haven't just failed but back fired they change their rhetoric.

Not going after NATO is one part of it but they have also toned down their reaction on say the AfD report.
Most far-right parties and candidates (especially in Eastern Europe) seem to have trouble distancing themselves from Russia and how they were originally funded.
 
The AfD was polling at about 20% but polling always under estimates far right support.
Most far-right parties and candidates (especially in Eastern Europe) seem to have trouble distancing themselves from Russia and how they were originally funded.
AfD is essentially AfR, exactly, so L/R alignment is just public relations. A sincere, pro-White, anti-Israel, anti-Immigration party has yet to be found. And Russia sure as hell doesn't fit that mold either.
 
Most far-right parties and candidates (especially in Eastern Europe) seem to have trouble distancing themselves from Russia and how they were originally funded.
It's certainly thunk provoking. Orbán and Fico are notorious Kremlin catamites. Yet both are fading forces even with Orbán's incumbent tilted voting system. Farage and Le Pen have records of Kremlin funding and connections, yet both have had to pivot to mildly Ukrainian position like Farage supporting Ukraine in NATO, which won't happen for years. Simion failed too. It suggests the Kremlin Euro political game is a bit weak now. Outside a small cohort of weirdos, Putin is toxic.

On a different angle:

France to transfer six Rocus demining vehicles to Ukraine.
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It's certainly thunk provoking. Orbán and Fico are notorious Kremlin catamites. Yet both are fading forces even with Orbán's incumbent tilted voting system. Farage and Le Pen have records of Kremlin funding and connections, yet both have had to pivot to mildly Ukrainian position like Farage supporting Ukraine in NATO, which won't happen for years. Simion failed too. It suggests the Kremlin Euro political game is a bit weak now. Outside a small cohort of weirdos, Putin is toxic.
Agree on all accounts, except the tilted voting system is actually likely going to mean Orbán's downfall will be more dramatic.

The voting system doesn't favor Orbán specifically besides some minor gerrymandering- it favors the largest party, which happened to be Fidesz for 15 years. Now that an opposition party has significantly and provably outpassed them they are actually contemplating making changes the other way, such as reducing the minimum % required for a party to get into parliament to get as many of the smaller parties in and split the opposition voterbase.

It's a double edged sword currently heading fast towards their necks.
 
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