Culture The fertility conversation we’re not having - Our economy isn’t built for the biological clock. But it can be.

1.webp
Paige Vickers/Vox; Getty Images

Everyone should have the right to decide if and when they have children. Yet over the past 50 years, the United States has built an economy that increasingly works against fertility — demanding more years in school and longer hours at work for people, especially women, in the years when it is biologically easiest for them to have children, and concentrating wealth and income among those past their reproductive prime.

As a result, American schools and workplaces are particularly ill-suited for supporting those who hope to start families earlier than average.

“If I were to complain about how society ‘has wronged me as a woman,’ it would be that it has treated my limited ‘fertility time’ with extreme disregard,” wrote Ruxandra Teslo, a genomics PhD student, recently on Substack. “At each step of the way I was encouraged to ‘be patient,’ do more training, told that ‘things will figure themselves out,’ even when I wanted and could have speedrun through things.”

The average age of a new mom is now 27.5, up from age 21 in 1970. I had no interest in having kids in my early twenties, but there are certainly reasons others might want that: Fertility decreases with age, and some find it easier to keep up with young children when they themselves are younger and have more energy. Others hope for larger families so may need to start conceiving earlier, or may prioritize making sure their own parents have many years to spend with grandkids.

Of course, discussing reproductive timelines is fraught. Having others invoke the fact that women experience a decline in fertility with age feels intrusive and insensitive. And the conversation is even trickier today, when anti-abortion activists are pushing a conservative pro-baby agenda from the highest echelons of government and the Heritage Foundation is putting out literature blaming falling birth rates on too many people going to graduate school. (The evidence for that is very weak.)

Yet it’s precisely in such moments that progressive leaders should offer clear alternatives that both respect women’s autonomy and ensure people can make less constrained choices.

If mainstream feminism ignores the barriers to early parenthood, the right will be all too eager to fill the void. “If the so-called feminists, as long as they play it by the elite rules, refuse to take seriously what [we] can do to support young families, then the right can move in and say, ‘You might as well give up on your stupid ideas and career aspirations,’” marriage historian Stephanie Coontz told me.

Not everyone wants to become a parent, but most women do still say they wish to have children one day. If we’re serious about reproductive justice, then it’s a mistake to ignore how our schools and workplaces have evolved to be broadly hostile to both fertility and parenthood. Having kids at a younger age is not inherently better — but for those who want to do it, the economy shouldn’t be working against them at every step.

Colleges need to support parents, pregnant students, and prospective parents​

Many women believe, correctly, that college and graduate education are important paths not only for their own financial well-being, but also to afford raising kids in a country that offers so little support to families. The idea that people can just up and abandon higher education to have kids, per the Heritage Foundation, isn’t serious.

“We’ve just done so much to obscure the reality and to make it seem like, oh, moms are asking for too much, or they’re postponing too long, or maybe they shouldn’t be going to school so much,” said Jennifer Glass, a sociologist at University of Texas Austin who studies fertility and gender. “What an idiotic thing to say. The only way that women can get wages that are at all comparable to what’s necessary to raise a family is by getting a college degree.”

Yet the US has built one of the longest, most expensive educational pipelines in the world.

One reason many American students take longer to finish undergraduate degrees (or don’t finish at all) is because of financial pressures that students abroad don’t face.

Nations like Germany, France, and Norway offer free or heavily subsidized university education, while others, including the UK and Australia, have manageable, easily navigable income-based repayment systems. American students are more likely to be juggling multiple jobs alongside coursework, stretching the time to graduation.

The timeline stretches even longer for medical, legal, and doctoral degrees — tacking on years of extra training and credentialing that aren’t required elsewhere.

“There’s been an increase in the number of years of schooling that is totally unnecessary,” Claudia Goldin, a Harvard economist and Nobel Prize winner, told me, pointing to, among other factors, the explosion of post-docs and pre-docs, plus pressure for applicants to acquire some work experience before even beginning their graduate studies.

“I went to graduate school immediately after college, and schools like UChicago and MIT had rules then that if you were there for more than four years, you paid tuition, so that incentivized people to finish,” she said.
When educational timelines keep stretching with no structural support for parenting, the result is predictable: some people delay having children — or abandon those plans entirely.

This isn’t to say there are no parents on university campuses. There are roughly 3 million undergraduates — one in five college students — in the US today who have kids. But student parents are too often rendered invisible because most colleges don’t collect data on them and harbor outdated assumptions about who even seeks higher education.

“Colleges and universities still cater to what is considered ‘traditional students’ — so 18- to 24-year-olds who are getting financial assistance from their parents,” said Jennifer Turner, a sociologist at the Institute for Women’s Policy Research.

Student parents are far less likely to be receiving financial help from their own families than students of the same age and background without kids — and in general they’re more likely to struggle to afford basic needs. But most campuses neglect their unique challenges and fail to provide them with resources like on-campus housing, kid-friendly spaces, and child care support.

The Trump administration’s new budget proposal calls for gutting the only federal program that helps student parents with child care. And while pregnant students are entitled to some federal protections under the Americans with Disabilities Act and Title IX, in practice many students never even learn about them, or face intense stigma for using them.

For graduate students in particular, there’s no shortage of examples of students receiving both implicit and explicit signals to delay childbearing. Research found women were twice as likely as men to cite child care and parenting as reasons for leaving academia.

The financial fears are not irrational​

Whether or not women want to have children in their early or mid-twenties, many feel they can’t — because the career paths they pursue require longer routes to stability.

Women are more often funneled into professions that demand extra time, whether through extended schooling, slower advancement, or the need to earn extra credentials to prove themselves. Many fields where women are concentrated, like education, social work, psychology, and nursing, require graduate training for higher-paying roles. In contrast, men are more likely to enter skilled trades or businesses where higher earnings are possible without advanced degrees.

Goldin, the economist, pointed to the problem of the “rat race equilibrium” — where individuals over-invest accumulating credentials not because doing so is intrinsically valuable, but because everyone else is doing the same. In this situation, falling behind the pack carries high costs.

“People want a great job, so they stay in graduate school ‘too long.’ Firms want the best lawyer, so they keep associates for ‘too long.’ I don’t know what the optimal length is. But I do know that the addition of so many more years means that women will be more discouraged than will men,” she told me.

These extended educational timelines feed directly into jobs that are also not designed to support parenting during a woman’s prime childbearing years. Early-career workers typically earn less, have more precarious roles and rigid schedules, and often face more pressure to be fully available to employers to prove their commitment and worth.

Some then move on to what Goldin calls “greedy careers”: Law firms, consulting companies, and hospitals that demand total availability, rewarding those who can work weekends and penalizing those who seek more predictable schedules. For many parents it’s a double bind: the educational trajectories and high-paying jobs that make raising kids affordable are often the same ones with demands that make balancing family life nearly impossible.

We can structure society differently​

Fertility tech hasn’t yet conquered the biological clock, but we did build this economy — which means we can rebuild it differently.

Advocating for more efficient and more affordable education isn’t a retreat from academic rigor, but a clear-eyed confrontation with institutions that remain indifferent at best to having children. The most forward-thinking places will see that compressed, focused educational paths aren’t diluting standards, but respecting the fullness of human lives and creating systems where intellectual achievement doesn’t demand reproductive sacrifice.

Exactly how to help students manage timelines will vary. For those looking at careers in math and science, for example, there may be opportunities to take advanced courses in high school. Others would benefit from more financial aid, or using experiential learning credit, or enrolling in accelerated BA/MA programs. Some employers should be rethinking their mandates for college degrees at all.

But even with educational reforms, parents would still face legal barriers that other groups don’t. It’s still legal in many cases to discriminate against parents in hiring or housing. Making parents a protected class would be a straightforward step toward making parenthood more compatible with economic security.

Stronger labor regulations could also curb workplace coercion, and policies like those in Scandinavia — which allow parents to reduce their work hours when raising young children — could make it easier to balance kids with holding down a job.

The rise of remote work offers additional paths forward, and expanding it could reduce the stark either/or choices many prospective parents face. And there are other policy ideas that could make parenthood more affordable even when people are early in their career. Other high-income countries offer parents monthly child allowances, baby bonuses, subsidized child care, and paid parental leave. The US could follow suit — and go further — by investing in affordable housing, reducing the cost of college, and decoupling health care from employment.

For now, our current system abdicates responsibility. As Glass points out, while parents are paying more to have children, it’s employers and governments that reap the benefits of those adult workers and taxpayers, without shouldering the decades-long costs of training and raising them.

“What no one wants to face is that 150 years ago, when everyone lived on farms, having children did not make you poor, but they do today,” said Glass. “Children used to benefit their parents, they were part of the dominion of the patriarch, and when children did well the patriarch benefited. Now it’s employers and governments who benefit from well-raised children.”

It’s not feminist to ignore this​

I understand the reluctance to have these conversations. We don’t want the government poking around in our bedrooms, especially when some lawmakers are already on a mission to restrict reproductive freedom. It’s tempting to say policymakers and institutions should just shut up about any further discussion regarding having kids.

But that’s not serving people, either. Many other countries already confront these challenges with much more deliberate care. Honest conversations about fertility don’t need to be about telling women when or whether to have children — they should be about removing the artificial barriers that make it feel impossible to have kids at different stages of life.

This would all certainly be much easier if men stepped up to take these pressures more seriously. “If men felt as compelled as women to take time off, if men were experiencing the same thing, I think we’d get a lot more creative,” said Coontz.

We should continue investing in fertility technology, and expanding access to those options for people who want to delay childbearing or may need help conceiving. But IVF and egg freezing are never going to be the right tools for everyone, and people deserve the support to have children as they study and enter the workforce, too. Biology isn’t destiny, but we shouldn’t ignore it.

Article Link

Archive
 
Last edited:
And that change was largely a result of effective birth control like the pill being made available. It didn't just give women "choice." It allowed them to sink into youthful delusions about the biological reality of their fertility window (delusions that were, and are, encouraged by other women for dubious reasons).

Most kids who have ever been born were probably "mistakes." That's still probably true, actually. Everyone wants more choice, but the pill fundamentally broke something that then broke a lot of other fundamental social and biological things that were downstream if it. We just didn't evolve to live like this, and it shows.
I don't give a rats' ass for Catholicism but the Pope who more or less said "The pill is the end of the social contract"...well God damn he was sure vindicated by history.
There are plenty of men out there who’d happily be fathers but who can’t find a woman who isn’t pure trash or demented with feminism.
This is literally why 'inceldom' is on such a rise.

20 years ago a rainbow-haired freak who weighed 300 pounds was an ANOMALY on a dating site. Now they are the norm, along with coalburning 'single mothers' or utter NPC's proudly flying the clot-shot sticker on their profile and stating "no republicans" or something else that only the most desperate of men would even think of trying to date. Assuming they were allowed within 10 yards of the 'woman' in question.
 
Last edited:
Nah, women are the gatekeepers of relationships as well. At any point in time she has the free will and agency to leave the relationship, hence the adage "she's not yours it's just your turn".
A gatekeeper controls initial access, not ongoing continuance. Sure, a woman can end a relationship once she’s ’past the gatekeeper’ but she can’t force a man into one. That’s what a gatekeeper is.
 
They're happier barefoot, pregnant, in the kitchen, with a husband who takes care of them.
Let me guess, going to cite "BPD" ? It's now the "have sex incel" of the chudsphere, incredible. Remember that drug abuse among women is lower tham it used to be in the first few decades after this romantized past ended.
Btw there were several periods this was not the norm, from hunter-gatherer days to specific jobs through history.
This entire discourse is discourse is so two faced and even cringier than usual blackpills or radfems that are at least upfront about their own thoughts.
 
Last edited:
Btw there were several periods this was not the norm, from hunter-gatherer days to specific jobs through history.
This entire discourse is discourse is so two faced and even cringier than usual blackpills or radfems that are at least upfront about their own thoughts.
Exceptions do not disprove rules.

I'm not blackpilled. I just want to take women's rights away. I am what a blackpiller/incel might call a Chad. So I don't come at it from their perspective. My perspective is that being female is a disability. Both physical and mental. We don't let retarded children make decisions for themselves, much less run society. We shouldn't with women, either.
 
Exceptions do not disprove rules.
Those "exceptions" happened way too often to prove your point, and I did not the "have sex incel" thing either, or that you came from those ideas
My perspective is that being female is a disability. Both physical and mental. We don't let retarded children make decisions for themselves, much less run society. We shouldn't with women, either.
My point stands firm.
 
I see this thread has turned into a shitshow about how women are evil, but my earlier point about too much education required for lucrative jobs still stands. It's hilarious that you think women can't make a lot of money and also have kids. You can have good jobs for women and men, but if all jobs other than burger flipping require 6 years of college (which will put you in huge amounts of debt), then it's much harder to also have kids in your fertile years. I'm sure men also don't want to have kids when they have five figures worth of debt to college.

Putting women back in the kitchen to pop out babies evey year isn't going to fix the cost of living or all the hoops you have to jump through to have a middle class household.
 
My point stands firm.
Pre-civilization. Women were war brides and rape slaves who were the prizes of whichever men survived the constant tribal conflict and harshness of mother nature. Civilization. Women were wives, concubines, and slaves to those men who were able to acquire enough wealth to provide for them, or was born into the wealth in the case of nobility. Jewish Child Rape Economic Zone Society. Women are supported by the government both financially and through regulation in order to push them into some level of parity with men. In all cases, the woman has a man keeping her alive. They do not keep themselves alive.
I see this thread has turned into a shitshow about how women are evil
The thread is about the fertility crisis. The reason behind the fertility crisis is women's behavior. Not too hard to cause it to go that way.
 
The reason behind the fertility crisis is women's behavior.
There’s also some kind of environmental driver. Testosterone levels and sperm counts are dropping for example. They’re still high enough that most people are OK but if that kind of rate of drop persists, that may not be true for much longer.
I don’t think women particularly want to be slaves again. I know I wouldn’t fancy that. You’re asking half of humanity to willingly vote for their own enslavement, which isn’t going to happen willingly. I’m sure you wouldn’t vote for it happily go into serf feudal structure.
If half of humanity gets a bad deal, and there’s a policy or social shift that makes their lives better, they will take it. And they will continue to take it as long as it makes life better in the short term no matter what the long term consequences are. That creates a rachet to shift social behaviour and it doesn’t have a brake
The same short term behavioural driver spans the sexes - everyone’s fat because they want short term pleasure over long term health for example.
What we need to do as a society is find a balance point. We had things pretty good for a generation or so - about 1978 to early 2000s things weren’t bad. Decent equality without too much madness. Now we’ve swung on many points too far. We are too liberal on all sorts of deviancy for example. We swing past the ‘ok be gay just be normal’ point and now we’ve got Troon sex pests and you can be fired for not affirming pronouns.
We need BALANCE. There has to be some change back and because these things tend to overshoot it’ll be unpleasant and messy, before it finally settles. Or perhaps we simply go into another cycle of total societal breakdown and start again from the ashes.
 
I don’t think women particularly want to be slaves again
I dont think you understand, you are slave, I am a slave, we're slaves. its just now we're both slaves to an uncaring state; an outcome I dont believe is better for either of us, but it sounds like you made up your mind. If you want to be equal in all ways to men, you make them your enemy, a mans equal is a rival, its only natural that competition for the same stability theyre seeking will play out that way, and so you will always be a rival. If thats really what women want, then it'll be that way, but nobody can complain when neither wins.
 
I dont think you understand, you are slave, I am a slave, we're slaves. its just now we're both slaves to an uncaring state; an outcome I dont believe is better for either of us, but it sounds like you made up your mind. If you want to be equal in all ways to men, you make them your enemy, a mans equal is a rival, its only natural that competition for the same stability theyre seeking will play out that way, and so you will always be a rival. If thats really what women want, then it'll be that way, but nobody can complain when neither wins.
My husband likes that I make a lot of money. I like that he makes a lot of money. I don't think he and I are rivals in any way. We want to leave lots of money and property to our kids. How is that not a mutually beneficial goal?
 
My husband likes that I make a lot of money. I like that he makes a lot of money. I don't think he and I are rivals in any way. We want to leave lots of money and property to our kids. How is that not a mutually beneficial goal?
Hey Im glad that worked for you, but isnt this a self report if youre married (and I assume have children?), have you heard of the idea that not all X is Y? Im glad you've got it worked out, but obviously most people, particularly now, havent; as far as I can tell, everyone wants to climb as high as they can, including women, and it just so happens to stomp over the idea of having kids since they wait till its not as viable, and frankly, men dont really tend to select for that sort of thing. I can tell you Ive never considered any woman for the amount of money they make, its meaningless to me.
 
Aside from everything else T levels dropping probably has a lot to do with sedentary lifestyles making a lot of people unhealthy, plus disordered eating a lot of people have issues with and won't admit. Fat aromatizes T into E or something, doesn't it? T is also somewhat reactive, the more vigorous a lifestyle you have, the higher your levels are likely to be. Or at least that's how I understand it. While us women are more cyclical. A lot of people are just flat severely unhealthy point blank period. There are a variety of reasons for this but I think that's the biggest issue.

A lot of people live lifestyles where they're socially isolated and stressed. Shit sucks for a lot of people and having a family is sold in the mainstream as something joyless and soul crushing.

There are a lot of variables that make having a family suck for a lot of people right now. Narrowing it down to any one thing is kind of retarded all in all.

Thinking it will be at all rainbows to start a family when your knees have been going bad for at least five years is crazy work though. I don't know how anyone capable of being highly educated and nominally successful with their career couldn't ever figure that out on their own.
 
Hey Im glad that worked for you, but isnt this a self report if youre married (and I assume have children?), have you heard of the idea that not all X is Y? Im glad you've got it worked out, but obviously most people, particularly now, havent; as far as I can tell, everyone wants to climb as high as they can, including women, and it just so happens to stomp over the idea of having kids since they wait till its not as viable, and frankly, men dont really tend to select for that sort of thing. I can tell you Ive never considered any woman for the amount of money they make, its meaningless to me.
It doesn't really matter what appeals to you, if you don't want your kids living in some shitty ghetto then you'll need a lot of money. It's not about competition among the sexes or feminism or anything else it's about grabbing as many resources for your offspring as possible. Work and career doesn't stop you from having kids. The conditions of work today (like forcing everyone to go into 5 figures of debt and years of college to have a good job) do. Not to mention the cost of living has skyrocketed. You can't raise 5 kids in some one bedroom apartment, regardless of whether you have a stay at home tradwife or not. I'm also pretty sure microplastics and the like interfere with our fertility, behavior and even our desire to have kids.
 
If you want to be equal in all ways to men
Women and men are not equals in all ways and I’ve never argued they are. We are complementary to each other, both sexes have roles that are needed in a society. A man cannot gestate a child and a woman cannot achieve certain strength based criteria. We are different.
That does not imply that women are slaves to men. My husband and i are equals in standing. We earn a similar amount. We both have phds. We have children, and we work together to give them the best life we can. Are we equals in every thing? No. I’m better at some stuff, and he’s better at others. We are well aware of that. We divvy up the responsibilities of life in a way that suits our strengths and compensates for our weaknesses. The couples I know who have what I’d call successful lives (stable job, family, no trainwrecks) all do the same thing. My parents were the same, they did their part and they respect each other and compensate for each others strengths and weaknesses.
They treat each other as equally respected partners overall, and they recognise the things that their other half is better at.
I would never ever want to be with a man who thought I was his ‘inherent inferior.’ Does your wife happily accept that she’s your inferior?
 
I don’t think women particularly want to be slaves again. I know I wouldn’t fancy that. You’re asking half of humanity to willingly vote for their own enslavement, which isn’t going to happen willingly. I’m sure you wouldn’t vote for it happily go into serf feudal structure.
It's going to happen one way or another. If we allow women to continue as they are, they will drive our people to a tiny minority, and allow our society to be inherited by patriarchal foreigners, particularly muslims, indians, and africans. Then their rights will be stripped from them, and they become barefoot, pregnant, in the kitchen. So their days of girlbossing are numbered anyway.
 
Does your wife happily accept that she’s your inferior?
Nobody has stated anything about inferiority... well, you implied that having different gender roles (IE: man goes to work, woman raises kids), would be slavery, so really you implied that by saying gender roles that conformed to previous norms, like one income households, full time employment for men, full time child care for women, was in fact slavery.

To me, saying you want to go to work and have the same expectations as men, that is to be providers, workers, scholars, however you wish to view it, means that you will compete in the same space as men.

I dont view women as inferior or slaves, but we do serve different purposes, and to me it seems like you implied that having a different role then men would be slavery. Tell me this; why is there an issue today with marriage and child care? To me it seems like its because women want to occupy the same role as men, but men cannot occupy the role women played, it simply doesnt seem to work that way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Arv3k
Remember that drug abuse among women is lower tham it used to be in the first few decades after this romantized past ended.
“…but I’m not going to cite sources.”
Btw there were several periods this was not the norm, from hunter-gatherer days to specific jobs through history.
“…but I’m not going to give specific examples.”
This entire discourse is discourse is so two faced and even cringier than usual blackpills or radfems that are at least upfront about their own thoughts.
“…but I’m not going to stop posting in it.”

You’re asking half of humanity to willingly vote for their own enslavement
Having to go to college for 4-6 years then spend another 10-12 working to pay it off before you can consider having a kid is a strange kind of liberation.
 
well, you implied that having different gender roles (IE: man goes to work, woman raises kids), would be slavery,
No that’s not what I said. I was talking about the rachet effect that happens when women are in the state of slaves you described in the past (tribal/spoils of war etc.) If things are dire for a group, they will seize any opportunity to improve. They aren’t looking 1200 years into the future, they’re thinking about next week ‘hey, these Viking dudes are nice looking and they treat the women better, not going to resist being dragged off here maybe…’
Women seized the opportunity to take the pill because for married women it allowed spacing - kids are great, love ‘em, but I wouldn’t want one a year for twenty years. The little click on the rachet occurs and now single women get prescribed it too, and they like having fun. Do you see what I’m saying? Each little bit of freedom is taken because it’s a short term gain.
There is nothing wrong with having strong gender roles. My own opinion is that society can probably tolerate a set percentage of people breaking them but not more than that.
It's going to happen one way or another.
I keep trying to point this out to people. If you have such a massive outgroup preference that your actively hurting your own, and if you’re emasculating the young men, then the outcome will be that a group with high in group preference who didn’t emasculate their young men will come in and take over. Right now those groups all treat women like cattle and they aren’t going to be up for changing that
 
when women are in the state of slaves you described in the past (tribal/spoils of war etc.)
I never gestured to anything further than the atomic family, Id appreciate if you dont project that onto me, it needlessly muddies the conversation if you evoke an idea neither of us are talking about. But I dont think you answered the second half of my post, why do you think people arnt having kids or marrying?
 
Back