Culture The fertility conversation we’re not having - Our economy isn’t built for the biological clock. But it can be.

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Everyone should have the right to decide if and when they have children. Yet over the past 50 years, the United States has built an economy that increasingly works against fertility — demanding more years in school and longer hours at work for people, especially women, in the years when it is biologically easiest for them to have children, and concentrating wealth and income among those past their reproductive prime.

As a result, American schools and workplaces are particularly ill-suited for supporting those who hope to start families earlier than average.

“If I were to complain about how society ‘has wronged me as a woman,’ it would be that it has treated my limited ‘fertility time’ with extreme disregard,” wrote Ruxandra Teslo, a genomics PhD student, recently on Substack. “At each step of the way I was encouraged to ‘be patient,’ do more training, told that ‘things will figure themselves out,’ even when I wanted and could have speedrun through things.”

The average age of a new mom is now 27.5, up from age 21 in 1970. I had no interest in having kids in my early twenties, but there are certainly reasons others might want that: Fertility decreases with age, and some find it easier to keep up with young children when they themselves are younger and have more energy. Others hope for larger families so may need to start conceiving earlier, or may prioritize making sure their own parents have many years to spend with grandkids.

Of course, discussing reproductive timelines is fraught. Having others invoke the fact that women experience a decline in fertility with age feels intrusive and insensitive. And the conversation is even trickier today, when anti-abortion activists are pushing a conservative pro-baby agenda from the highest echelons of government and the Heritage Foundation is putting out literature blaming falling birth rates on too many people going to graduate school. (The evidence for that is very weak.)

Yet it’s precisely in such moments that progressive leaders should offer clear alternatives that both respect women’s autonomy and ensure people can make less constrained choices.

If mainstream feminism ignores the barriers to early parenthood, the right will be all too eager to fill the void. “If the so-called feminists, as long as they play it by the elite rules, refuse to take seriously what [we] can do to support young families, then the right can move in and say, ‘You might as well give up on your stupid ideas and career aspirations,’” marriage historian Stephanie Coontz told me.

Not everyone wants to become a parent, but most women do still say they wish to have children one day. If we’re serious about reproductive justice, then it’s a mistake to ignore how our schools and workplaces have evolved to be broadly hostile to both fertility and parenthood. Having kids at a younger age is not inherently better — but for those who want to do it, the economy shouldn’t be working against them at every step.

Colleges need to support parents, pregnant students, and prospective parents​

Many women believe, correctly, that college and graduate education are important paths not only for their own financial well-being, but also to afford raising kids in a country that offers so little support to families. The idea that people can just up and abandon higher education to have kids, per the Heritage Foundation, isn’t serious.

“We’ve just done so much to obscure the reality and to make it seem like, oh, moms are asking for too much, or they’re postponing too long, or maybe they shouldn’t be going to school so much,” said Jennifer Glass, a sociologist at University of Texas Austin who studies fertility and gender. “What an idiotic thing to say. The only way that women can get wages that are at all comparable to what’s necessary to raise a family is by getting a college degree.”

Yet the US has built one of the longest, most expensive educational pipelines in the world.

One reason many American students take longer to finish undergraduate degrees (or don’t finish at all) is because of financial pressures that students abroad don’t face.

Nations like Germany, France, and Norway offer free or heavily subsidized university education, while others, including the UK and Australia, have manageable, easily navigable income-based repayment systems. American students are more likely to be juggling multiple jobs alongside coursework, stretching the time to graduation.

The timeline stretches even longer for medical, legal, and doctoral degrees — tacking on years of extra training and credentialing that aren’t required elsewhere.

“There’s been an increase in the number of years of schooling that is totally unnecessary,” Claudia Goldin, a Harvard economist and Nobel Prize winner, told me, pointing to, among other factors, the explosion of post-docs and pre-docs, plus pressure for applicants to acquire some work experience before even beginning their graduate studies.

“I went to graduate school immediately after college, and schools like UChicago and MIT had rules then that if you were there for more than four years, you paid tuition, so that incentivized people to finish,” she said.
When educational timelines keep stretching with no structural support for parenting, the result is predictable: some people delay having children — or abandon those plans entirely.

This isn’t to say there are no parents on university campuses. There are roughly 3 million undergraduates — one in five college students — in the US today who have kids. But student parents are too often rendered invisible because most colleges don’t collect data on them and harbor outdated assumptions about who even seeks higher education.

“Colleges and universities still cater to what is considered ‘traditional students’ — so 18- to 24-year-olds who are getting financial assistance from their parents,” said Jennifer Turner, a sociologist at the Institute for Women’s Policy Research.

Student parents are far less likely to be receiving financial help from their own families than students of the same age and background without kids — and in general they’re more likely to struggle to afford basic needs. But most campuses neglect their unique challenges and fail to provide them with resources like on-campus housing, kid-friendly spaces, and child care support.

The Trump administration’s new budget proposal calls for gutting the only federal program that helps student parents with child care. And while pregnant students are entitled to some federal protections under the Americans with Disabilities Act and Title IX, in practice many students never even learn about them, or face intense stigma for using them.

For graduate students in particular, there’s no shortage of examples of students receiving both implicit and explicit signals to delay childbearing. Research found women were twice as likely as men to cite child care and parenting as reasons for leaving academia.

The financial fears are not irrational​

Whether or not women want to have children in their early or mid-twenties, many feel they can’t — because the career paths they pursue require longer routes to stability.

Women are more often funneled into professions that demand extra time, whether through extended schooling, slower advancement, or the need to earn extra credentials to prove themselves. Many fields where women are concentrated, like education, social work, psychology, and nursing, require graduate training for higher-paying roles. In contrast, men are more likely to enter skilled trades or businesses where higher earnings are possible without advanced degrees.

Goldin, the economist, pointed to the problem of the “rat race equilibrium” — where individuals over-invest accumulating credentials not because doing so is intrinsically valuable, but because everyone else is doing the same. In this situation, falling behind the pack carries high costs.

“People want a great job, so they stay in graduate school ‘too long.’ Firms want the best lawyer, so they keep associates for ‘too long.’ I don’t know what the optimal length is. But I do know that the addition of so many more years means that women will be more discouraged than will men,” she told me.

These extended educational timelines feed directly into jobs that are also not designed to support parenting during a woman’s prime childbearing years. Early-career workers typically earn less, have more precarious roles and rigid schedules, and often face more pressure to be fully available to employers to prove their commitment and worth.

Some then move on to what Goldin calls “greedy careers”: Law firms, consulting companies, and hospitals that demand total availability, rewarding those who can work weekends and penalizing those who seek more predictable schedules. For many parents it’s a double bind: the educational trajectories and high-paying jobs that make raising kids affordable are often the same ones with demands that make balancing family life nearly impossible.

We can structure society differently​

Fertility tech hasn’t yet conquered the biological clock, but we did build this economy — which means we can rebuild it differently.

Advocating for more efficient and more affordable education isn’t a retreat from academic rigor, but a clear-eyed confrontation with institutions that remain indifferent at best to having children. The most forward-thinking places will see that compressed, focused educational paths aren’t diluting standards, but respecting the fullness of human lives and creating systems where intellectual achievement doesn’t demand reproductive sacrifice.

Exactly how to help students manage timelines will vary. For those looking at careers in math and science, for example, there may be opportunities to take advanced courses in high school. Others would benefit from more financial aid, or using experiential learning credit, or enrolling in accelerated BA/MA programs. Some employers should be rethinking their mandates for college degrees at all.

But even with educational reforms, parents would still face legal barriers that other groups don’t. It’s still legal in many cases to discriminate against parents in hiring or housing. Making parents a protected class would be a straightforward step toward making parenthood more compatible with economic security.

Stronger labor regulations could also curb workplace coercion, and policies like those in Scandinavia — which allow parents to reduce their work hours when raising young children — could make it easier to balance kids with holding down a job.

The rise of remote work offers additional paths forward, and expanding it could reduce the stark either/or choices many prospective parents face. And there are other policy ideas that could make parenthood more affordable even when people are early in their career. Other high-income countries offer parents monthly child allowances, baby bonuses, subsidized child care, and paid parental leave. The US could follow suit — and go further — by investing in affordable housing, reducing the cost of college, and decoupling health care from employment.

For now, our current system abdicates responsibility. As Glass points out, while parents are paying more to have children, it’s employers and governments that reap the benefits of those adult workers and taxpayers, without shouldering the decades-long costs of training and raising them.

“What no one wants to face is that 150 years ago, when everyone lived on farms, having children did not make you poor, but they do today,” said Glass. “Children used to benefit their parents, they were part of the dominion of the patriarch, and when children did well the patriarch benefited. Now it’s employers and governments who benefit from well-raised children.”

It’s not feminist to ignore this​

I understand the reluctance to have these conversations. We don’t want the government poking around in our bedrooms, especially when some lawmakers are already on a mission to restrict reproductive freedom. It’s tempting to say policymakers and institutions should just shut up about any further discussion regarding having kids.

But that’s not serving people, either. Many other countries already confront these challenges with much more deliberate care. Honest conversations about fertility don’t need to be about telling women when or whether to have children — they should be about removing the artificial barriers that make it feel impossible to have kids at different stages of life.

This would all certainly be much easier if men stepped up to take these pressures more seriously. “If men felt as compelled as women to take time off, if men were experiencing the same thing, I think we’d get a lot more creative,” said Coontz.

We should continue investing in fertility technology, and expanding access to those options for people who want to delay childbearing or may need help conceiving. But IVF and egg freezing are never going to be the right tools for everyone, and people deserve the support to have children as they study and enter the workforce, too. Biology isn’t destiny, but we shouldn’t ignore it.

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Falling fertility rates are like climate doomerism for conservatives. The whole "problem" will resolve itself naturally eventually. Population ebb and flow is normal.
 
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Falling fertility rates are like climate doomerism for conservatives. The whole "problem" will resolve itself naturally eventually. Population ebb and flow is normal.

This is not normal 'ebb and flow'; it is artificially induced by at least a dozen different factors. Not to mention that "resolving itself" (ie; doing nothing needed to correct the issue) is literally guaranteed to cause the total collapse of multiple 1st world nations in the very near future.

And the cope that the planet-wide birthrate drop is primarily about "waaah me no have dolla" is so fucking retarded I could faceplam hard enough to leave a hand shaped dent in my forehead.

Yeah this is power leveling. It's relevant to the discussion.
My great-grandmother raised 9 kids of her own plus 2 more they adopted. Rural Electrification didn't even get to the nearest TOWN until she was in her 40's let alone out to their farm. Same with hundreds of other families who often barely had any cash to their names, televisions or video game consoles were nigh-unknown, they did without stuff that would cause almost anyone born in the last half century would have a mental breakdown if they suddenly went away for good.

Yet a family with only four kids was considered 'small'.

And that's just going back to 1900. The broke-cope gets even stupider when you go back to the log cabin era where having more books than a family Bible and a few 'readers' to homeschool your children was considered having disposable income.

It. Was. Not. About. The. Money.​
 
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This is not normal 'ebb and flow'; it is artificially induced by at least a dozen different factors. Not to mention that "resolving itself" (ie; doing nothing needed to correct the issue) is literally guaranteed to cause the total collapse of multiple 1st world nations in the very near future.
How do we know that? How do we know this hasn't happened throughout history? Even if we did, there was an unusual and unprecedented baby boom in most countries last century. Many places are simply overcrowded. Levels will probably resume a balance over time, just like in animal populations.
 
The fertility rate drops are just a result of a luxurious life style.
I think it’s density rather than luxury, but luxury can be a function of density too (the kind of high tech stuff arose in an urban dense setting.)
We talk about this in the thread on deep thoughts, my belief is that it’s primarily density. Yes even rural areas - the web and modern communications creates a sense of density, even in people who aren’t packed like sardines. Populations seem to crash once they hit a specific density in experimental settings - it can be competition for resources, or waste products poisoning them but even bacteria in a flask will crash past a point. We are at that point
 
It's incredible the leasing system is that bad in the UK...six months isn't even enough time to get settled in, let alone change your lease terms. When I rented my apartment you'd get a substantial discount the longer term you signed up for, up to 14 months.
At this point in my life I won't even consider a lease that isn't at minimum a 2 year term.
 
I think it’s density rather than luxury, but luxury can be a function of density too (the kind of high tech stuff arose in an urban dense setting.)
We talk about this in the thread on deep thoughts, my belief is that it’s primarily density. Yes even rural areas - the web and modern communications creates a sense of density, even in people who aren’t packed like sardines. Populations seem to crash once they hit a specific density in experimental settings - it can be competition for resources, or waste products poisoning them but even bacteria in a flask will crash past a point. We are at that point
It may be density as well, however:

Third world countries like India, Egypt, Iran etc. have a very dense population. Yet they don't have any problems with multiplying.

Which to me, signals, that it isn't the density that plays the main role.

In the experiment I've mentioned, they didn't introduce that many mice. They did, however, give them unlimited amount of resources.

And after all, luxury and density do corelate.

Yes even rural areas - the web and modern communications creates a sense of density
The web and modern communications are a part of a luxurious life style.
 
The web and modern communications are a part of a luxurious life style.
Yes I’d agree there. Iran etc are also experiencing a decline in birth rates - it’s really a swift drop and nowhere outside of very specific mainly religious communities seems immune. We have a thread in deep thoughts discussing it in a lot more detail/spergery
 
Free childcare and benefits for those going to school(real school, not an on-line POS), free education and perhaps the first year of employment would be a good jumping board. Other countries manage low or free education and I don’t see why we can’t either - for all the bad things we invest in, good education is almost certainly the most likely to
Provide a rate of return.
 
Free childcare
free education
Lots of post-soviet countries like Russia, Ukraine, Belarus (and some more) have it. Yet the birth rate still drops.

Besides, "free" anything means lots of tax money. High taxes wouldn't be a good encouragement for young people to start a family.

Also, when something is "free", the quality of it drops to an according level. Google Russian public schools.

first year of employment
"First year of employment" thing is diabolical. What if a person is a good-for-nothing idiot? Should we just close our eyes and forcefully shove them into some company that will unavoidably suffer losses because of them? Imagine you're a businessman who's business finally prospers, and then, all of a sudden, government forces you to hire around 10 dumbasses who'll make thing much worse. This is instability and instability isn't a thing that encourages people to start families.

Forceful employment is socialism, and socialism is cancer.

And if we talk about free colleges: you do realise dumb and lazy people will choose easy bullshit specialities like "gender studies"? What kind of employment do you think they'll be good for? And let me remind you, that "free" means you'll pay for them with your money.
 
Evidence?

Indians are around 20% of the world population. White people are about 10% (some suggest even lower). Clearly, Indians are better at multiplying.
Their birth rates are dropping too - all the data is linked in the birth rates thread I think.
The only places that don’t seem to be hit aren’t really places but peoples - the Amish, various hyper religious groups, that kind of thing.
Is there any data for genuinely untouched places I wonder? I guess we wouldn’t know
 
Their birth rates are dropping too - all the data is linked in the birth rates thread I think.
The only places that don’t seem to be hit aren’t really places but peoples - the Amish, various hyper religious groups, that kind of thing.
Is there any data for genuinely untouched places I wonder? I guess we wouldn’t know
Who would have thought traditionalism and morality that has continued the human race for thousands of years actually produced people???
 
I know it’s shocking isn’t it? Next you’ll be telling me societies had reasons to oppress certain behaviours and groups with behavioural taboos….
how bigoted!
it seems the human race will die out because doing things that work is for meanies
 
how bigoted!
it seems the human race will die out because doing things that work is for meanies
I think what frustrates me is there’s never any honest acknowledgement of this. Men and women are different. Biology drives us to a large extent. But at the same time we don’t always need to be slaves to the past. We can’t ignore the past though.
Almost all rules and taboos are there for a very good reason. A very few of those taboos just don’t apply any more - or they apply in different ways. Prohibitions on certain foods for example could be because they were associated with disease, parasites, algal contaminations for seafood, or even seasonal taboos to prevent over harvesting. For the latter if we are now farming the thing then a seasonal wild harvest taboo can be dropped as long as we understand we only eat the grown stuff and don’t go back to poaching it.
Behavioural taboos are probably still pretty relevant. We don’t need to be putting women in menstruation huts, hopefully. But we understand that taboos on post birth sex are reasonable (massive infection risk) so some previous taboos are now coded into medical guidelines. Others are the exact opposite (gay everything.)
My point is that we have to acknowledge why things were done and how they were done and understand that before we have any hope of asking if we can lessen or drop a taboo. Our goal should be understanding why, and then asking ourselves what kind of society we want to live in.
Something like sex before marriage would be a good example. It’s always happened, it’s historically been shamed intensively and in some places prosecuted with severe penalties. Do we want to go back to that severe punishment ? Probably not. A bit of shaming? Might be good for us. Should we acknowledge that a body count in the dozens before you’re 25 is pretty unhealthy and bad for you physically and mentally? Yes we certainly should, and we should probably forge ahead with way that knowledge and the kind of ‘ok well the high school/ college GF didn’t work out but the next one I married’ sort of thing being Ok and marrying young or older being Ok but not shagging half of tinder or piss orgies.
But there’s never any kind of acknowledging that previous societies were onto something with social taboos - because that opens up a massive can of worms on some very protected groups.
 
That dang dirty nationalist socialism is right again! You'd better work 80 hours per week in competition with jeets and illegals to pay for those tax cuts for billionaires.

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Fun fact: Belarus has one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world.
Fun fact fertility rate in islamic republic of Iran is 1.68

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Fun fact Best korea which is communist and has banned abortions and birth control still has DRUMROLL fertility rate 1.79 births per woman (2022)

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The thread is about the fertility crisis. The reason behind the fertility crisis is women's behavior. Not too hard to cause it to go that way.
Ah yes BLAME WOMEN

Men taking accountability for this happening ? HMMM? forever girlfriends dont exist amirite ? Men wasting time of young women dont exist, men lying about their fertility dont exist .
 
Fun fact fertility rate in islamic republic of Iran is 1.68
I don't remotely support banning abortion or forcing women to stay at home. The GDR had the highest female labor force participation in the world and provided generous benefits in terms of maternity leave, childcare, free healthcare and subsidized housing. Iran and North Korea are oppressive theocracies more concerned with weapons than wheat for their workers.

The problem is there isn't the infrastructure to support families due to this broken system that focus on profit in lieu of everything else. Me, me, me, I, I, I until you're the only one left. Then what good will all your money do you alone in a dead world with no future?
 
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