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Isn't the legend around the Boo saga that Toriyama basically told them he'd only do it if they'd fuck off and let him do what he wants? Or that they bribed him with essentially free reign?
Dragon Ball Thread - RIP Akira Toriyama
- Thread starter X-Shaped Weeaboo
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- Sep 16, 2024
That might not be the case entirely, but there's some kernels of truth to that belief.
A lot of the times, beloved manga within Shonen Jump (or just in general) will absolutely nosedive in quality near the last parts of the stories, because at that point, Shonen Jump (or whoever) will consider the story "safe" and thus fine to be handed off to more inexperienced editors that are less likely to step in and stop the Mangaka from doing whatever dumb shit that he wants.
Good examples being Naruto's last arcs being stupid Uchihawank slogs, Bleach's last arc being a rushed confusing mess with the opposite of a satisfying conclusion (at least Kubo has the excuse that he was ill) and then One Piece being... well, One Piece, where Oda just decided that he needed to one-up Ichigo being a hybrid of everything, or Naruto being the reincarnation of Ninja Jesus, by making Luffy the wielder of the power of a literal god and also the reincarnation of the first ever pirate with very little foreshadowing.
Experienced Editors = "No, don't do that, change it or do something else, shit is retarded."
Inexperienced Editors = "I don't see the problem with this!"
But it works out, because sunk cost investment means that most people who are say, hundreds of chapters and years of time spent as a fan of a story won't be nearly as critical to a story taking a turn for the dogshit unless it's REALLY bad compared to something nosediving immediately. "10 years, at least!"
For example, Kishimoto for Naruto initially wanted to make a fuckload of characters into furries for no reason, and his editor said "Fuck off, you're not Toriyama, just make them humans." (Naruto was initially meant to be the son of the Nine Tailed Fox for example, and other early characters like IIRC Haku was meant to be a fucking bear)
This is why you sometimes see Mangaka (Again, Kishimoto will be the example) go on after a ludicrously successful story, and then end up with little editorial oversight thanks to their influence and respect creating slop that nobody reads and then gets axed, such as the case for Samurai 8.
Lone Star
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I see this claim a lot, but Luffy isn't a reincarnation of anyone. He just has the same Devil Fruit and that's it. And in fairness, the "power of a literal god" just amounts to some pretty basic toonforce.
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- Sep 16, 2024
Everyone keeps calling him "Joy Boy", people mistake him for Joy Boy, for all intents and purposes, it's worse than what even fucking Naruto did with its reincarnation nonsense, because at least there nobody kept calling Naruto Ashura or whatever the fuck.
Also please stop downplaying Luffy's retard level power-up that let him defeat the guy who was endlessly hyped up in an arc that dragged on for fucking ever where Oda gives every character except the strawhats (not named Zoro or Luffy) far too much screentime..
Everything about the Hito Hito model: Nigger is dogshit, and it actively harms the entire story by making you question why the World Government, who were fully aware, didn't do anything. Like, why wasn't CP0 sent to crack Luffy's skull instantly?
I could understand if they didn't know that the rubber fruit was the god fruit, but... they did. They were the ones who made everyone think it was the rubber fruit.
It's just dogshit writing.
One Piece has gone on long enough that Luffy has earned a practically unlimited number of "main character" points, and he comes off as a super chosen one as a result.
- Mysterious vaguely important hat of last pirate king
- 1 in a million ability
- Also has the other two haki too, fuck it why not?
- Voice of Everything (which sorta invalidates Robin being on the crew)
- Friends with a Pirate Emperor (Previously on Pirate King's Crew)
- Blood Brother of Pirate King's Son
- Grandfather is world's most beloved hero
- Father is world's most wanted villain
- Trained by the first mate of the Pirate King
- Actually turns out the fruit that it appeared he was just using creatively to make up for the fact that it wasn't super strong compared to Logias is actually a Mythical Zoan, the strongest variety of Devil Fruit.
But I don't think it's even worth discussing One Piece anymore, the only thing about its ending that will be entertaining will be watching Shonen Jump enter full panic self destruct mode.
Lone Star
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- Nov 10, 2021
No one actually thinks he's Joy Boy, though. And only a small handful of characters call him that. We'll inevitably get a scene where Luffy finds out why people call him Joy Boy or Nika and tell them to knock that shit off. He'll entirely reject any sort of "Chosen One" status any character tries to place on him.
He won against Kaido, but it's not like it was one-sided, he even had to restart his new form and went into a days-long coma when he won. Not to mention Kaido had been fighting for hours by that point. It's not like he transformed and then one-shot Kaido, he still struggled.
Yeah, I can't argue about the whole "Why didn't the World Government just kill him" thing. Only thing I can think of is they assumed he'd never actually awaken the fruit, since no one has in 800 years.
Most of these "main character" points are just common Shonen tropes. Really strong trainers (Master Roshi, Jiraiya), having important bloodlines (Naruto, Goku, and Ichigo has like, every race in the Bleach universe in his background), and unique powers are hardly something only One Piece does. You're just listing common Shonen tropes. Not saying you can't dislike them, but it's not a "One Piece" problem. It's a genre problem.
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- Joined
- Sep 16, 2024
no, it's a One Piece problem.
Goku has some of those tropes, but at the end of the day, he's a nobody. He's a Saiyan, but his father was a nobody, his mother was a nobody, and there's no secret chosen one stuff going on for him.
Ichigo has some, he's a hybrid of every race, sure, his father was a fairly important Shinigami Captain and his mother was a quincy, and he's got his hollow stuff going on.
Naruto has some too, he's got the Nine Tails, his father was the 4th Hokage, and his mother was also vaguely important, (and also he's the reincarnation of Ashura, but nobody fucking liked that there either)
But Luffy has pretty much everything that Naruto, Goku and Luffy have combined, his family and close friends are all unbelievably important, he's got powers that are extremely rare for anybody else to have, there's undoubtedly bloodline shit going on with the whole "D." thing, and despite what you say, a bunch of people in universe seem to believe he is literally Joy Boy, including the fucking robot.
The God Fruit for Luffy is an asspull powerup on the level of "Oh my seven quirks!" from that faggot Deku.
Maybe if you actually paid attention to the point I was making, you'd have realized that.
(but the real issue with One Piece is that Oda has been working himself so hard for so long that the art has degraded to pretty dogshit levels compared to what it once was.)
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- Jan 12, 2017
I liked the comic book look of early arcs long past, too, but Oda has absolutely improved as an artist, especially in the backgrounds, there's a lot of gorgeous double pages showcasing it. It's likely his assistants that're making the art look a little weird to you, though he's also getting older and he not long ago had to get LASIK surgery for his astigmatism.
Oda has a vision of how to get One Piece to the end, but if he wants to goof around with it for a while longer, let him. He just wants to have fun. Toriyama had fun with his manga, and Oda idolized him for that. That's really what matters at the end of the time, is if the creator was able to have fun with his or her creation to the end.
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- Apr 22, 2025
Had an idea for a DB Isekai like story. Was gonna do it like that one Katia Prequel comic where the readers would give their input and decide what to do next.
Basic idea was:
>Zeno's were bored so they got you killed and brought you over, "Entertain us fam, we're dropping you in the DB world. The goal is: Remain relevant up to the ToP"
>Protag would hype: "Yooo, do I get to be a Saiyan and-"
>Zeno: "No, you're a normal human with a power level of 5. Annnd we're dropping you into the village being terrorised by Monster Carrot."
Not a lot would really change with the story. Scenarios would go a bit smoother since there's another team member to assist.
Well nothing major would change until the Androids saga. When Trunks doesn't arrive to confront Freeza and Cold.
>Zeno speaks up via telepathy: "Why would Trunks arrive when you know the future?"
>Protag has to explain a little bit about his situation to Goku and Picollo
>Picollo is understandbly pissed about the secrecy
>Goku is just worried about dying without getting to fight the Androids
>Protag asks Bulma to scan Gokus heart
>Thanks to this, the virus is caught super early a cure is created in time
>But not before the virus takes Goku out for the majority of the Android saga like in the original
>Protag thinks "Well, at least this is sort of like the original?"
Basically some bits of the Android and Cell saga would be different which would freak the protag out "It didn't go like this."
Then the twist with Cell would be made clear when he demands the Protag fights first instead of Goku.
>Cell: "You're worried, you thought Goku was going to fight me for a little while, then Gohan would go SSJ2 and kill me?"
>Protag freaking the fuck out
>Cell explains that while the protag was having fun littles adventures, he neglected to think about something.
>the bot Gero made to monitor the Z-fighters was also monitoring him
>and the Protags DNA and some of his memories are also apart of Cell now
Protag would try bargaining with Cell, "If you know what happens, then why don't you join us?" etc. Doesn't work.
Eventually it works out in the end, Cell is killed by a SSJ2 Gohan. Protag dying is the catalyst that makes Gohan turn SSJ2. (16 is killed off by Cell earlier, because he knows about the speech.)
Saga would end with the protag taking more proactive approach in changing the story going forward.
>Goku is about to give his speech about not coming back.
>Protag grabs his shoulder: "I know what you're thinking. But it doesn't matter."
>Goku realises what the Protag means.
>Goku: "Hurry up and wish us back son!"
Buu saga starts with an alive Goku.
>Zeno's were bored so they got you killed and brought you over, "Entertain us fam, we're dropping you in the DB world. The goal is: Remain relevant up to the ToP"
>Protag would hype: "Yooo, do I get to be a Saiyan and-"
>Zeno: "No, you're a normal human with a power level of 5. Annnd we're dropping you into the village being terrorised by Monster Carrot."
Not a lot would really change with the story. Scenarios would go a bit smoother since there's another team member to assist.
Well nothing major would change until the Androids saga. When Trunks doesn't arrive to confront Freeza and Cold.
>Zeno speaks up via telepathy: "Why would Trunks arrive when you know the future?"
>Protag has to explain a little bit about his situation to Goku and Picollo
>Picollo is understandbly pissed about the secrecy
>Goku is just worried about dying without getting to fight the Androids
>Protag asks Bulma to scan Gokus heart
>Thanks to this, the virus is caught super early a cure is created in time
>But not before the virus takes Goku out for the majority of the Android saga like in the original
>Protag thinks "Well, at least this is sort of like the original?"
Basically some bits of the Android and Cell saga would be different which would freak the protag out "It didn't go like this."
Then the twist with Cell would be made clear when he demands the Protag fights first instead of Goku.
>Cell: "You're worried, you thought Goku was going to fight me for a little while, then Gohan would go SSJ2 and kill me?"
>Protag freaking the fuck out
>Cell explains that while the protag was having fun littles adventures, he neglected to think about something.
>the bot Gero made to monitor the Z-fighters was also monitoring him
>and the Protags DNA and some of his memories are also apart of Cell now
Protag would try bargaining with Cell, "If you know what happens, then why don't you join us?" etc. Doesn't work.
Eventually it works out in the end, Cell is killed by a SSJ2 Gohan. Protag dying is the catalyst that makes Gohan turn SSJ2. (16 is killed off by Cell earlier, because he knows about the speech.)
Saga would end with the protag taking more proactive approach in changing the story going forward.
>Goku is about to give his speech about not coming back.
>Protag grabs his shoulder: "I know what you're thinking. But it doesn't matter."
>Goku realises what the Protag means.
>Goku: "Hurry up and wish us back son!"
Buu saga starts with an alive Goku.
Again, forgive the autism. But point is, you're right. You could do so much with a DB isekai.
Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the Yamcha one was just made to advertise some gacha game iirc.
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- Jul 5, 2023
Y'know as much as I like cell, which is a lot, I do really like the idea of Gero and 19 then later 16-18 being the big bads of that saga. Or flip it and have the kids start off as the bad guys and we get the Oldman and Clown as the final showdown.
Cell genuinely feels like something better suited as an actual alien like Freeza. He's just too advanced and powerful to buy Gero making him, even with DragonBall's retarded SCIENCE! it uses.
Cell genuinely feels like something better suited as an actual alien like Freeza. He's just too advanced and powerful to buy Gero making him, even with DragonBall's retarded SCIENCE! it uses.
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- Sep 16, 2024
Don't you shit on my boy Dr. Gero and his absolutely baffling scientific prowess.
Fucker went from Android 8 and Major Metallitron to creating things literally millions of times stronger in the span of a decade and a bit.
17 and 18 had infinite energy reactors, and 16 had a bomb that Cell was worried could kill him.
17 and 18 are already a good deal stronger than the Emperor of the Universe after all, so I don't see the creation of Cell.
Also, Cell was meant to retain his sci-fi bug monster look, but the editors wanted it changed.
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- Apr 22, 2025
Yeah Earth science and magic has always been shown to be uniquely powerful.
Take the Freeza Force healing chamber as an example, completely dwarfed by a fucking bean of all things.
You need a special ring crafted by the Gods to time travel? lol, not on Earth you don't.
Don't even get me started on Capsule technology, that shit's nuts.
Bro, Earth in DB could be pretty fucking scary if they had the mind to be.
One thing I've always wondered is how powerful of an Android could Bulma make? I know she probably wouldn't make one, but lets say Yamcha at the start of the Cell saga convinces her to turn him into one, how powerful would he be you reckon?
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- Sep 16, 2024
Not very powerful.
Bulma doesn't into robotics.
Time Machines, Space Ships, Laser Guns, Shrink Rays, Unique Energy Locking on Radars, sure.
But not robotics/bio-augmentation.
In her own words, she can barely even understand the blueprints for 17 and 18, and she needed her dad to help out with 16.
Maybe if she had the blueprints, enough time to study, and all the machinery Gero used, then Yamcha would be around as strong as 17 (maybe a little above)
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- Feb 3, 2013
What do you mean? His father was a brilliant scientist
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- Apr 22, 2025
Fair enough. I do like the fact that she isn't a complete know-it-all when it comes to science.
To be fair I've always preferred the idea of the Humans mixing Martial Arts and Magic as an idea to git gud instead of going the tech route.
Shit could be nuts, Kaioken giving you a hard time? Just use magic and cast Regen on yourself to offset that. Hello Kaioken x50+
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- Jan 12, 2017
They weren't ready for perfection at the time.
And by "perfection" I mean "monster-fuckers".
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- Oct 7, 2019
Lone Star
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- Nov 10, 2021
Even the monster space ticks fell into Toriyama's same face syndrome...
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- Sep 16, 2024
Toriyama sameface syndrome is a funny meme, but it's almost completely fabricated.
Just about every single important character Toriyama has ever drawn, you could determine their identity based on just a back and white image of their face alone.
The differences are subtle, but so long as you're not a complete faceblind retard, you can easily accomplish such a thing.
A lot of people like to point out that Gohan looks similar to Goku, but of fucking course he does, he's his son, and even then the differences are there.
Lone Star
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In Chrono Trigger and Dragon Quest it really shines. Like this is literally just Bulma with orange hair.
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- Sep 16, 2024
Comparing any female character Toriyama made to Bulma is a little unfair considering he put Bulma in about 30 different fucking outfits throughout the run of Dragon Ball, complete with different hairstyles.
But even so, it does appear you are a face blind retard, as Bulma typically has larger eyes and her eyebrows are much further up on her head than Marle's are, not to mention the Bulma you're comparing Marle to because she has the same hairstyle (ignoring that Marle's hair is just in a ponytail, and not braided like Bulma) is typically drawn with slightly softer eyes than Marle's.